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Discussion Groups | 68HC12 | HCS12 chip selection [WAS: entry level S12 tools]
Join our technical discussions about Freescale Microcontrollers: M68HC12. (Freescale Semiconductor is a Subsidiary of Motorola).
Re: Re: entry level S12 tools - Author Unknown - Apr 10 3:36:00 2005
Richard,
Thats one point of view, but what I am trying to do is to make S08 and S12 more accessable to more students and hobbyists using the parts rather than PIC and AVRs. What will make for a vibrant 3rd party community will be a wide base of users. In the past much of freescales sales have been concentated on a limited number of huge customers relative to microchip and atmel who have gone for more of a mass market apeal. I hope that the efforst at freegeeks to intoduce the tBDMl with the CW special edditions will go some way to make it easier for new users to get started with freescale mcus which will be a benefit to everyone.
Best Regards
Jim
www.freegeeks.net
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard
To: 68HC12@68HC... ; 68HC12@68HC...
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 12:36 AM
Subject: Re: [68HC12] Re: entry level S12 tools Jim, your arm twisting may just mean less and less support for the
Motorola/Freescale chips. Remember Introl? Motorola used to have the most
3rd party support and now they are doing the darnest to kill off
"competitions." At some points, Freescale will have to break out in their
financial report how much money the Metrowerks division is or is not making.
At 02:43 PM 4/7/2005, jimstuart@jims... wrote:
>Hi guys,
>
>OK finally resurected this old post, you may remember that I posted this
>saying that I was looking for a freeish tool chain for the S12 for students
>and hobbyists, well it is finally here. OK, I wanted a 64K solution but
>after some arm twisting we have now got the free Special Edition of
>Codewarrior up from 12K to 32K. You can download it here
>http://www.metrowerks.com/MW/Develop/Embedded/HC12/Default.htm , strangly it
>doesn't apear to be clear on that page that you get 32K, but it is being
>advertised on the freescale MCU home page.
>
>To partner this we developed the hardware necessary at freegeeks, its the
>TBDML
>http://freegeeks.net/modules.php?name=NukeWrap&page=http://www.freegeeks.net/newwebpages/FDE/webpage.htm
>
>we now also have the PCBs in stock in the online store
>http://www.freegeeks.net/store/ .
>
>All we need now is to get the port working for GDB, TomB, the pressure is on
>;-)
>
>Best Regards
>Jim
>www.freegeeks.net
// richard (This email is for mailing lists. To reach me directly, please
use richard at imagecraft.com)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Thats one point of view, but what I am trying to do is to make S08 and S12 more accessable to more students and hobbyists using the parts rather than PIC and AVRs. What will make for a vibrant 3rd party community will be a wide base of users. In the past much of freescales sales have been concentated on a limited number of huge customers relative to microchip and atmel who have gone for more of a mass market apeal. I hope that the efforst at freegeeks to intoduce the tBDMl with the CW special edditions will go some way to make it easier for new users to get started with freescale mcus which will be a benefit to everyone.
Best Regards
Jim
www.freegeeks.net
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard
To: 68HC12@68HC... ; 68HC12@68HC...
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 12:36 AM
Subject: Re: [68HC12] Re: entry level S12 tools Jim, your arm twisting may just mean less and less support for the
Motorola/Freescale chips. Remember Introl? Motorola used to have the most
3rd party support and now they are doing the darnest to kill off
"competitions." At some points, Freescale will have to break out in their
financial report how much money the Metrowerks division is or is not making.
At 02:43 PM 4/7/2005, jimstuart@jims... wrote:
>Hi guys,
>
>OK finally resurected this old post, you may remember that I posted this
>saying that I was looking for a freeish tool chain for the S12 for students
>and hobbyists, well it is finally here. OK, I wanted a 64K solution but
>after some arm twisting we have now got the free Special Edition of
>Codewarrior up from 12K to 32K. You can download it here
>http://www.metrowerks.com/MW/Develop/Embedded/HC12/Default.htm , strangly it
>doesn't apear to be clear on that page that you get 32K, but it is being
>advertised on the freescale MCU home page.
>
>To partner this we developed the hardware necessary at freegeeks, its the
>TBDML
>http://freegeeks.net/modules.php?name=NukeWrap&page=http://www.freegeeks.net/newwebpages/FDE/webpage.htm
>
>we now also have the PCBs in stock in the online store
>http://www.freegeeks.net/store/ .
>
>All we need now is to get the port working for GDB, TomB, the pressure is on
>;-)
>
>Best Regards
>Jim
>www.freegeeks.net
// richard (This email is for mailing lists. To reach me directly, please
use richard at imagecraft.com)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: Re: entry level S12 tools - Richard - Apr 10 3:52:00 2005
What can I say? We differ on own opinions. You don't need free 32K CW tools
to broaden the appeals to hobbyists and students, you need chips that are
more student friendly, you need memory paging architecture that is easier
to understand to mortals, you need aggressive company policies to work with
students and hobbyists and not just "yes we will work with distribution
channels.... next quarter!" for years running. It is true that Microchip
and Atmel have a broader mas market appeal, but not because of free 32K
compiler tools.
What you are doing is killing off 3rd party vendor interests. I am sorry to
say that IMHO your effort is misguided.
