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Discussion Groups | 68HC12 | hc12mem v1.1
Join our technical discussions about Freescale Microcontrollers: M68HC12. (Freescale Semiconductor is a Subsidiary of Motorola).
hc12mem v1.1 - Michal Konieczny - Nov 17 19:47:00 2005
http://cml.mfk.net.pl/hc12mem/
I made some improvements to my hc12mem program for HCS12 MCUs.
hc12mem is a command line tool for erasing, reading and writing FLASH
and EEPROM internal memories, it can also protect/unprotect whole MCU.
Works under unix derivatives (FreeBSD and GNU/linux tested), and MS
Windows (as native win32 binary, not cygwin).
What's new:
- support for almost every HCS12 derivative, there's universal code for
all devices, although derivatives with multiple FLASH blocks were not
tested yet. Should work with <MC9S12> A32, A64, A128, A256, A512, C32,
C64, C96, C128, GC16, GC32, GC64, GC96, GC128, D32, D64, D128, D256,
D512, E32, E64, E128, E256, H128, H256, UF32, NE64
- support for Freescale's LRAE (Load RAM And Execute) serial bootloader,
see Application Note AN2546. hc12mem can use LRAE to erase, read and
write target FLASH memory, with option to erase LRAE or leave it in
place for subsequent use (although that's tricky because LRAE doesn't
support any load/run switch and it must be implemented in loaded
program, entering LRAE on user request)
- included S-record files for target agents, so no need to have gcc for
hc11/12 available when compiling/installing hc12mem.
Any feedback is very appreciated, especially regarding usage on MCUs
with multiple FLASH blocks.
Best regards,
--
Michal Konieczny
mk@mk@....
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
I made some improvements to my hc12mem program for HCS12 MCUs.
hc12mem is a command line tool for erasing, reading and writing FLASH
and EEPROM internal memories, it can also protect/unprotect whole MCU.
Works under unix derivatives (FreeBSD and GNU/linux tested), and MS
Windows (as native win32 binary, not cygwin).
What's new:
- support for almost every HCS12 derivative, there's universal code for
all devices, although derivatives with multiple FLASH blocks were not
tested yet. Should work with <MC9S12> A32, A64, A128, A256, A512, C32,
C64, C96, C128, GC16, GC32, GC64, GC96, GC128, D32, D64, D128, D256,
D512, E32, E64, E128, E256, H128, H256, UF32, NE64
- support for Freescale's LRAE (Load RAM And Execute) serial bootloader,
see Application Note AN2546. hc12mem can use LRAE to erase, read and
write target FLASH memory, with option to erase LRAE or leave it in
place for subsequent use (although that's tricky because LRAE doesn't
support any load/run switch and it must be implemented in loaded
program, entering LRAE on user request)
- included S-record files for target agents, so no need to have gcc for
hc11/12 available when compiling/installing hc12mem.
Any feedback is very appreciated, especially regarding usage on MCUs
with multiple FLASH blocks.
Best regards,
--
Michal Konieczny
mk@mk@....
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: hc12mem v1.1 - Eric Engler - Nov 18 9:02:00 2005
--- In 68HC12@68HC..., Michal Konieczny <mk@c...> wrote:
>
> http://cml.mfk.net.pl/hc12mem/
>
> I made some improvements to my hc12mem program for HCS12 MCUs.
> hc12mem is a command line tool for erasing, reading and writing FLASH
> and EEPROM internal memories, it can also protect/unprotect whole MCU.
> Works under unix derivatives (FreeBSD and GNU/linux tested), and MS
> Windows (as native win32 binary, not cygwin).
Very interesting project! I didn't notice this before...maybe I just
missed it of you posted here before.
Did you use the VC++ compiler on Windows, or Borland, or ???
I'm working on a debugger now and this looks like it would be helpful
to me. I'm using C# on the .NET Framework, but C code is quite similar.
Eric
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
>
> http://cml.mfk.net.pl/hc12mem/
>
> I made some improvements to my hc12mem program for HCS12 MCUs.
> hc12mem is a command line tool for erasing, reading and writing FLASH
> and EEPROM internal memories, it can also protect/unprotect whole MCU.
> Works under unix derivatives (FreeBSD and GNU/linux tested), and MS
> Windows (as native win32 binary, not cygwin).
Very interesting project! I didn't notice this before...maybe I just
missed it of you posted here before.
Did you use the VC++ compiler on Windows, or Borland, or ???
I'm working on a debugger now and this looks like it would be helpful
to me. I'm using C# on the .NET Framework, but C code is quite similar.
Eric
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: hc12mem v1.1 - Michal Konieczny - Nov 18 10:41:00 2005
> Very interesting project! I didn't notice this before...maybe I just
> missed it of you posted here before.
>
> Did you use the VC++ compiler on Windows, or Borland, or ???
I used MS VC Studio 6.0, because that's what was "within my reach" at
that moment. But the code isn't particularly specific to this compiler.
My main development environment is most of the time FreeBSD, sometimes
Solaris, sometimes linux, and code is written as portable and platform
independent. Should also work with cygwin, but I didn't test it. System
specific code is separated into single place, and used conditionally,
depending on the platform.
Port for MS Windows was done as an extra benefit for users working under
this system, I don't use it :)
> I'm working on a debugger now and this looks like it would be helpful
> to me. I'm using C# on the .NET Framework, but C code is quite similar.
You're welcome to reuse it in any way, or interface it with your
debugger. I can offer help in extending and tailoring it to some
specific needs, if there are any.
I currently plan to extend it to inteface with FreeGeeks TBDML POD and
Freescale's AN2548 serial monitor.
Best regards,
--
Michal Konieczny
mk@mk@....
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
> missed it of you posted here before.
>
> Did you use the VC++ compiler on Windows, or Borland, or ???
I used MS VC Studio 6.0, because that's what was "within my reach" at
that moment. But the code isn't particularly specific to this compiler.
My main development environment is most of the time FreeBSD, sometimes
Solaris, sometimes linux, and code is written as portable and platform
independent. Should also work with cygwin, but I didn't test it. System
specific code is separated into single place, and used conditionally,
depending on the platform.
