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Discussion Groups | FPGA-CPU | Re: Re: New to FPGA development

This list is for discussion of the design and implementation of field-programmable gate array based processors and integrated systems. It is also for discussion and community support of the XSOC Project (see http://www.fpgacpu.org/xsoc).

New to FPGA development - sirtiffguy - Jan 23 1:49:00 2005




Hey guys (newby here),

I am looking for a cheep development board with a few cool additions
on it. My sole reason (one of them anyway) is to move from coding
that we do in class (3rd year, EE) to the actual development of home
projects that I can keep.

From moving from C++ to uControllers, I found a huge improvement in
my coding ability... and my overall understanding of embedded
systems.

Heres what I have found so far...
A XSA-100 board (32mb sram, XC2S200 fpga, xc9572sl cpld) ~149.00
http://www.xess.com/prod034.php3

Altium Live Design (EP1C12F3324/XC3S400 fpga, sram, audio, several
ports) ~ 99.00
http://www.altium.com/livedesign/

C-nit (Spartan-II 100K gate fpga, sram, only headers) ~90
http://www.c-nit.net/

Digilent Pegasus (XC2S50 fpga, ports/buttons/leds)~89
https://digilent.us/Sales/Product.cfm?Prod=PEGASUS

fpga4fun.com Pluto (EP1K10TC100 fpga, no ports, bare bones) ~50
http://www.fpga4fun.com/board_pluto.html

fpga4fun.com PlutoII (EP1C3T100 fpga, same as above) ~80
http://www.fpga4fun.com/board_pluto-II.html

I think having VGA, PS2 or serial, plus a few other leds/ 7 segments
would be nice, but not entirely necessary.

Does anyone know of other cheep boards hopefully under 100usd that
could be considerd a good starter kit?

Thanks,
Chris





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Re: New to FPGA development - Marc Nicholas - Jan 23 12:14:00 2005

Get one of the Pluto boards....you can make your own VGA, PS2, serial
connectors easily from scrounged parts or a few $$$ at Digikey or your local
electronics store.

And...you'll have a much greater sense of accomplishment and truly
understand what's going on.

-marc On 1/23/05 1:49 AM, "sirtiffguy" <> wrote: >
>
> Hey guys (newby here),
>
> I am looking for a cheep development board with a few cool additions
> on it. My sole reason (one of them anyway) is to move from coding
> that we do in class (3rd year, EE) to the actual development of home
> projects that I can keep.
>
>> From moving from C++ to uControllers, I found a huge improvement in
> my coding ability... and my overall understanding of embedded
> systems.
>
> Heres what I have found so far...
> A XSA-100 board (32mb sram, XC2S200 fpga, xc9572sl cpld) ~149.00
> http://www.xess.com/prod034.php3
>
> Altium Live Design (EP1C12F3324/XC3S400 fpga, sram, audio, several
> ports) ~ 99.00
> http://www.altium.com/livedesign/
>
> C-nit (Spartan-II 100K gate fpga, sram, only headers) ~90
> http://www.c-nit.net/
>
> Digilent Pegasus (XC2S50 fpga, ports/buttons/leds)~89
> https://digilent.us/Sales/Product.cfm?Prod=PEGASUS
>
> fpga4fun.com Pluto (EP1K10TC100 fpga, no ports, bare bones) ~50
> http://www.fpga4fun.com/board_pluto.html
>
> fpga4fun.com PlutoII (EP1C3T100 fpga, same as above) ~80
> http://www.fpga4fun.com/board_pluto-II.html
>
> I think having VGA, PS2 or serial, plus a few other leds/ 7 segments
> would be nice, but not entirely necessary.
>
> Does anyone know of other cheep boards hopefully under 100usd that
> could be considerd a good starter kit?
>
> Thanks,
> Chris >
>
> To post a message, send it to:
> To unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
> Yahoo! Groups Links



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Re: New to FPGA development - Leon Heller - Jan 23 13:58:00 2005