At 12:36 AM 4/10/2005, jimstuart@jims... wrote:
>Richard,
>
>Thats one point of view, but what I am trying to do is to make S08 and S12
>more accessable to more students and hobbyists using the parts rather than
>PIC and AVRs. What will make for a vibrant 3rd party community will be a
>wide base of users. In the past much of freescales sales have been
>concentated on a limited number of huge customers relative to microchip
>and atmel who have gone for more of a mass market apeal. I hope that the
>efforst at freegeeks to intoduce the tBDMl with the CW special edditions
>will go some way to make it easier for new users to get started with
>freescale mcus which will be a benefit to everyone.
>
>Best Regards
>Jim
>www.freegeeks.net
// richard (This email is for mailing lists. To reach me directly, please
use richard at imagecraft.com)
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
to broaden the appeals to hobbyists and students, you need chips that are
more student friendly, you need memory paging architecture that is easier
to understand to mortals, you need aggressive company policies to work with
students and hobbyists and not just "yes we will work with distribution
channels.... next quarter!" for years running. It is true that Microchip
and Atmel have a broader mas market appeal, but not because of free 32K
compiler tools.
What you are doing is killing off 3rd party vendor interests. I am sorry to
say that IMHO your effort is misguided.
At 12:36 AM 4/10/2005, jimstuart@jims... wrote:
>Richard,
>
>Thats one point of view, but what I am trying to do is to make S08 and S12
>more accessable to more students and hobbyists using the parts rather than
>PIC and AVRs. What will make for a vibrant 3rd party community will be a
>wide base of users. In the past much of freescales sales have been
>concentated on a limited number of huge customers relative to microchip
>and atmel who have gone for more of a mass market apeal. I hope that the
>efforst at freegeeks to intoduce the tBDMl with the CW special edditions
>will go some way to make it easier for new users to get started with
>freescale mcus which will be a benefit to everyone.
>
>Best Regards
>Jim
>www.freegeeks.net
// richard (This email is for mailing lists. To reach me directly, please
use richard at imagecraft.com)
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: Re: entry level S12 tools - Gary Olmstead - Apr 10 22:55:00 2005
One thing that nobody has speculated on is the impact of the BASIC
STAMP. Cheap, readily available, easy to use, lots of peripheral functions
(motor and display drivers etc) that are equally easy to use. Hard to beat
for hobbyists and people who just want to try a wild idea that woke them up
at 2 AM.
No, I don't know how Freescale could/should respond. Any ideas out there?
Gary Olmstead
Toucan Technology
Ventura CA
www.toucantechnology.com
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
STAMP. Cheap, readily available, easy to use, lots of peripheral functions
(motor and display drivers etc) that are equally easy to use. Hard to beat
for hobbyists and people who just want to try a wild idea that woke them up
at 2 AM.
No, I don't know how Freescale could/should respond. Any ideas out there?
Gary Olmstead
Toucan Technology
Ventura CA
www.toucantechnology.com
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: Re: entry level S12 tools - Steve Russell - Apr 11 14:08:00 2005
Perhaps the problem here is the "business model".
What most students need is an inexpensive, easy to travel road to getting
results.
They grumble, but are resigned to "reasonable" lab fees.
After they get confidence with the tools and get to the end of the first
section of the road, some decide its not something they want to do again,
and some want to go on the more ambitious efforts.
Many of the students are not in formal classes with a schedule, so their
time down the road will not be fixed on the calendar.
The trick here is to arrange reasonable "by term" or "by road segment"
licensing with "reasonable" lab fees for the students in a way that doesn't
steal from sales to serious commercial users or make unreasonable demands
for support.
Tying an really inexpensive licence to user group support, a time limit and
a particular instance of a board, with a clear and reasonable "road map" of
upgrades for the "next term" and "serious hobbyist" use could provide a way
to operate without serious loss.
ImageCraft C, the HCS12 hardware, and especially CodeWarrior are all
lacking in straightforward tutorials, examples, and FAQ's for beginners, as
evidenced by the mail to this list.
Perhaps the teachers and their assistants out there have some thoughts?
Steve Russell
Nohau Emulators At 12:52 AM 4/10/2005, <richard-lists@rich...> wrote:
>What can I say? We differ on own opinions. You don't need free 32K CW tools
>to broaden the appeals to hobbyists and students, you need chips that are
>more student friendly, you need memory paging architecture that is easier
>to understand to mortals, you need aggressive company policies to work with
>students and hobbyists and not just "yes we will work with distribution
>channels.... next quarter!" for years running. It is true that Microchip
>and Atmel have a broader mas market appeal, but not because of free 32K
>compiler tools.
>
>What you are doing is killing off 3rd party vendor interests. I am sorry to
>say that IMHO your effort is misguided.
>
>At 12:36 AM 4/10/2005, jimstuart@jims... wrote:
> >Richard,
> >
> >Thats one point of view, but what I am trying to do is to make S08 and S12
> >more accessable to more students and hobbyists using the parts rather than
> >PIC and AVRs. What will make for a vibrant 3rd party community will be a
> >wide base of users. In the past much of freescales sales have been
> >concentated on a limited number of huge customers relative to microchip
> >and atmel who have gone for more of a mass market apeal. I hope that the
> >efforst at freegeeks to intoduce the tBDMl with the CW special edditions
> >will go some way to make it easier for new users to get started with
> >freescale mcus which will be a benefit to everyone.
> >
> >Best Regards
> >Jim
> >www.freegeeks.net
>
>// richard (This email is for mailing lists. To reach me directly, please
>use richard at imagecraft.com) >
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
What most students need is an inexpensive, easy to travel road to getting
results.
They grumble, but are resigned to "reasonable" lab fees.