Port for MS Windows was done as an extra benefit for users working under
this system, I don't use it :)
> I'm working on a debugger now and this looks like it would be helpful
> to me. I'm using C# on the .NET Framework, but C code is quite similar.
You're welcome to reuse it in any way, or interface it with your
debugger. I can offer help in extending and tailoring it to some
specific needs, if there are any.
I currently plan to extend it to inteface with FreeGeeks TBDML POD and
Freescale's AN2548 serial monitor.
Best regards,
--
Michal Konieczny
mk@mk@....
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: hc12mem v1.1 - Eric Engler - Nov 19 1:31:00 2005
--- In 68HC12@68HC..., Michal Konieczny <mk@c...> wrote:
> I currently plan to extend it to inteface with FreeGeeks TBDML POD and
> Freescale's AN2548 serial monitor.
I've already got C# code for the serial monitor but I need to polish
it a bit more. I want to establish an open standard for low-level
drivers so people can plug different drivers into different IDEs. My
first release will be within 2 months, I hope.
I think 2006 will see some major developments in free tools for the
hc12 family. I am expecting someone to provide Eclipse support (which
uses Java) for this platform (I don't know who, but it's inevitable),
and I'll be approaching this arena from the .NET side.
There's already ports of Eclipse for msp430 and Arm. Due to it's
exponential growth, it's going to support all major platforms before
long. For those who don't know anything about it, it is quite similar
to Visual Studio, but it's open source and cross platform.
I'm working from the GNU SharpDevelop base, which is similar to
Eclipse, but uses C# instead of Java. These are both fine languages
and they are both related to C at their roots, and they've been
updated to support modern OOP concepts. OOP offers a lot of benefits
for large memory computers like PC's.
Most of us still consider assembler and C to be better choices to
target limited-memory embedded devices, so people who port
SharpDevelop and Eclipse will focus on wrapping assemblers and C
compilers.
None of this will affect commercial vendors, because there's a strong
need for commercial tools. But it will make free tools more attractive
for hobbiests and students. Ease-of-use is the biggest stumbling block
that makes it hard for newbies to learn gcc.
Eric
______________________________
Stellaris® MCU Family: New Parts, New Package, New Price.
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
> I currently plan to extend it to inteface with FreeGeeks TBDML POD and
> Freescale's AN2548 serial monitor.
I've already got C# code for the serial monitor but I need to polish
it a bit more. I want to establish an open standard for low-level
drivers so people can plug different drivers into different IDEs. My
first release will be within 2 months, I hope.
I think 2006 will see some major developments in free tools for the
hc12 family. I am expecting someone to provide Eclipse support (which
uses Java) for this platform (I don't know who, but it's inevitable),
and I'll be approaching this arena from the .NET side.
There's already ports of Eclipse for msp430 and Arm. Due to it's
exponential growth, it's going to support all major platforms before
long. For those who don't know anything about it, it is quite similar
to Visual Studio, but it's open source and cross platform.
I'm working from the GNU SharpDevelop base, which is similar to
Eclipse, but uses C# instead of Java. These are both fine languages
and they are both related to C at their roots, and they've been
updated to support modern OOP concepts. OOP offers a lot of benefits
for large memory computers like PC's.
Most of us still consider assembler and C to be better choices to
target limited-memory embedded devices, so people who port
SharpDevelop and Eclipse will focus on wrapping assemblers and C
compilers.
None of this will affect commercial vendors, because there's a strong
need for commercial tools. But it will make free tools more attractive
for hobbiests and students. Ease-of-use is the biggest stumbling block
that makes it hard for newbies to learn gcc.
Eric
______________________________
Stellaris® MCU Family: New Parts, New Package, New Price.
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: Re: hc12mem v1.1 - Michal Konieczny - Nov 19 6:57:00 2005
> I've already got C# code for the serial monitor but I need to polish
> it a bit more. I want to establish an open standard for low-level
> drivers so people can plug different drivers into different IDEs. My
> first release will be within 2 months, I hope.
>
> I think 2006 will see some major developments in free tools for the
> hc12 family. I am expecting someone to provide Eclipse support (which
> uses Java) for this platform (I don't know who, but it's inevitable),
> and I'll be approaching this arena from the .NET side.
Great effort !
But all this .NET is targeting mainly windows, and this leaves all free
operating systems somewhat in a shadow, again and again.
As an additional note, there're two types of programmers: ones that use
flashy IDEs, with all these wizards, project managers, auto-this,
automagic-that, sometimes more often using mouse than typing on the
keyboard.
And there're "old school" programmers, that use emacs or some other
"just editor" of choice, Makefiles and command line tools, and consider
such environment as homeland. Don't forget about us :)
Back to the matter - I'm slowly approaching mentally making my program
some kind of a "plugin" for gdb, that will enable adding support for
more target connections (especially various bdm pods) much more easily
than putting support code directly into main gdb source tree - to do it
externally to gdb. I see that we have many common things to think about.
If you could describe me the architecture of your project (I'm real
stranger to all these IDEs), especially what components are involved and
how it all works, maybe we can share some work. But for this, I think we
can move off this list, to private email.
Best regards,
--
Michal Konieczny
mk@mk@....
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
> it a bit more. I want to establish an open standard for low-level
> drivers so people can plug different drivers into different IDEs. My
> first release will be within 2 months, I hope.
>
> I think 2006 will see some major developments in free tools for the
> hc12 family. I am expecting someone to provide Eclipse support (which
> uses Java) for this platform (I don't know who, but it's inevitable),
> and I'll be approaching this arena from the .NET side.
Great effort !
But all this .NET is targeting mainly windows, and this leaves all free
operating systems somewhat in a shadow, again and again.
As an additional note, there're two types of programmers: ones that use
flashy IDEs, with all these wizards, project managers, auto-this,
automagic-that, sometimes more often using mouse than typing on the
keyboard.