----- Original Message -----
From: "sirtiffguy" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 6:49 AM
Subject: [fpga-cpu] New to FPGA development > Hey guys (newby here),
>
> I am looking for a cheep development board with a few cool additions
> on it. My sole reason (one of them anyway) is to move from coding
> that we do in class (3rd year, EE) to the actual development of home
> projects that I can keep.
>
> From moving from C++ to uControllers, I found a huge improvement in
> my coding ability... and my overall understanding of embedded
> systems.
>
> Heres what I have found so far...
> A XSA-100 board (32mb sram, XC2S200 fpga, xc9572sl cpld) ~149.00
> http://www.xess.com/prod034.php3
>
> Altium Live Design (EP1C12F3324/XC3S400 fpga, sram, audio, several
> ports) ~ 99.00
> http://www.altium.com/livedesign/
>
> C-nit (Spartan-II 100K gate fpga, sram, only headers) ~90
> http://www.c-nit.net/
>
> Digilent Pegasus (XC2S50 fpga, ports/buttons/leds)~89
> https://digilent.us/Sales/Product.cfm?Prod=PEGASUS
>
> fpga4fun.com Pluto (EP1K10TC100 fpga, no ports, bare bones) ~50
> http://www.fpga4fun.com/board_pluto.html
>
> fpga4fun.com PlutoII (EP1C3T100 fpga, same as above) ~80
> http://www.fpga4fun.com/board_pluto-II.html
>
> I think having VGA, PS2 or serial, plus a few other leds/ 7 segments
> would be nice, but not entirely necessary.
>
> Does anyone know of other cheep boards hopefully under 100usd that
> could be considerd a good starter kit?

The Xilinx starter kit is $99. It's actually made by Digilent.

Leon --
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.1 - Release Date: 19/01/2005



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Re: New to FPGA development - Eric Smith - Jan 23 16:20:00 2005

Chris wrote:
> I think having VGA, PS2 or serial, plus a few other leds/ 7 segments
> would be nice, but not entirely necessary.
>
> Does anyone know of other cheep boards hopefully under 100usd that
> could be considerd a good starter kit?

Spartan 3 starter kit, available from either Xilinx or Digilent, has
exactly the I/O you described, and 1MB of SRAM (256K*32), using an XC3S200.
It costs $99:

http://www.xilinx.com/products/spartan3/s3boards.htm
https://digilent.us/Sales/Product.cfm?Prod=S3BOARD

Digilent has in the past also offered the same board with an XC3S400 for
a slightly higher price, but that doesn't seem to be available at the
moment.

Digilent also offers some expansion boards.

I bought a starter kit from Xilinx, and have been very happy with it.

If you want to use a PC keyboard or mouse with the PS/2 port, it is
likely that you have to move a jumper that configures the port voltage.
For no apparent reason, Digilent designed it to support 3.3V PS/2, which
doesn't exist, and that is the default setting.

Eric



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Re: New to FPGA development - Tony - Jan 23 18:16:00 2005


>
>Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 06:49:54 -0000
> From: "sirtiffguy" <>
>Subject: New to FPGA development >
>Hey guys (newby here),
>
>I am looking for a cheep development board with a few cool additions
>on it. My sole reason (one of them anyway) is to move from coding
>that we do in class (3rd year, EE) to the actual development of home
>projects that I can keep.
>
>>From moving from C++ to uControllers, I found a huge improvement in
>my coding ability... and my overall understanding of embedded
>systems.
>
>Heres what I have found so far...
>A XSA-100 board (32mb sram, XC2S200 fpga, xc9572sl cpld) ~149.00
>http://www.xess.com/prod034.php3
>
>Altium Live Design (EP1C12F3324/XC3S400 fpga, sram, audio, several
>ports) ~ 99.00
>http://www.altium.com/livedesign/
>
>C-nit (Spartan-II 100K gate fpga, sram, only headers) ~90
>http://www.c-nit.net/
>
>Digilent Pegasus (XC2S50 fpga, ports/buttons/leds)~89
>https://digilent.us/Sales/Product.cfm?Prod=PEGASUS
>
>fpga4fun.com Pluto (EP1K10TC100 fpga, no ports, bare bones) ~50
>http://www.fpga4fun.com/board_pluto.html
>
>fpga4fun.com PlutoII (EP1C3T100 fpga, same as above) ~80
>http://www.fpga4fun.com/board_pluto-II.html
>
>I think having VGA, PS2 or serial, plus a few other leds/ 7 segments
>would be nice, but not entirely necessary.
>
>Does anyone know of other cheep boards hopefully under 100usd that
>could be considerd a good starter kit?
>
>Thanks,
>Chris >
Personally i really like the Digilient Spartan-3 board (
https://digilent.us/Sales/Product.cfm?Prod=S3BOARD )
though id opt for the larger FPGA when ordered... Can never have enough
.. Too bad they dont offer the
even bigger chips. Its a tad over 100 with the 'upgrade'..