After they get confidence with the tools and get to the end of the first
section of the road, some decide its not something they want to do again,
and some want to go on the more ambitious efforts.
Many of the students are not in formal classes with a schedule, so their
time down the road will not be fixed on the calendar.
The trick here is to arrange reasonable "by term" or "by road segment"
licensing with "reasonable" lab fees for the students in a way that doesn't
steal from sales to serious commercial users or make unreasonable demands
for support.
Tying an really inexpensive licence to user group support, a time limit and
a particular instance of a board, with a clear and reasonable "road map" of
upgrades for the "next term" and "serious hobbyist" use could provide a way
to operate without serious loss.
ImageCraft C, the HCS12 hardware, and especially CodeWarrior are all
lacking in straightforward tutorials, examples, and FAQ's for beginners, as
evidenced by the mail to this list.
Perhaps the teachers and their assistants out there have some thoughts?
Steve Russell
Nohau Emulators At 12:52 AM 4/10/2005, <richard-lists@rich...> wrote:
>What can I say? We differ on own opinions. You don't need free 32K CW tools
>to broaden the appeals to hobbyists and students, you need chips that are
>more student friendly, you need memory paging architecture that is easier
>to understand to mortals, you need aggressive company policies to work with
>students and hobbyists and not just "yes we will work with distribution
>channels.... next quarter!" for years running. It is true that Microchip
>and Atmel have a broader mas market appeal, but not because of free 32K
>compiler tools.
>
>What you are doing is killing off 3rd party vendor interests. I am sorry to
>say that IMHO your effort is misguided.
>
>At 12:36 AM 4/10/2005, jimstuart@jims... wrote:
> >Richard,
> >
> >Thats one point of view, but what I am trying to do is to make S08 and S12
> >more accessable to more students and hobbyists using the parts rather than
> >PIC and AVRs. What will make for a vibrant 3rd party community will be a
> >wide base of users. In the past much of freescales sales have been
> >concentated on a limited number of huge customers relative to microchip
> >and atmel who have gone for more of a mass market apeal. I hope that the
> >efforst at freegeeks to intoduce the tBDMl with the CW special edditions
> >will go some way to make it easier for new users to get started with
> >freescale mcus which will be a benefit to everyone.
> >
> >Best Regards
> >Jim
> >www.freegeeks.net
>
>// richard (This email is for mailing lists. To reach me directly, please
>use richard at imagecraft.com) >
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: Re: entry level S12 tools - Richard - Apr 11 14:23:00 2005
At 11:08 AM 4/11/2005, Steve Russell wrote:
>....
>
>ImageCraft C, the HCS12 hardware, and especially CodeWarrior are all
>lacking in straightforward tutorials, examples, and FAQ's for beginners, as
>evidenced by the mail to this list.
This I can agree with. You cannot have too many tutorials and examples.
Currently for the HC12/S12 we have some examples but by and large rely on
the board vendors to provide more. On our other products like the
AVR/ARM/430, we have a very good GUI Application Builder that can get users
started.
Some reasons that we don't have more examples and the AppBuilder for the
12/S12 is the Motorola/Freescale releasing a new device every other week
symptom. How many Dabcdefg...256 are there? Which ones will be most
interesting to our customers? It's like a huge matrix of
<letter><letter>32/64/128/256/512
I suppose most are for automotive uses and most mortals would not consider
using a majority in their everyday design, but how do we sort it out? We do
not get any clarification from Motorola/Freescale.
Then of course you have the DBUG-12/BDM/bootloade monitor problem. When you
write a tutorial, what do you assume the user would have? It's really a mess...
>Perhaps the teachers and their assistants out there have some thoughts?
>
> Steve Russell
> Nohau Emulators >At 12:52 AM 4/10/2005, <richard-lists@rich...> wrote:
>
> >What can I say? We differ on own opinions. You don't need free 32K CW tools
> >to broaden the appeals to hobbyists and students, you need chips that are
> >more student friendly, you need memory paging architecture that is easier
> >to understand to mortals, you need aggressive company policies to work with
> >students and hobbyists and not just "yes we will work with distribution
> >channels.... next quarter!" for years running. It is true that Microchip
> >and Atmel have a broader mas market appeal, but not because of free 32K
> >compiler tools.
> >
> >What you are doing is killing off 3rd party vendor interests. I am sorry to
> >say that IMHO your effort is misguided.
> >
> >At 12:36 AM 4/10/2005, jimstuart@jims... wrote:
> > >Richard,
> > >
> > >Thats one point of view, but what I am trying to do is to make S08 and S12
> > >more accessable to more students and hobbyists using the parts rather than
> > >PIC and AVRs. What will make for a vibrant 3rd party community will be a
> > >wide base of users. In the past much of freescales sales have been
> > >concentated on a limited number of huge customers relative to microchip
> > >and atmel who have gone for more of a mass market apeal. I hope that the
> > >efforst at freegeeks to intoduce the tBDMl with the CW special edditions
> > >will go some way to make it easier for new users to get started with
> > >freescale mcus which will be a benefit to everyone.
> > >
> > >Best Regards
> > >Jim
> > >www.freegeeks.net
> >
> >// richard (This email is for mailing lists. To reach me directly, please
> >use richard at imagecraft.com)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links // richard (This email is for mailing lists. To reach me directly, please
use richard at imagecraft.com)
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
>....
>
>ImageCraft C, the HCS12 hardware, and especially CodeWarrior are all
>lacking in straightforward tutorials, examples, and FAQ's for beginners, as
>evidenced by the mail to this list.