And there're "old school" programmers, that use emacs or some other
"just editor" of choice, Makefiles and command line tools, and consider
such environment as homeland. Don't forget about us :)
Back to the matter - I'm slowly approaching mentally making my program
some kind of a "plugin" for gdb, that will enable adding support for
more target connections (especially various bdm pods) much more easily
than putting support code directly into main gdb source tree - to do it
externally to gdb. I see that we have many common things to think about.
If you could describe me the architecture of your project (I'm real
stranger to all these IDEs), especially what components are involved and
how it all works, maybe we can share some work. But for this, I think we
can move off this list, to private email.
Best regards,
--
Michal Konieczny
mk@mk@....
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
RE: Re: hc12mem v1.1 - Jonathan Masters - Nov 19 18:49:00 2005
It would be nice to know if it worked using MONO for LINUX - after all,
one of the aims of .NET was platform independence.
-----Original Message-----
From: 68HC12@68HC... [mailto:68HC12@68HC...] On Behalf
Of Michal Konieczny
Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2005 9:57 PM
To: 68HC12@68HC...
Subject: Re: [68HC12] Re: hc12mem v1.1
> I've already got C# code for the serial monitor but I need to polish
> it a bit more. I want to establish an open standard for low-level
> drivers so people can plug different drivers into different IDEs. My
> first release will be within 2 months, I hope.
>
> I think 2006 will see some major developments in free tools for the
> hc12 family. I am expecting someone to provide Eclipse support (which
> uses Java) for this platform (I don't know who, but it's inevitable),
> and I'll be approaching this arena from the .NET side.
Great effort !
But all this .NET is targeting mainly windows, and this leaves all free
operating systems somewhat in a shadow, again and again.
As an additional note, there're two types of programmers: ones that use
flashy IDEs, with all these wizards, project managers, auto-this,
automagic-that, sometimes more often using mouse than typing on the
keyboard.
And there're "old school" programmers, that use emacs or some other
"just editor" of choice, Makefiles and command line tools, and consider
such environment as homeland. Don't forget about us :)
Back to the matter - I'm slowly approaching mentally making my program
some kind of a "plugin" for gdb, that will enable adding support for
more target connections (especially various bdm pods) much more easily
than putting support code directly into main gdb source tree - to do it
externally to gdb. I see that we have many common things to think about.
If you could describe me the architecture of your project (I'm real
stranger to all these IDEs), especially what components are involved and
how it all works, maybe we can share some work. But for this, I think we
can move off this list, to private email.
Best regards,
--
Michal Konieczny
mk@mk@.... _____
> Terms of Service.
_____
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
one of the aims of .NET was platform independence.
-----Original Message-----
From: 68HC12@68HC... [mailto:68HC12@68HC...] On Behalf
Of Michal Konieczny
Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2005 9:57 PM
To: 68HC12@68HC...
Subject: Re: [68HC12] Re: hc12mem v1.1
> I've already got C# code for the serial monitor but I need to polish
> it a bit more. I want to establish an open standard for low-level
> drivers so people can plug different drivers into different IDEs. My
> first release will be within 2 months, I hope.
>
> I think 2006 will see some major developments in free tools for the
> hc12 family. I am expecting someone to provide Eclipse support (which
> uses Java) for this platform (I don't know who, but it's inevitable),
> and I'll be approaching this arena from the .NET side.
Great effort !
But all this .NET is targeting mainly windows, and this leaves all free
operating systems somewhat in a shadow, again and again.
As an additional note, there're two types of programmers: ones that use
flashy IDEs, with all these wizards, project managers, auto-this,
automagic-that, sometimes more often using mouse than typing on the
keyboard.
And there're "old school" programmers, that use emacs or some other
"just editor" of choice, Makefiles and command line tools, and consider
such environment as homeland. Don't forget about us :)
Back to the matter - I'm slowly approaching mentally making my program
some kind of a "plugin" for gdb, that will enable adding support for
more target connections (especially various bdm pods) much more easily
than putting support code directly into main gdb source tree - to do it
externally to gdb. I see that we have many common things to think about.
If you could describe me the architecture of your project (I'm real
stranger to all these IDEs), especially what components are involved and
how it all works, maybe we can share some work. But for this, I think we
can move off this list, to private email.
Best regards,
--
Michal Konieczny
mk@mk@.... _____
> Terms of Service.
_____
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: hc12mem v1.1 - Eric Engler - Nov 20 11:00:00 2005
--- In 68HC12@68HC..., "Jonathan Masters" <jon@j...> wrote:
> It would be nice to know if it worked using MONO for LINUX - after all,
> one of the aims of .NET was platform independence.
It should work for mono on linux, and rotor on BSD (which may also
work for Mac OSX). But like any "platform agnostic" code, it might
need small tweaks. The only 100% platform neutral programs are ones
that don't do much!
Java and .NET are more portable than traditional C, but some tweaks
are probably inevitable. The portability comes from the strong OOP
libraries that abstract many of the low-level API differences. If the
libraries are perfect, then no tweaks will be needed. But we don't
live in a perfect world, of course!
All C# programs can be compiled on Windows with great tools that are
100% free. Microsoft's best compilers and libraries have been free
since 2002 (in the .NET SDK download), and these are the same full
versions used by Visual Studio. These aren't limited in any way, you
don't have to register with Microsoft, and they're not "trialware".
Just this month Microsoft announced that its .NET 2.0 Express IDEs
will be free for one year. These are all based on Visual Studio and
they have all the best features of VS. They mostly lack the extensive
database integration needed in a corporate IT setting. But they do
work with databases, and SQL Express is one of the free offerings.
SharpDevelop is an open source IDE for Windows. The mono port is
called MonoDevelop. My editor code derives from SharpDevelop, so it
will have some cool functionality (code folding is one of the coolest
features that wasn't supported in my past IDEs). However, I'll create
my own IDE that is simpler because my users prefer ease-of-use over
extensive features, and it will be specifically designed for embedded
targets. My users are students and hobbiests who want to become
productive quickly without spending a lot of time learning how to use
the tools.