Although a bit more expensive the stuff @
http://www.trenz-electronic.de/prod/proden20.htm also look interesting
as you have many ports, and a wider array of FPGA options ( they are
plugin modules ).


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Re: Re: New to FPGA development - Alex Gibson - Jan 24 7:44:00 2005

Tony wrote:

>>
>>
>>
>Personally i really like the Digilient Spartan-3 board (
>https://digilent.us/Sales/Product.cfm?Prod=S3BOARD )
>though id opt for the larger FPGA when ordered... Can never have enough
>.. Too bad they dont offer the
>even bigger chips. Its a tad over 100 with the 'upgrade'..
Rumour says a larger version of the S3 kit may be comming soon.

Only thing a second ps2 port would be nice.
Can make your own or one of the addons with another ps/2.

The usb addon is great(but should be builtin on new boards from them)
and still haven't got around
to trying the ethernet addon.

The module boards look good for robotics etc.

On a board with larger fpga would be nice to have:
2 ps/2 , 1 vga (but at least 8bit or more color) , serial , usb jtag(on
board),
leds , switches, compact flash / system ace or flash, more ram .

Alex --
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date: 21/01/2005




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Re: New to FPGA development - rtstofer - Jan 26 15:25:00 2005



Is this a serious rumor, a marketing test or just a hope? I would
really like to buy another Starter Board if it had a MUCH larger
FPGA. One million gates would be good although I could get by with
300k or 400k.

--- In , Alex Gibson <alxx@t...> wrote:
> Tony wrote:
>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >Personally i really like the Digilient Spartan-3 board (
> >https://digilent.us/Sales/Product.cfm?Prod=S3BOARD )
> >though id opt for the larger FPGA when ordered... Can never have
enough
> >.. Too bad they dont offer the
> >even bigger chips. Its a tad over 100 with the 'upgrade'..
> >
> >
>
> Rumour says a larger version of the S3 kit may be comming soon.
>
> Only thing a second ps2 port would be nice.
> Can make your own or one of the addons with another ps/2.
>
> The usb addon is great(but should be builtin on new boards from
them)
> and still haven't got around
> to trying the ethernet addon.
>
> The module boards look good for robotics etc.
>
> On a board with larger fpga would be nice to have:
> 2 ps/2 , 1 vga (but at least 8bit or more color) , serial , usb jtag
(on
> board),
> leds , switches, compact flash / system ace or flash, more ram .
>
> Alex > --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date:
21/01/2005






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Re: New to FPGA development - Author Unknown - Jan 26 15:36:00 2005


--- In , "rtstofer" <rstofer@p...> wrote: > Is this a serious rumor, a marketing test or just a hope? I would
> really like to buy another Starter Board if it had a MUCH larger
> FPGA. One million gates would be good although I could get by with
> 300k or 400k.

There *is* a version of an S3 eval board which uses the XC3S400.
Nuhorizons sells it for $164 at

http://www.nuhorizons.com/products/xilinx/spartan3/development-board.html

It has lots of features on the board, but only provides 20 user IOs.
Still, this seems to be a pretty good bargain to me if it suits your
needs.






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Re: New to FPGA development - rtstofer - Jan 26 16:15:00 2005


Not really.

I erased my 'rant' about IO before I posted the message. I
absolutely hate the idea that the JTAG signals are present on EVERY
connector plus the dedicated header.

I also don't see any utility in having the SRAM address and data
carried out to the connectors. If someone is willing to give up
that much IO, do it through the FPGA by duplicating the signals!

My biggest complaint about the Starter Board is the paucity of IO at
the connectors. Well, maybe my second biggest complaint...

I am trying to build a 32 bit logic analyzer. Do you think that
there is one single 40 pin connector where I can bring in 32 signals
plus a trigger and external clock. Nope. But I can program it no
matter how I hook it up.