This I can agree with. You cannot have too many tutorials and examples.
Currently for the HC12/S12 we have some examples but by and large rely on
the board vendors to provide more. On our other products like the
AVR/ARM/430, we have a very good GUI Application Builder that can get users
started.
Some reasons that we don't have more examples and the AppBuilder for the
12/S12 is the Motorola/Freescale releasing a new device every other week
symptom. How many Dabcdefg...256 are there? Which ones will be most
interesting to our customers? It's like a huge matrix of
<letter><letter>32/64/128/256/512
I suppose most are for automotive uses and most mortals would not consider
using a majority in their everyday design, but how do we sort it out? We do
not get any clarification from Motorola/Freescale.
Then of course you have the DBUG-12/BDM/bootloade monitor problem. When you
write a tutorial, what do you assume the user would have? It's really a mess...
>Perhaps the teachers and their assistants out there have some thoughts?
>
> Steve Russell
> Nohau Emulators >At 12:52 AM 4/10/2005, <richard-lists@rich...> wrote:
>
> >What can I say? We differ on own opinions. You don't need free 32K CW tools
> >to broaden the appeals to hobbyists and students, you need chips that are
> >more student friendly, you need memory paging architecture that is easier
> >to understand to mortals, you need aggressive company policies to work with
> >students and hobbyists and not just "yes we will work with distribution
> >channels.... next quarter!" for years running. It is true that Microchip
> >and Atmel have a broader mas market appeal, but not because of free 32K
> >compiler tools.
> >
> >What you are doing is killing off 3rd party vendor interests. I am sorry to
> >say that IMHO your effort is misguided.
> >
> >At 12:36 AM 4/10/2005, jimstuart@jims... wrote:
> > >Richard,
> > >
> > >Thats one point of view, but what I am trying to do is to make S08 and S12
> > >more accessable to more students and hobbyists using the parts rather than
> > >PIC and AVRs. What will make for a vibrant 3rd party community will be a
> > >wide base of users. In the past much of freescales sales have been
> > >concentated on a limited number of huge customers relative to microchip
> > >and atmel who have gone for more of a mass market apeal. I hope that the
> > >efforst at freegeeks to intoduce the tBDMl with the CW special edditions
> > >will go some way to make it easier for new users to get started with
> > >freescale mcus which will be a benefit to everyone.
> > >
> > >Best Regards
> > >Jim
> > >www.freegeeks.net
> >
> >// richard (This email is for mailing lists. To reach me directly, please
> >use richard at imagecraft.com)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links // richard (This email is for mailing lists. To reach me directly, please
use richard at imagecraft.com)
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: entry level S12 tools - theobee00 - Apr 11 19:11:00 2005
--- In 68HC12@68HC..., Richard <richard-lists@i...> wrote:
> I suppose most are for automotive uses and most mortals would not consider
> using a majority in their everyday design, but how do we sort it out? We do
> not get any clarification from Motorola/Freescale.
I tackled it from the other end, asked the distributers what they stock and see if any match requirements.
In our case we found the S type in 64 and 256k readily available in any quantity, for most apps for amateur or student use 64k is plenty, leave the esoterics for the professionals.
Cheers,
Theo
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Re: Re: entry level S12 tools - Salvador Tenorio - Apr 11 21:35:00 2005
Why would you need a tutorial for using imagecraft compilers? They are already easy
to use. Besides, in my old days with HC05 HC11 HC16 (early 90's) we didn't have many
choices and certainly not the internet, so we did have to work ourselves. These days, kids
at school don't want to do anything, they go to the internet and ask for everything and if
it is done already much better. Do you remember the 17 yo that was posting a few weeks ago
that didn't RTFM? Well, just like him there are many. All ask: is there a timer program?
Is there a serial driver? is there an SCI program working? A motor driver? An LCD
controller..... the list goes on and on... when do they start really designing? Sigh...
This is the era of coders (programmers) insead of engineers, even though they call
themselves engineers... what a joke (sometimes).
It is fine to ask when you have tried and cannot figure it out, but these days they don't even want to figure out even how to make the compiler work!! Salvador Tenorio
---------------------------------
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It is fine to ask when you have tried and cannot figure it out, but these days they don't even want to figure out even how to make the compiler work!! Salvador Tenorio
---------------------------------
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Re: Re: entry level S12 tools - Andrew Lohmann - Apr 12 4:29:00 2005
It would be a good idea if Freescale would modify AN2485 so that it was
generic not CodeWarior specific. This is an invaluable set of headers,
and programmes which set you up, get you going, and define most processors.
Steve Russell wrote:
> ImageCraft C, the HCS12 hardware, and especially CodeWarrior are all
> lacking in straightforward tutorials, examples, and FAQ's for
> beginners, as
> evidenced by the mail to this list.
>
> Perhaps the teachers and their assistants out there have some thoughts?
I think it important to avoid information overload, but all the
information needs to be there and not scattered about, and varied
between documents. I have only found answerers to things about Cosmic C
for example by asking the maker or through this forum. But then, I have
also found answerers on right angle v radius PCB track bends in this
forum as well. On varied information for example I think the best track
layout for the crystal oscillator can be achieved on one side of your
PCB a 1nF cap in the GND lead of the crystal, as described in a
Freescale manual, but in other App. notes there is little mention of
this solution.
Andrew Lohmann AMIIE
Design Engineer
PLEASE NOTE NEW EMAIL ADDRESS IS:
andrew.lohmann@andr...