My current assembler IDE is about 5 times more popular than my C IDE
(because of its use in colleges), so my first project under the new
code base is a debugger for assembler programs. This will be called
from AsmIDE at first, but later the entire assembler IDE will be
re-implemented using the new C# code base.
I have not yet decided on how to proceed on the gcc side of things so
this will wait until I have a better vision of where to go and how to
get there. There's a chance that others might "beat me to the punch"
by porting Eclipse to work with the HC11/HC12 family to support
embedded C, and that would be a great choice. I would not see a need
to compete with Eclipse if that were to happen.
Having said all this, my free time is limited and I won't have time to
do the linux ports of my C# code by myself. I use Visual Studio on
Windows because I'm most familiar with it. I'm hoping that others will
assist in linux porting.
Eric
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
> It would be nice to know if it worked using MONO for LINUX - after all,
> one of the aims of .NET was platform independence.
It should work for mono on linux, and rotor on BSD (which may also
work for Mac OSX). But like any "platform agnostic" code, it might
need small tweaks. The only 100% platform neutral programs are ones
that don't do much!
Java and .NET are more portable than traditional C, but some tweaks
are probably inevitable. The portability comes from the strong OOP
libraries that abstract many of the low-level API differences. If the
libraries are perfect, then no tweaks will be needed. But we don't
live in a perfect world, of course!
All C# programs can be compiled on Windows with great tools that are
100% free. Microsoft's best compilers and libraries have been free
since 2002 (in the .NET SDK download), and these are the same full
versions used by Visual Studio. These aren't limited in any way, you
don't have to register with Microsoft, and they're not "trialware".
Just this month Microsoft announced that its .NET 2.0 Express IDEs
will be free for one year. These are all based on Visual Studio and
they have all the best features of VS. They mostly lack the extensive
database integration needed in a corporate IT setting. But they do
work with databases, and SQL Express is one of the free offerings.
SharpDevelop is an open source IDE for Windows. The mono port is
called MonoDevelop. My editor code derives from SharpDevelop, so it
will have some cool functionality (code folding is one of the coolest
features that wasn't supported in my past IDEs). However, I'll create
my own IDE that is simpler because my users prefer ease-of-use over
extensive features, and it will be specifically designed for embedded
targets. My users are students and hobbiests who want to become
productive quickly without spending a lot of time learning how to use
the tools.
My current assembler IDE is about 5 times more popular than my C IDE
(because of its use in colleges), so my first project under the new
code base is a debugger for assembler programs. This will be called
from AsmIDE at first, but later the entire assembler IDE will be
re-implemented using the new C# code base.
I have not yet decided on how to proceed on the gcc side of things so
this will wait until I have a better vision of where to go and how to
get there. There's a chance that others might "beat me to the punch"
by porting Eclipse to work with the HC11/HC12 family to support
embedded C, and that would be a great choice. I would not see a need
to compete with Eclipse if that were to happen.
Having said all this, my free time is limited and I won't have time to
do the linux ports of my C# code by myself. I use Visual Studio on
Windows because I'm most familiar with it. I'm hoping that others will
assist in linux porting.
Eric
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: hc12mem v1.1 - Jefferson Smith - Nov 21 19:17:00 2005
--- In 68HC12@68HC..., Michal Konieczny <mk@c...> wrote:
> Great effort !
> But all this .NET is targeting mainly windows, and this leaves all free
> operating systems somewhat in a shadow, again and again.
> As an additional note, there're two types of programmers: ones that use
> flashy IDEs, with all these wizards, project managers, auto-this,
> automagic-that, sometimes more often using mouse than typing on the
> keyboard.
> And there're "old school" programmers, that use emacs or some other
> "just editor" of choice, Makefiles and command line tools, and consider
> such environment as homeland. Don't forget about us :)
Eclipse... that's the effor to cover that end, except I guess Java
itself might never be really Open Source.
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
> Great effort !
> But all this .NET is targeting mainly windows, and this leaves all free
> operating systems somewhat in a shadow, again and again.
> As an additional note, there're two types of programmers: ones that use
> flashy IDEs, with all these wizards, project managers, auto-this,
> automagic-that, sometimes more often using mouse than typing on the
> keyboard.
> And there're "old school" programmers, that use emacs or some other
> "just editor" of choice, Makefiles and command line tools, and consider
> such environment as homeland. Don't forget about us :)
Eclipse... that's the effor to cover that end, except I guess Java
itself might never be really Open Source.
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: hc12mem v1.1 - Jefferson Smith - Nov 21 19:35:00 2005
--- In 68HC12@68HC..., "Eric Engler" <englere.geo@y...> wrote:
> Just this month Microsoft announced that its .NET 2.0 Express IDEs
> will be free for one year. These are all based on Visual Studio and
> they have all the best features of VS. They mostly lack the extensive
> database integration needed in a corporate IT setting. But they do
> work with databases, and SQL Express is one of the free offerings.
"free for one year", interresting definition of the word free?
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
> Just this month Microsoft announced that its .NET 2.0 Express IDEs
> will be free for one year. These are all based on Visual Studio and
> they have all the best features of VS. They mostly lack the extensive
> database integration needed in a corporate IT setting. But they do
> work with databases, and SQL Express is one of the free offerings.
"free for one year", interresting definition of the word free?
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: hc12mem v1.1 - Jefferson Smith - Nov 21 19:43:00 2005
--- In 68HC12@68HC..., "Eric Engler" <englere.geo@y...> wrote:
> get there. There's a chance that others might "beat me to the punch"
> by porting Eclipse to work with the HC11/HC12 family to support
> embedded C, and that would be a great choice. I would not see a need
> to compete with Eclipse if that were to happen.
Any idea what part of HC11/HC12 programming is not supported by
Eclipse/CDT already? I've been developing with it for a year with HC12
and it works great.
Only problem is I hadn't got gdb working well enough so I can't use it
for GUI debugging.
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
> get there. There's a chance that others might "beat me to the punch"
> by porting Eclipse to work with the HC11/HC12 family to support
> embedded C, and that would be a great choice. I would not see a need
> to compete with Eclipse if that were to happen.