Seriously, one of the best features of the BurchED B5-300 board is
IO. The only dedicated pin is the single LED and I suppose it could
still be used as an input since it has a 2.7k resistor. The
downside is that everything else is off board.

Why have a 256 BGA with 20 IO for the user?

Ok, that's enough ranting. I like both boards and I am happy I have
them. They both fill a niche and I will keep them. Ranting when I
have time...

--- In , dsprelated@a... wrote:
>
> --- In , "rtstofer" <rstofer@p...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Is this a serious rumor, a marketing test or just a hope? I
would
> > really like to buy another Starter Board if it had a MUCH larger
> > FPGA. One million gates would be good although I could get by
with
> > 300k or 400k.
>
> There *is* a version of an S3 eval board which uses the XC3S400.
> Nuhorizons sells it for $164 at
>
> http://www.nuhorizons.com/products/xilinx/spartan3/development-
board.html
>
> It has lots of features on the board, but only provides 20 user
IOs.
> Still, this seems to be a pretty good bargain to me if it suits
your
> needs.






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Re: New to FPGA development - Author Unknown - Jan 26 16:41:00 2005


Well, how about this board?

http://www.enterpoint.co.uk/moelbryn/broaddown2.html

It uses a 456 pin package and multiple choices of FPGA with the
XC3S400 being the *smallest*. --- In , "rtstofer" <rstofer@p...> wrote:
>
> Not really.
>
> I erased my 'rant' about IO before I posted the message. I
> absolutely hate the idea that the JTAG signals are present on EVERY
> connector plus the dedicated header.





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Re: New to FPGA development - Author Unknown - Jan 26 16:54:00 2005


Here's another that seems to be nothing *but* IO.

http://www.trenz-electronic.de/prod/proden19.htm

Here is one that at least meets your 32 IO requirement.

http://www.orangetreetech.com/zestsc1.htm

And this one...

http://www.logic.nl/bcinfo.asp?bc=222 There may be more. I searched on "xc3s400 board" at Google and these
are just the ones on the first page. --- In , "rtstofer" <rstofer@p...> wrote:
>
> Not really.
>
> I erased my 'rant' about IO before I posted the message. I
> absolutely hate the idea that the JTAG signals are present on EVERY
> connector plus the dedicated header.






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Re: New to FPGA development - rtstofer - Jan 26 17:09:00 2005



That zestsc1 would be perfect for my immediate application! Just
the right stuff on board and plenty of IO. Way overpriced...

I guess I'll use two edge connectors on the Starter Board, save at
least $400 and just shut up.
--- In , dsprelated@a... wrote:
>
> Here's another that seems to be nothing *but* IO.
>
> http://www.trenz-electronic.de/prod/proden19.htm
>
> Here is one that at least meets your 32 IO requirement.
>
> http://www.orangetreetech.com/zestsc1.htm
>
> And this one...
>
> http://www.logic.nl/bcinfo.asp?bc=222 > There may be more. I searched on "xc3s400 board" at Google and
these
> are just the ones on the first page. > --- In , "rtstofer" <rstofer@p...> wrote:
> >
> > Not really.
> >
> > I erased my 'rant' about IO before I posted the message. I
> > absolutely hate the idea that the JTAG signals are present on
EVERY
> > connector plus the dedicated header.





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Re: Re: New to FPGA development - Kolja Sulimma - Jan 27 5:07:00 2005

On Wed, 2005-01-26 at 22:15, rtstofer wrote:

> I am trying to build a 32 bit logic analyzer. Do you think that
> there is one single 40 pin connector where I can bring in 32 signals
> plus a trigger and external clock. Nope. But I can program it no
> matter how I hook it up.

If internal ram is enough you can get USB 2.0 and 120 user IO on two
connectors from a Trenz Micromodule for 99¤.

Kolja Sulimma



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Re: New to FPGA development - Author Unknown - Jan 27 12:13:00 2005


--- In , "rtstofer" <rstofer@p...> wrote:
>
> I am trying to build a 32 bit logic analyzer. Do you think that
> there is one single 40 pin connector where I can bring in 32 signals
> plus a trigger and external clock. Nope. But I can program it no
> matter how I hook it up.