Bellingham + Stanley Ltd.
Longfield Road, Tunbridge Wells, Kent, TN2 3EY, England.
Tel: +44 (0) 1892 500400
Fax: +44 (0) 1892 543115
Website: www.bs-ltd.com
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-----------------------------Disclaimer-----------------------------
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
generic not CodeWarior specific. This is an invaluable set of headers,
and programmes which set you up, get you going, and define most processors.
Steve Russell wrote:
> ImageCraft C, the HCS12 hardware, and especially CodeWarrior are all
> lacking in straightforward tutorials, examples, and FAQ's for
> beginners, as
> evidenced by the mail to this list.
>
> Perhaps the teachers and their assistants out there have some thoughts?
I think it important to avoid information overload, but all the
information needs to be there and not scattered about, and varied
between documents. I have only found answerers to things about Cosmic C
for example by asking the maker or through this forum. But then, I have
also found answerers on right angle v radius PCB track bends in this
forum as well. On varied information for example I think the best track
layout for the crystal oscillator can be achieved on one side of your
PCB a 1nF cap in the GND lead of the crystal, as described in a
Freescale manual, but in other App. notes there is little mention of
this solution.
Andrew Lohmann AMIIE
Design Engineer
PLEASE NOTE NEW EMAIL ADDRESS IS:
andrew.lohmann@andr...
Bellingham + Stanley Ltd.
Longfield Road, Tunbridge Wells, Kent, TN2 3EY, England.
Tel: +44 (0) 1892 500400
Fax: +44 (0) 1892 543115
Website: www.bs-ltd.com
-----------------------------Disclaimer-----------------------------
This communication contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the addressee. If you are not the addressee please note that any distribution, reproduction, copying, publication or use of this communication or the information is prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please contact us immediately and also delete the communication from your computer. We accept no liability for any loss or damage suffered by any person arising from use of this e-mail.
-----------------------------Disclaimer-----------------------------
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: Re: entry level S12 tools - Gary Olmstead - Apr 12 12:10:00 2005
At 11:23 AM 4/11/05, you wrote:
>How many Dabcdefg...256 are there? Which ones will be most
>interesting to our customers? It's like a huge matrix of
>
><letter><letter>32/64/128/256/512
>
>I suppose most are for automotive uses and most mortals would not consider
>using a majority in their everyday design, but how do we sort it out? We do
>not get any clarification from Motorola/Freescale.
Well, as a consultant who is trying to make the same guess as to which ones
I should own the development systems for, I agree completely.
Gary Olmstead
Toucan Technology
Ventura CA
www.toucantechnology.com
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
>How many Dabcdefg...256 are there? Which ones will be most
>interesting to our customers? It's like a huge matrix of
>
><letter><letter>32/64/128/256/512
>
>I suppose most are for automotive uses and most mortals would not consider
>using a majority in their everyday design, but how do we sort it out? We do
>not get any clarification from Motorola/Freescale.
Well, as a consultant who is trying to make the same guess as to which ones
I should own the development systems for, I agree completely.
Gary Olmstead
Toucan Technology
Ventura CA
www.toucantechnology.com
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: Re: entry level S12 tools - Gary Olmstead - Apr 12 12:40:00 2005
At 06:35 PM 4/11/05, you wrote:
>Why would you need a tutorial for using imagecraft compilers?
I wasn't talking about compilers, but about the hardware peripherals on the
chips.
>These days, kids at school don't want to do anything, they go to the
>internet and ask for everything and if it is done already much better.
Well, that is the conundrum, isn't it? Do you get an answer in an hour,
but not learn anything, or spend the better part of a week solving a
problem, and really understand everything? Got your answer ready? Now,
ask your boss the same question when your project is a month behind
schedule, and HIS annual bonus is riding on on-time delivery....
>Besides, in my old days with HC05 HC11 HC16 (early 90's)
Just as a matter of interest, I started on the MC68705P3, back when even
Motorola didn't know the answers to many of my questions. Those were the
days, may they never come again.
You know, there are two paths for the rest of us. Moan about these darn
kids these days and how they don't know anything, and don't want to learn
anything ... OR... accept the situation, and figure out how to make a
profit out of it. And before you complain about THAT, let me recommend
that you study the corporate history and product line of Maxim. Maxim
started out by second sourcing all the data acquisition products of the
companies that their engineers had previously worked at, and their
marketing campaign consisted of having a road show for engineers. I was at
one of those where the speaker was complaining about these darn kids these
days, and how none of them (meaning us, his audience) could design an
on-board DC-DC converter to make the +- 12V supplies to run an RS232
link. Well, sir, the very next product from Maxim was the MAX232, which I
later heard had the steepest increasing sales curve in the history of
analog. If you look at Maxim today, you see a very successful company that
takes the heavy lifting out of analog for digital engineers who have to use
analog.
So, it's your(our) choice. Complain, or accept the situation and get rich
(maybe).
Gary Olmstead
Toucan Technology
Ventura CA
www.toucantechnology.com
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
>Why would you need a tutorial for using imagecraft compilers?
I wasn't talking about compilers, but about the hardware peripherals on the
chips.
>These days, kids at school don't want to do anything, they go to the
>internet and ask for everything and if it is done already much better.
Well, that is the conundrum, isn't it? Do you get an answer in an hour,
but not learn anything, or spend the better part of a week solving a
problem, and really understand everything? Got your answer ready? Now,
ask your boss the same question when your project is a month behind
schedule, and HIS annual bonus is riding on on-time delivery....