Any idea what part of HC11/HC12 programming is not supported by
Eclipse/CDT already? I've been developing with it for a year with HC12
and it works great.
Only problem is I hadn't got gdb working well enough so I can't use it
for GUI debugging.
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: hc12mem v1.1 - Eric Engler - Nov 22 23:43:00 2005
--- In 68HC12@68HC..., "Jefferson Smith" <imajeff84663@y...>
> Eclipse... that's the effor to cover that end, except I guess Java
> itself might never be really Open Source.
There are many open source implementations of the Java compiler (Jikes
is the best known) and the JVM, but Sun won't allow any commercial
competition. Sun almost made Java an open standard, but they changed
their mind and didn't do it.
It's my understanding that Sun allows open source implementations that
have a licensing model that forbids commercial sales.
Microsoft's C# language and their CLR are open standards, so anyone
can give away their own tools, or sell them with no royalties to
Microsoft.
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
> Eclipse... that's the effor to cover that end, except I guess Java
> itself might never be really Open Source.
There are many open source implementations of the Java compiler (Jikes
is the best known) and the JVM, but Sun won't allow any commercial
competition. Sun almost made Java an open standard, but they changed
their mind and didn't do it.
It's my understanding that Sun allows open source implementations that
have a licensing model that forbids commercial sales.
Microsoft's C# language and their CLR are open standards, so anyone
can give away their own tools, or sell them with no royalties to
Microsoft.
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
tips to tool venders (was: hc12mem v1.1) - Eric Engler - Nov 23 0:26:00 2005
--- In 68HC12@68HC..., "Jefferson Smith" <imajeff84663@y...>
wrote:
> "free for one year", interresting definition of the word free?
They originally planned a $50 per seat charge for the Windows and Web
Express IDEs, and they would have been a steal at that price. They
said their SQL Express tool will always be free.
You can easily use open source tools if you don't think $50 is a
reasonable price to pay at some point in the future.
Sun's newest low-end IDE has a price of $99.
Those of use who use Visual Studio (and the Express cousins) clearly
see the benefits. It's the fastest IDE having advanced
state-of-the-art features - the quick snappy performance is a big
benefit when you're in a hurry.
Most other IDEs from other companies keep copying features from Visual
Studio, but they can't keep up. VS 2005 had a ton of R & D money and
it's really remarkable. The automatic wizards, hints, and code
refactoring make it look almost like an AI tool. Intellisense was
their best feature, but now it's even better because it remembers your
choices of the past, and in the future your frequently-used choices
will sort to the top if the list.
Eclipse has many features that originated in VS, but it's much slower
and many of it's advanced features come from plugins that are poorly
integrated. Having said that, I'll still defend Eclipse as being the
best overall open source IDE, and it's gaining ground exponentially.
It's already beat all the big Java IDE companies (especially Borland,
who probably still have the best commercial Java IDE).
Sorry to get off topic. I see a big change underway in the overall
quality of open source IDEs and the commercial embedded vendors need
to focus on their future strategy. Unlike many open source advocates,
I am NOT against companies selling commercial products, and I'd like
to give them advice if they're interested.
Advice to commercial IDE vendors that target embedded markets:
1) focus on your quick and complete support. This is not available in
the open source world, aside from message forums that generally don't
help much with specific nontrivial problems. Any question emailed to
your support people should be answered in a matter of hours, and tell
people you need a few days if that is the case. Don't make them see an
empty inbox for a week.
2) focus on your support for many devices. It's harder for open source
to offer custom support for many devices.
3) make sure you have a great message forum, and make sure questions
there get answered in a timely manner. CodeWarrior's forum has
unanswered questions that were asked months ago - not good!
4) simple setup and operation is essential. Free tools are usually
hard to configure, and they can be quirky to use.
5) make sure that bugs are acknowledged, and have fixes soon
thereafter. Use beta testers before major releases.
6) take a cue from the big boys: you need a free or low-cost edition
to hook people. Kudos to CodeWarrior and IAR.
7) pay attention to marketing - leverage training opportunities (see
how I mixed marketing and training). Both Microsoft and Sun have tons
of free training materials and even classes. Desktop mpeg videos are
great for training. Your goal is to SHOW people how easy it is to use
your tools, and then let them know they can get lots of free materials
at your website.
8) If you only follow one piece of advice from this list - this should
be it: you must start a weblog that people can check for routine (and
frequently updated) tips about using your product. This is extremely
important. Look at http://weblogs.asp.net/. These are postings from
Microsoft insiders who get people excited to use Microsoft tools.
Excited customers are happy customers, and happy customers make your
stockholders happy.
I could summarize the list of 8 items this way: membership has it's
priviledges. Make sure your customers feel priviledged.
Eric
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
wrote:
> "free for one year", interresting definition of the word free?
They originally planned a $50 per seat charge for the Windows and Web
Express IDEs, and they would have been a steal at that price. They
said their SQL Express tool will always be free.
You can easily use open source tools if you don't think $50 is a
reasonable price to pay at some point in the future.
Sun's newest low-end IDE has a price of $99.
Those of use who use Visual Studio (and the Express cousins) clearly
see the benefits. It's the fastest IDE having advanced
state-of-the-art features - the quick snappy performance is a big
benefit when you're in a hurry.
Most other IDEs from other companies keep copying features from Visual
Studio, but they can't keep up. VS 2005 had a ton of R & D money and
it's really remarkable. The automatic wizards, hints, and code
refactoring make it look almost like an AI tool. Intellisense was
their best feature, but now it's even better because it remembers your
choices of the past, and in the future your frequently-used choices
will sort to the top if the list.
Eclipse has many features that originated in VS, but it's much slower
and many of it's advanced features come from plugins that are poorly
integrated. Having said that, I'll still defend Eclipse as being the
best overall open source IDE, and it's gaining ground exponentially.
It's already beat all the big Java IDE companies (especially Borland,
who probably still have the best commercial Java IDE).