One thing I do on my boards is to use a standard connector and pin out
for logic analyzer connections. HP has several pinouts defined that
you can work with. One is a 40 pin connector with 16 signal, 2 clock,
2 power (don't know why?) and 20 grounds. This is their cable end.
You can use an adapter that they sell to condense this down to a 20
pin connector with just one ground and one power. I use this
footprint on my development boards (and will provide it on the
AT91SAM7 board I am designing) to allow rapid connection of the logic
analyzer. Otherwise you have to use all those little grabber things
which I don't really like.

If you can't find the info on the HP web site (opps, Agilent) I can
come up with the PDF file.






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Re: Re: New to FPGA development - Eric Smith - Jan 27 12:49:00 2005

> HP has several [logic analyzer probe] pinouts defined that
> you can work with. One is a 40 pin connector with 16 signal, 2 clock,
> 2 power (don't know why?) and 20 grounds. This is their cable end.
> You can use an adapter that they sell to condense this down to a 20
> pin connector with just one ground and one power.

Watch out! The HP/Agilent 20-pin target connector is at target (device)
logic levels, but the 40-pin probe cable connector is not. The
HP/Agilent 01650-63203 "termination adapter" is not a straight
pass-through, but contain an RC network, just as their lead sets that
plug onto the probe cable do. This to provide high input impedance.
It's documented in the manual for the termination adapter, which I've
seen in paper form but can't find on the Agilent web site, or in
"Probing Solutions for Logic Analyzers", Agilent document 5968-4632E,
dated March 27, 2003:
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5968-4632E.pdf

8.2 pF
target +------| (-------+ analyzer pod
connector | | connector
250 ohm | 90.9 Kohm |
signal -------/\/\/\----+-----/\/\/\-----+--------- signal

ground -------------------------------------------- ground If you're building a target device intended to work with an HP/Agilent
analyzer, you want the 20-pin connectors, or the newer "Mictor"
high-density ones. If you want the target to be compatable with the
HP/Agilent 40-pin probe cable connector, you have to put the RC networks
on the target board.

If you're building your own logic analyzer, and want to support
HP/Agilent lead sets or termination adapters, you will have to take the
RC network into consideration.

Eric




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Re: New to FPGA development - Author Unknown - Jan 27 13:33:00 2005


--- In , "Eric Smith" <eric@b...> wrote:
> > HP has several [logic analyzer probe] pinouts defined that
> > you can work with. One is a 40 pin connector with 16 signal, 2 clock,
> > 2 power (don't know why?) and 20 grounds. This is their cable end.
> > You can use an adapter that they sell to condense this down to a 20
> > pin connector with just one ground and one power.
>
> Watch out! The HP/Agilent 20-pin target connector is at target (device)
> logic levels, but the 40-pin probe cable connector is not. The
> HP/Agilent 01650-63203 "termination adapter" is not a straight
> pass-through, but contain an RC network, just as their lead sets that
> plug onto the probe cable do. This to provide high input impedance.
> It's documented in the manual for the termination adapter, which I've
> seen in paper form but can't find on the Agilent web site, or in
> "Probing Solutions for Logic Analyzers", Agilent document 5968-4632E,
> dated March 27, 2003:
> http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5968-4632E.pdf
>
> 8.2 pF
> target +------| (-------+ analyzer pod
> connector | | connector
> 250 ohm | 90.9 Kohm |
> signal -------/\/\/\----+-----/\/\/\-----+--------- signal
>
> ground -------------------------------------------- ground > If you're building a target device intended to work with an HP/Agilent
> analyzer, you want the 20-pin connectors, or the newer "Mictor"
> high-density ones. If you want the target to be compatable with the
> HP/Agilent 40-pin probe cable connector, you have to put the RC networks
> on the target board.
>
> If you're building your own logic analyzer, and want to support
> HP/Agilent lead sets or termination adapters, you will have to take the
> RC network into consideration.

Thanks for the info. I have always used their 20 pin adapter, so I
forgot about it containing the RC network. This is also covered in
their App Note 1244-1 which I have uploaded to the files section of
the AT91SAM7 group (since that is where I am using the connectors at
the moment).

I have looked at the Mictor connector, but I seem to recall that it
has a downside. Maybe it is just not compatible with the older logic
analyzers? Or maybe it is the cost, I know HP stuff is not cheap. I
can't recall.





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