>Besides, in my old days with HC05 HC11 HC16 (early 90's)
Just as a matter of interest, I started on the MC68705P3, back when even
Motorola didn't know the answers to many of my questions. Those were the
days, may they never come again.
You know, there are two paths for the rest of us. Moan about these darn
kids these days and how they don't know anything, and don't want to learn
anything ... OR... accept the situation, and figure out how to make a
profit out of it. And before you complain about THAT, let me recommend
that you study the corporate history and product line of Maxim. Maxim
started out by second sourcing all the data acquisition products of the
companies that their engineers had previously worked at, and their
marketing campaign consisted of having a road show for engineers. I was at
one of those where the speaker was complaining about these darn kids these
days, and how none of them (meaning us, his audience) could design an
on-board DC-DC converter to make the +- 12V supplies to run an RS232
link. Well, sir, the very next product from Maxim was the MAX232, which I
later heard had the steepest increasing sales curve in the history of
analog. If you look at Maxim today, you see a very successful company that
takes the heavy lifting out of analog for digital engineers who have to use
analog.
So, it's your(our) choice. Complain, or accept the situation and get rich
(maybe).
Gary Olmstead
Toucan Technology
Ventura CA
www.toucantechnology.com
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
HCS12 chip selection [WAS: entry level S12 tools] - Michal Konieczny - Apr 13 9:32:00 2005
>>How many Dabcdefg...256 are there? Which ones will be most
>>interesting to our customers? It's like a huge matrix of
>>
>><letter><letter>32/64/128/256/512
>>
>>I suppose most are for automotive uses and most mortals would not consider
>>using a majority in their everyday design, but how do we sort it out? We do
>>not get any clarification from Motorola/Freescale.
I think that many of us are in the same position - looking at quite a
long list of available derivatives, with no clue what to choose,
especially when differences are very minor sometimes.
As HC11 is leaving the stage, I'm looking for the HC11F1 replacement.
HCS12 suits the bill - we need 32..64kB of FLASH, I2C, sometimes second
SCI, no CAN. HCS12 is great at first sight, but availability is one of
the main concerns for us - our production volume is low, we cannot order
parts and wait several months for them, must be almost off-the-shelf.
So I made some homework and checked current availability of HCS12 lineup
using www.findchips.com. This is rough approximation, but gives some
hints. Number after the semicolon is distributor count stating that part
is in-stock, "-" when not available at all.
MC9S12A64: 2
MC9S12A128: 3
MC9S12A256: 4
MC9S12A512: 1
MC9S12B64: -
MC9S12B128: -
MC9S12B256: -
MC9S12C32: 3
MC9S12C64: -
MC9S12C96: -
MC9S12C128: -
MC9S12D32: -
MC9S12D64: 3
MC9S12DB128: 3
MC9S12DG128: 3
MC9S12DG256: 4
MC9S12DJ64: 1
MC9S12DJ128: 4
MC9S12DJ256: 2
MC9S12DP256: 5
MC9S12DP512: -
MC9S12DT128: 3
MC9S12DT256: 3
MC9S12E64: 3
MC9S12E128: 4
MC9S12GC16: -
MC9S12GC32: -
MC9S12GC64: -
MC9S12GC96: -
MC9S12GC128: -
MC9S12H128: -
MC9S12H256: 2
MC9S12KG128: -
MC9S12KT256: -
MC9S12NE64: 4
MC9S12T64: -
MC9S12UF32: 2
These stats give me some hints: A,D,E families are generally available.
Specialty NE and UF also. B,C,GC,H,K,T families are rare and exotic,
maybe just too new.
I assume from the above that I can safely design around A64/D64. They
are sufficiently generic, fit out peripheral requirements, and are
available.
Did I miss something obvious ?
Best regards,
--
Michal Konieczny
mk@mk@....
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
>>interesting to our customers? It's like a huge matrix of
>>
>><letter><letter>32/64/128/256/512
>>
>>I suppose most are for automotive uses and most mortals would not consider
>>using a majority in their everyday design, but how do we sort it out? We do
>>not get any clarification from Motorola/Freescale.
I think that many of us are in the same position - looking at quite a
long list of available derivatives, with no clue what to choose,
especially when differences are very minor sometimes.
As HC11 is leaving the stage, I'm looking for the HC11F1 replacement.
HCS12 suits the bill - we need 32..64kB of FLASH, I2C, sometimes second
SCI, no CAN. HCS12 is great at first sight, but availability is one of
the main concerns for us - our production volume is low, we cannot order
parts and wait several months for them, must be almost off-the-shelf.
So I made some homework and checked current availability of HCS12 lineup
using www.findchips.com. This is rough approximation, but gives some
hints. Number after the semicolon is distributor count stating that part
is in-stock, "-" when not available at all.
MC9S12A64: 2
MC9S12A128: 3
MC9S12A256: 4
MC9S12A512: 1
MC9S12B64: -
MC9S12B128: -
MC9S12B256: -
MC9S12C32: 3
MC9S12C64: -
MC9S12C96: -
MC9S12C128: -
MC9S12D32: -
MC9S12D64: 3
MC9S12DB128: 3
MC9S12DG128: 3
MC9S12DG256: 4
MC9S12DJ64: 1
MC9S12DJ128: 4
MC9S12DJ256: 2
MC9S12DP256: 5
MC9S12DP512: -
MC9S12DT128: 3
MC9S12DT256: 3
MC9S12E64: 3
MC9S12E128: 4
MC9S12GC16: -
MC9S12GC32: -
MC9S12GC64: -
MC9S12GC96: -
MC9S12GC128: -
MC9S12H128: -
MC9S12H256: 2
MC9S12KG128: -
MC9S12KT256: -
MC9S12NE64: 4
MC9S12T64: -
MC9S12UF32: 2
These stats give me some hints: A,D,E families are generally available.