Sorry to get off topic. I see a big change underway in the overall
quality of open source IDEs and the commercial embedded vendors need
to focus on their future strategy. Unlike many open source advocates,
I am NOT against companies selling commercial products, and I'd like
to give them advice if they're interested.
Advice to commercial IDE vendors that target embedded markets:
1) focus on your quick and complete support. This is not available in
the open source world, aside from message forums that generally don't
help much with specific nontrivial problems. Any question emailed to
your support people should be answered in a matter of hours, and tell
people you need a few days if that is the case. Don't make them see an
empty inbox for a week.
2) focus on your support for many devices. It's harder for open source
to offer custom support for many devices.
3) make sure you have a great message forum, and make sure questions
there get answered in a timely manner. CodeWarrior's forum has
unanswered questions that were asked months ago - not good!
4) simple setup and operation is essential. Free tools are usually
hard to configure, and they can be quirky to use.
5) make sure that bugs are acknowledged, and have fixes soon
thereafter. Use beta testers before major releases.
6) take a cue from the big boys: you need a free or low-cost edition
to hook people. Kudos to CodeWarrior and IAR.
7) pay attention to marketing - leverage training opportunities (see
how I mixed marketing and training). Both Microsoft and Sun have tons
of free training materials and even classes. Desktop mpeg videos are
great for training. Your goal is to SHOW people how easy it is to use
your tools, and then let them know they can get lots of free materials
at your website.
8) If you only follow one piece of advice from this list - this should
be it: you must start a weblog that people can check for routine (and
frequently updated) tips about using your product. This is extremely
important. Look at http://weblogs.asp.net/. These are postings from
Microsoft insiders who get people excited to use Microsoft tools.
Excited customers are happy customers, and happy customers make your
stockholders happy.
I could summarize the list of 8 items this way: membership has it's
priviledges. Make sure your customers feel priviledged.
Eric
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: tips to tool venders (was: hc12mem v1.1) - Kim Lux - Nov 23 1:48:00 2005
Comments below
On Wed, 2005-11-23 at 04:26 +0000, Eric Engler wrote:
> Sun's newest low-end IDE has a price of $99.
If you are referring to Sun Studio 11, it is now free.
http://www.betanews.com/article/Sun_Offers_Free_Development_Studio/1132259864
> Eclipse has many features that originated in VS, but it's much slower
> and many of it's advanced features come from plugins that are poorly
> integrated.
Eclipse had refactoring before VS did. Slow ? Dunno about that. The
Java VM slows it down a bit, but it is still very quick.
> Having said that, I'll still defend Eclipse as being the
> best overall open source IDE, and it's gaining ground exponentially.
> It's already beat all the big Java IDE companies (especially Borland,
> who probably still have the best commercial Java IDE).
Eclipse is the only multi platform/multi language IDE that I know of.
Maybe Kdevelop ? I think it is time that tool vendors stopped trying to
reinvent the IDE and started making things that just plug into existing
IDEs. --
Kim Lux, Diesel Research Inc.
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
On Wed, 2005-11-23 at 04:26 +0000, Eric Engler wrote:
> Sun's newest low-end IDE has a price of $99.
If you are referring to Sun Studio 11, it is now free.
http://www.betanews.com/article/Sun_Offers_Free_Development_Studio/1132259864
> Eclipse has many features that originated in VS, but it's much slower
> and many of it's advanced features come from plugins that are poorly
> integrated.
Eclipse had refactoring before VS did. Slow ? Dunno about that. The
Java VM slows it down a bit, but it is still very quick.
> Having said that, I'll still defend Eclipse as being the
> best overall open source IDE, and it's gaining ground exponentially.
> It's already beat all the big Java IDE companies (especially Borland,
> who probably still have the best commercial Java IDE).
Eclipse is the only multi platform/multi language IDE that I know of.
Maybe Kdevelop ? I think it is time that tool vendors stopped trying to
reinvent the IDE and started making things that just plug into existing
IDEs. --
Kim Lux, Diesel Research Inc.
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: Re: hc12mem v1.1 - Kim Lux - Nov 23 1:53:00 2005
Comments below.
On Wed, 2005-11-23 at 03:43 +0000, Eric Engler wrote:
> --- In 68HC12@68HC..., "Jefferson Smith" <imajeff84663@y...>
>
> > Eclipse... that's the effor to cover that end, except I guess Java
> > itself might never be really Open Source.
We can get by with Java not being open source. Fedora has a version as
does IBM.
> There are many open source implementations of the Java compiler (Jikes
> is the best known) and the JVM, but Sun won't allow any commercial
> competition. Sun almost made Java an open standard, but they changed
> their mind and didn't do it.
>
> It's my understanding that Sun allows open source implementations that
> have a licensing model that forbids commercial sales.
???? In order for Java to be something, Sun needs it to run on other
platforms and for that to happen, it must share.
> Microsoft's C# language and their CLR are open standards, so anyone
> can give away their own tools, or sell them with no royalties to
> Microsoft.
C# is an attempt by Microsoft to lock people in to Microsoft products.
C# isn't an open standard. Ask people on the mono team.
--
Kim Lux, Diesel Research Inc.
______________________________
Stellaris® MCU Family: New Parts, New Package, New Price.
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
On Wed, 2005-11-23 at 03:43 +0000, Eric Engler wrote:
> --- In 68HC12@68HC..., "Jefferson Smith" <imajeff84663@y...>
>
> > Eclipse... that's the effor to cover that end, except I guess Java
> > itself might never be really Open Source.
We can get by with Java not being open source. Fedora has a version as
does IBM.
> There are many open source implementations of the Java compiler (Jikes
> is the best known) and the JVM, but Sun won't allow any commercial
> competition. Sun almost made Java an open standard, but they changed
> their mind and didn't do it.
>
> It's my understanding that Sun allows open source implementations that
> have a licensing model that forbids commercial sales.
???? In order for Java to be something, Sun needs it to run on other
platforms and for that to happen, it must share.
> Microsoft's C# language and their CLR are open standards, so anyone
> can give away their own tools, or sell them with no royalties to
> Microsoft.
C# is an attempt by Microsoft to lock people in to Microsoft products.
C# isn't an open standard. Ask people on the mono team.
--
Kim Lux, Diesel Research Inc.
______________________________
Stellaris® MCU Family: New Parts, New Package, New Price.
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: hc12mem v1.1 - Jefferson Smith - Nov 23 11:06:00 2005
--- In 68HC12@68HC..., "Eric Engler" <englere.geo@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In 68HC12@68HC..., "Jefferson Smith" <imajeff84663@y...>
>
> > Eclipse... that's the effor to cover that end, except I guess Java
> > itself might never be really Open Source.
>
> There are many open source implementations of the Java compiler (Jikes
> is the best known) and the JVM, but Sun won't allow any commercial
> competition. Sun almost made Java an open standard, but they changed
> their mind and didn't do it.
>
> It's my understanding that Sun allows open source implementations that
> have a licensing model that forbids commercial sales.
I've seen some worrying about whether Sun will fight open source. But
to me the problem is proving (or certifying) the Java compatibility.
What I've tried in the past didn't come close to the same. Since being
the same is the whole purpose of Java, it must be exactly the same
(execution results, anyway).
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
>
> --- In 68HC12@68HC..., "Jefferson Smith" <imajeff84663@y...>
>
> > Eclipse... that's the effor to cover that end, except I guess Java
> > itself might never be really Open Source.
>
> There are many open source implementations of the Java compiler (Jikes
> is the best known) and the JVM, but Sun won't allow any commercial
> competition. Sun almost made Java an open standard, but they changed
> their mind and didn't do it.
>
> It's my understanding that Sun allows open source implementations that
> have a licensing model that forbids commercial sales.
I've seen some worrying about whether Sun will fight open source. But
to me the problem is proving (or certifying) the Java compatibility.
What I've tried in the past didn't come close to the same. Since being
the same is the whole purpose of Java, it must be exactly the same
(execution results, anyway).
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: Re: hc12mem v1.1 - Hrdym - Nov 23 17:26:00 2005
witam Michal
czy moglbys mi wyslac swoj programator do hc 12 ??
ja urzywam tylko do programowania eepromów
czy potrzebny jest jakis specjalny interfejs ??
jak bys mógl podaj mi swój nr telefonu bo chcialbym z toba porozmawiac
pozdrawiam radek
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michal Konieczny" <mk@mk@....>
To: <68HC12@68HC...>
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: [68HC12] Re: hc12mem v1.1 > > I've already got C# code for the serial monitor but I need to polish
> > it a bit more. I want to establish an open standard for low-level
> > drivers so people can plug different drivers into different IDEs. My
> > first release will be within 2 months, I hope.
> >
> > I think 2006 will see some major developments in free tools for the
> > hc12 family. I am expecting someone to provide Eclipse support (which
> > uses Java) for this platform (I don't know who, but it's inevitable),
> > and I'll be approaching this arena from the .NET side.
>
> Great effort !
> But all this .NET is targeting mainly windows, and this leaves all free
> operating systems somewhat in a shadow, again and again.
> As an additional note, there're two types of programmers: ones that use
> flashy IDEs, with all these wizards, project managers, auto-this,
> automagic-that, sometimes more often using mouse than typing on the
> keyboard.
> And there're "old school" programmers, that use emacs or some other
> "just editor" of choice, Makefiles and command line tools, and consider
> such environment as homeland. Don't forget about us :)
>
> Back to the matter - I'm slowly approaching mentally making my program
> some kind of a "plugin" for gdb, that will enable adding support for
> more target connections (especially various bdm pods) much more easily
> than putting support code directly into main gdb source tree - to do it
> externally to gdb. I see that we have many common things to think about.
> If you could describe me the architecture of your project (I'm real
> stranger to all these IDEs), especially what components are involved and
> how it all works, maybe we can share some work. But for this, I think we
> can move off this list, to private email.
>
> Best regards,
>
> --
> Michal Konieczny
> mk@mk@.... >
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
czy moglbys mi wyslac swoj programator do hc 12 ??
ja urzywam tylko do programowania eepromów
czy potrzebny jest jakis specjalny interfejs ??
jak bys mógl podaj mi swój nr telefonu bo chcialbym z toba porozmawiac
pozdrawiam radek
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michal Konieczny" <mk@mk@....>
To: <68HC12@68HC...>
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: [68HC12] Re: hc12mem v1.1 > > I've already got C# code for the serial monitor but I need to polish
> > it a bit more. I want to establish an open standard for low-level
> > drivers so people can plug different drivers into different IDEs. My
> > first release will be within 2 months, I hope.
> >
> > I think 2006 will see some major developments in free tools for the
> > hc12 family. I am expecting someone to provide Eclipse support (which
> > uses Java) for this platform (I don't know who, but it's inevitable),
> > and I'll be approaching this arena from the .NET side.
>
> Great effort !
> But all this .NET is targeting mainly windows, and this leaves all free
> operating systems somewhat in a shadow, again and again.
> As an additional note, there're two types of programmers: ones that use
> flashy IDEs, with all these wizards, project managers, auto-this,
> automagic-that, sometimes more often using mouse than typing on the
> keyboard.
> And there're "old school" programmers, that use emacs or some other
> "just editor" of choice, Makefiles and command line tools, and consider
> such environment as homeland. Don't forget about us :)
>
> Back to the matter - I'm slowly approaching mentally making my program
> some kind of a "plugin" for gdb, that will enable adding support for
> more target connections (especially various bdm pods) much more easily
> than putting support code directly into main gdb source tree - to do it
> externally to gdb. I see that we have many common things to think about.
> If you could describe me the architecture of your project (I'm real
> stranger to all these IDEs), especially what components are involved and
> how it all works, maybe we can share some work. But for this, I think we
> can move off this list, to private email.