Specialty NE and UF also. B,C,GC,H,K,T families are rare and exotic,
maybe just too new.
I assume from the above that I can safely design around A64/D64. They
are sufficiently generic, fit out peripheral requirements, and are
available.
Did I miss something obvious ?
Best regards,
--
Michal Konieczny
mk@mk@....
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: HCS12 chip selection [WAS: entry level S12 tools] - Andrew Lohmann - Apr 13 9:45:00 2005
Michal Konieczny wrote: > This is rough approximation, but gives some
> hints. Number after the semicolon is distributor count stating that part
> is in-stock, "-" when not available at all.
>
> MC9S12A64: 2
> MC9S12A128: 3
> MC9S12A256: 4
> MC9S12A512: 1
> MC9S12B64: -
> MC9S12B128: -
> MC9S12B256: -
> MC9S12C32: 3
> MC9S12C64: -
> MC9S12C96: -
> MC9S12C128: -
> MC9S12D32: -
> MC9S12D64: 3
> MC9S12DB128: 3
> MC9S12DG128: 3
> MC9S12DG256: 4
> MC9S12DJ64: 1
> MC9S12DJ128: 4
> MC9S12DJ256: 2
> MC9S12DP256: 5
> MC9S12DP512: -
> MC9S12DT128: 3
> MC9S12DT256: 3
> MC9S12E64: 3
> MC9S12E128: 4
> MC9S12GC16: -
> MC9S12GC32: -
> MC9S12GC64: -
> MC9S12GC96: -
> MC9S12GC128: -
> MC9S12H128: -
> MC9S12H256: 2
> MC9S12KG128: -
> MC9S12KT256: -
> MC9S12NE64: 4
> MC9S12T64: -
> MC9S12UF32: 2
>
> These stats give me some hints: A,D,E families are generally available.
> Specialty NE and UF also. B,C,GC,H,K,T families are rare and exotic,
> maybe just too new.
> I assume from the above that I can safely design around A64/D64. They
> are sufficiently generic, fit out peripheral requirements, and are
> available.
> Did I miss something obvious ?
> **
The E's have fewer errata's than the MC9S12Dx256B for example. It is
disappointing is that MC9S12E256 is not manufactured yet though.
Andrew Lohmann AMIIE
Design Engineer
PLEASE NOTE NEW EMAIL ADDRESS IS:
andrew.lohmann@andr...
Bellingham + Stanley Ltd.
Longfield Road, Tunbridge Wells, Kent, TN2 3EY, England.
Tel: +44 (0) 1892 500400
Fax: +44 (0) 1892 543115
Website: www.bs-ltd.com
-----------------------------Disclaimer-----------------------------
This communication contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the addressee. If you are not the addressee please note that any distribution, reproduction, copying, publication or use of this communication or the information is prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please contact us immediately and also delete the communication from your computer. We accept no liability for any loss or damage suffered by any person arising from use of this e-mail.
-----------------------------Disclaimer----------------------------- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: HCS12 chip selection [WAS: entry level S12 tools] - Edward Karpicz - Apr 13 10:34:00 2005
Hi
Don't forget to check availability by type of package xPV vs xFU.
A64/D64/DJ64 is good choice I think. You don't need CAN so buy A64 when
available, look for D64 or DJ64 when there are no A64.
A64=D64/DJ64-CAN-BDLC. If 80pin package is OK for you then check the
differences between A64CFU and C32CFU too. Thay are almost PCB compatible.
The difference is C32 doesn't have EEPROM, second SCI and probably I2C.
Think about emulating eeprom using flash, bitbanging SCI and I2C. If you
don't mind playing bit more around easily retargetable C32/64<->A64 software
you may protect your self bit better.
Of course Dx128/Dx256 are also quite compatible with A64/D64, though more
expensive. The biggest difference between x128,x256 and x64 parts is in
memory maps. Other nuisances include: XCLKS meaning, size of flash banks,
meaning of MODRR bits etc. But pinouts are very similar.
Edward
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michal Konieczny" <mk@mk@....>
To: <68HC12@68HC...>
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 4:32 PM
Subject: [68HC12] HCS12 chip selection [WAS: entry level S12 tools] >
>>>How many Dabcdefg...256 are there? Which ones will be most
>>>interesting to our customers? It's like a huge matrix of
>>>
>>><letter><letter>32/64/128/256/512
>>>
>>>I suppose most are for automotive uses and most mortals would not
>>>consider
>>>using a majority in their everyday design, but how do we sort it out? We
>>>do
>>>not get any clarification from Motorola/Freescale.
>
> I think that many of us are in the same position - looking at quite a
> long list of available derivatives, with no clue what to choose,
> especially when differences are very minor sometimes.
> As HC11 is leaving the stage, I'm looking for the HC11F1 replacement.
> HCS12 suits the bill - we need 32..64kB of FLASH, I2C, sometimes second
> SCI, no CAN. HCS12 is great at first sight, but availability is one of
> the main concerns for us - our production volume is low, we cannot order
> parts and wait several months for them, must be almost off-the-shelf.