>
> Best regards,
>
> --
> Michal Konieczny
> mk@mk@.... >
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: hc12mem v1.1 - Eric Engler - Nov 26 23:37:00 2005
> Any idea what part of HC11/HC12 programming is not supported by
> Eclipse/CDT already? I've been developing with it for a year with HC12
> and it works great. no debugging, no terminal window, no automatic creation of make files
and linker script files.
It probably wouldn't be too hard to add a terminal window, but I
haven't seen if anyone has done this yet.
The debugger is the hard part, but there's an open source driver for
ARM RDI commands for gdb, and a nice visual integration to make it
easy to use. If I were doing a port of Eclipse I'd look at this ARM
oriented solution to act as a starting point.
RDI commands are just debugging API commands provided by Windows DLLs
that communicate with the JTAG port (basically similar to a BDM port,
but it's more complicated because the ARM EmbeddedICE module is harder
to work with). This is the only work needed to make the hc12 port -
just implement the RDI style commands for BDM devices. You'd only need
a subset to make it work reasonably well.
There is no standard Windows/linux API for debuggers that work with
BDM devices yet (nothing like RDI; note that RDI is a proprietary
standard), but we should create an open standard and work towards
interoperability for various open source tools.
Eric
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: hc12mem v1.1 - Eric Engler - Nov 27 11:13:00 2005
--- In 68HC12@68HC..., Kim Lux <lux@d...> wrote:
> > Microsoft's C# language and their CLR are open standards, so anyone
> > can give away their own tools, or sell them with no royalties to
> > Microsoft.
>
> C# is an attempt by Microsoft to lock people in to Microsoft products.
> C# isn't an open standard. Ask people on the mono team.
I am well aware of these issues the mono team has with Microsoft, but
frankly, they've overstepped the bounds of the open tools and have
tried doing open implementations of Microsoft proprietary tools.
The full C# language (including all the latest enhancements such as
generics) is fully open and documented as ECMA standard 334. The
Common Language Infrastructure (runtime) is open and documented as
ECMA standard 335. No company or individual can ever be sued for
implementing their own tools based on ECMA standards.
http://www.dina.kvl.dk/~sestoft/ecma/
Some of the higher level libraries are not open standards, and
recently the mono team has been looking at writing an open source
version of Indigo (the Windows Communications Foundation layer for the
new Windows Vista line). This is an advanced method of handling
remoting and web services that is NOT an open standard.
I strongly support a company's right to have some proprietary code
because that pays the salaries of their employees. If Microsoft gave
away all of their standards, then there would be no Microsoft.
Similarly, Freescale has given us the source code for the serial
monitor, but not for d-bug12. Like you, I really wish they'd give us
the code for d-bug12, but I support their right to keep it closed if
they choose to do so. Maybe this is a poor analogy, but I'm trying to
say that many companies have trade secrets and open secrets.
Eric
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
> > Microsoft's C# language and their CLR are open standards, so anyone
> > can give away their own tools, or sell them with no royalties to
> > Microsoft.
>
> C# is an attempt by Microsoft to lock people in to Microsoft products.
> C# isn't an open standard. Ask people on the mono team.
I am well aware of these issues the mono team has with Microsoft, but
frankly, they've overstepped the bounds of the open tools and have
tried doing open implementations of Microsoft proprietary tools.
The full C# language (including all the latest enhancements such as
generics) is fully open and documented as ECMA standard 334. The
Common Language Infrastructure (runtime) is open and documented as
ECMA standard 335. No company or individual can ever be sued for
implementing their own tools based on ECMA standards.
http://www.dina.kvl.dk/~sestoft/ecma/
Some of the higher level libraries are not open standards, and
recently the mono team has been looking at writing an open source
version of Indigo (the Windows Communications Foundation layer for the
new Windows Vista line). This is an advanced method of handling
remoting and web services that is NOT an open standard.
I strongly support a company's right to have some proprietary code
because that pays the salaries of their employees. If Microsoft gave
away all of their standards, then there would be no Microsoft.
Similarly, Freescale has given us the source code for the serial
monitor, but not for d-bug12. Like you, I really wish they'd give us
the code for d-bug12, but I support their right to keep it closed if
they choose to do so. Maybe this is a poor analogy, but I'm trying to
say that many companies have trade secrets and open secrets.
Eric
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: tips to tool venders (was: hc12mem v1.1) - Eric Engler - Nov 27 11:22:00 2005
--- In 68HC12@68HC..., Kim Lux <lux@d...> wrote:
> If you are referring to Sun Studio 11, it is now free.
>http://www.betanews.com/article/Sun_Offers_Free_Development_Studio/1132259864
That's good news. I think they've felt the pressure from Eclipse.
> I think it is time that tool vendors stopped trying to
> reinvent the IDE and started making things that just plug into
existing IDEs.
As you probably know, this is happening at an alarming rate in the
Java world. Even Borland has repositioned itself as a company that
makes plugins for Eclipse, in addition to their own IDE. Their own IDE
is probably going to die on the vine (this makes me sad because it's
terrific, bit that's the course the market is taking).
I know some stuff about Java because my son is a Java programmer and
we frequently discuss the "Java vs C#" issues around the dinner table.
But I'm not up on coding in Java, and I am deeply immersed in the .NET
world at this time.
Eric
(You need to be a member of 68hc12 -- send a blank email to 68hc12-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
> If you are referring to Sun Studio 11, it is now free.
>http://www.betanews.com/article/Sun_Offers_Free_Development_Studio/1132259864
That's good news. I think they've felt the pressure from Eclipse.
> I think it is time that tool vendors stopped trying to
> reinvent the IDE and started making things that just plug into
existing IDEs.
As you probably know, this is happening at an alarming rate in the
Java world. Even Borland has repositioned itself as a company that
makes plugins for Eclipse, in addition to their own IDE. Their own IDE
is probably going to die on the vine (this makes me sad because it's
terrific, bit that's the course the market is taking).
I know some stuff about Java because my son is a Java programmer and
we frequently discuss the "Java vs C#" issues around the dinner table.
But I'm not up on coding in Java, and I am deeply immersed in the .NET
world at this time.
Eric
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