> So I made some homework and checked current availability of HCS12 lineup
> using www.findchips.com. This is rough approximation, but gives some
> hints. Number after the semicolon is distributor count stating that part
> is in-stock, "-" when not available at all.
>
> MC9S12A64: 2
> MC9S12A128: 3
> MC9S12A256: 4
> MC9S12A512: 1
> MC9S12B64: -
> MC9S12B128: -
> MC9S12B256: -
> MC9S12C32: 3
> MC9S12C64: -
> MC9S12C96: -
> MC9S12C128: -
> MC9S12D32: -
> MC9S12D64: 3
> MC9S12DB128: 3
> MC9S12DG128: 3
> MC9S12DG256: 4
> MC9S12DJ64: 1
> MC9S12DJ128: 4
> MC9S12DJ256: 2
> MC9S12DP256: 5
> MC9S12DP512: -
> MC9S12DT128: 3
> MC9S12DT256: 3
> MC9S12E64: 3
> MC9S12E128: 4
> MC9S12GC16: -
> MC9S12GC32: -
> MC9S12GC64: -
> MC9S12GC96: -
> MC9S12GC128: -
> MC9S12H128: -
> MC9S12H256: 2
> MC9S12KG128: -
> MC9S12KT256: -
> MC9S12NE64: 4
> MC9S12T64: -
> MC9S12UF32: 2
>
> These stats give me some hints: A,D,E families are generally available.
> Specialty NE and UF also. B,C,GC,H,K,T families are rare and exotic,
> maybe just too new.
> I assume from the above that I can safely design around A64/D64. They
> are sufficiently generic, fit out peripheral requirements, and are
> available.
> Did I miss something obvious ?
>
> Best regards,
>
> --
> Michal Konieczny
> mk@mk@.... >
> Yahoo! Groups Links
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Don't forget to check availability by type of package xPV vs xFU.
A64/D64/DJ64 is good choice I think. You don't need CAN so buy A64 when
available, look for D64 or DJ64 when there are no A64.
A64=D64/DJ64-CAN-BDLC. If 80pin package is OK for you then check the
differences between A64CFU and C32CFU too. Thay are almost PCB compatible.
The difference is C32 doesn't have EEPROM, second SCI and probably I2C.
Think about emulating eeprom using flash, bitbanging SCI and I2C. If you
don't mind playing bit more around easily retargetable C32/64<->A64 software
you may protect your self bit better.
Of course Dx128/Dx256 are also quite compatible with A64/D64, though more
expensive. The biggest difference between x128,x256 and x64 parts is in
memory maps. Other nuisances include: XCLKS meaning, size of flash banks,
meaning of MODRR bits etc. But pinouts are very similar.
Edward
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michal Konieczny" <mk@mk@....>
To: <68HC12@68HC...>
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 4:32 PM
Subject: [68HC12] HCS12 chip selection [WAS: entry level S12 tools] >
>>>How many Dabcdefg...256 are there? Which ones will be most
>>>interesting to our customers? It's like a huge matrix of
>>>
>>><letter><letter>32/64/128/256/512
>>>
>>>I suppose most are for automotive uses and most mortals would not
>>>consider
>>>using a majority in their everyday design, but how do we sort it out? We
>>>do
>>>not get any clarification from Motorola/Freescale.
>
> I think that many of us are in the same position - looking at quite a
> long list of available derivatives, with no clue what to choose,
> especially when differences are very minor sometimes.
> As HC11 is leaving the stage, I'm looking for the HC11F1 replacement.
> HCS12 suits the bill - we need 32..64kB of FLASH, I2C, sometimes second
> SCI, no CAN. HCS12 is great at first sight, but availability is one of
> the main concerns for us - our production volume is low, we cannot order
> parts and wait several months for them, must be almost off-the-shelf.
> So I made some homework and checked current availability of HCS12 lineup
> using www.findchips.com. This is rough approximation, but gives some
> hints. Number after the semicolon is distributor count stating that part
> is in-stock, "-" when not available at all.
>
> MC9S12A64: 2
> MC9S12A128: 3
> MC9S12A256: 4
> MC9S12A512: 1
> MC9S12B64: -
> MC9S12B128: -
> MC9S12B256: -
> MC9S12C32: 3
> MC9S12C64: -
> MC9S12C96: -
> MC9S12C128: -
> MC9S12D32: -
> MC9S12D64: 3
> MC9S12DB128: 3
> MC9S12DG128: 3
> MC9S12DG256: 4
> MC9S12DJ64: 1
> MC9S12DJ128: 4
> MC9S12DJ256: 2
> MC9S12DP256: 5
> MC9S12DP512: -
> MC9S12DT128: 3
> MC9S12DT256: 3
> MC9S12E64: 3
> MC9S12E128: 4
> MC9S12GC16: -
> MC9S12GC32: -
> MC9S12GC64: -
> MC9S12GC96: -
> MC9S12GC128: -
> MC9S12H128: -
> MC9S12H256: 2
> MC9S12KG128: -
> MC9S12KT256: -
> MC9S12NE64: 4
> MC9S12T64: -
> MC9S12UF32: 2
>
> These stats give me some hints: A,D,E families are generally available.
> Specialty NE and UF also. B,C,GC,H,K,T families are rare and exotic,
> maybe just too new.
> I assume from the above that I can safely design around A64/D64. They
> are sufficiently generic, fit out peripheral requirements, and are
> available.
> Did I miss something obvious ?
>
> Best regards,
>
> --
> Michal Konieczny
> mk@mk@.... >
> Yahoo! Groups Links
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )