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Discussion Groups | M68HC11 | What's the true status?
Technical discussions about Freescale Microcontrollers: M68HC11. (Freescale Semiconductor is a Subsidiary of Motorola).
What's the true status? - Tony Papadimitriou - Apr 29 15:54:00 2005
OK, let's get started again.
Something's not right with Freescale.
Some days ago, I pointed out that they list practically every 68HC11 part as
"Not Recommended For New Design" in the status column. They still do today.
But, I just download their selection guide (2 quarter 2005, that is this
quarter) and they list the same parts as simply "available" in the status
column of the tables.
So, do we need to start packing and go to another MCU or not? Can't anyone
from Freescale come out and tell us the real story?
Danke!
tonyp@tony...
(You need to be a member of hc11 -- send a blank email to hc11-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Something's not right with Freescale.
Some days ago, I pointed out that they list practically every 68HC11 part as
"Not Recommended For New Design" in the status column. They still do today.
But, I just download their selection guide (2 quarter 2005, that is this
quarter) and they list the same parts as simply "available" in the status
column of the tables.
So, do we need to start packing and go to another MCU or not? Can't anyone
from Freescale come out and tell us the real story?
Danke!
tonyp@tony...
(You need to be a member of hc11 -- send a blank email to hc11-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: What's the true status? - David Kelly - Apr 29 18:29:00 2005
On Fri, Apr 29, 2005 at 10:54:50PM +0300, Tony Papadimitriou wrote:
>
> Some days ago, I pointed out that they list practically every 68HC11
> part as "Not Recommended For New Design" in the status column. They
> still do today.
>
> But, I just download their selection guide (2 quarter 2005, that is
> this quarter) and they list the same parts as simply "available" in
> the status column of the tables.
So what about the term "available" conflicts with your understanding of
"not recommended"? Is clear to me that Freescale is stating the time is
coming when the "not recommended" parts will become "not available." Is
nice of them to "not recommend" the parts before supplies run out.
Am not letting it bother me. Have had at least 12 years of life out of
my main 68HC11 designs. Have not put one in a new design in a very long
time simply because there were better products available. In its day the
HC11 was the first affordable MCU which could run C generated code
without major contortions.
Our product volume isn't enough else I would have replaced the HC11 long
time ago. When HC11 becomes unobtainium the boss's hand will be forced.
--
David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@dkel...
========================================================================
Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
(You need to be a member of hc11 -- send a blank email to hc11-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
>
> Some days ago, I pointed out that they list practically every 68HC11
> part as "Not Recommended For New Design" in the status column. They
> still do today.
>
> But, I just download their selection guide (2 quarter 2005, that is
> this quarter) and they list the same parts as simply "available" in
> the status column of the tables.
So what about the term "available" conflicts with your understanding of
"not recommended"? Is clear to me that Freescale is stating the time is
coming when the "not recommended" parts will become "not available." Is
nice of them to "not recommend" the parts before supplies run out.
Am not letting it bother me. Have had at least 12 years of life out of
my main 68HC11 designs. Have not put one in a new design in a very long
time simply because there were better products available. In its day the
HC11 was the first affordable MCU which could run C generated code
without major contortions.
Our product volume isn't enough else I would have replaced the HC11 long
time ago. When HC11 becomes unobtainium the boss's hand will be forced.
--
David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@dkel...
========================================================================
Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
(You need to be a member of hc11 -- send a blank email to hc11-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: What's the true status? - Tony Papadimitriou - Apr 29 18:45:00 2005
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Kelly" <dkelly@dkel...>
To: <m68HC11@m68H...
> So what about the term "available" conflicts with your understanding of
> "not recommended"? Is clear to me that Freescale is stating the time is
> coming when the "not recommended" parts will become "not available." Is
> nice of them to "not recommend" the parts before supplies run out.
That something "not recommended" is "available" is not the problem.
Obviously, if it's not unavailable, it is available.
It's not a question of linguistics. It's just that they (Freescale) use
these terms with different meanings in their various documents. When the
word "available" in the status column appears together (for another part)
with the phrase "Not Recommended For New Design", it clearly implies that a
part can belong either in one status or the other, but not both at the same
time. So, if it's "available" in one document, it can't be "Not
Recommended" in another, because these two terms are used *by them* to
describe STATUS. To me at least, this is confusing.
> Our product volume isn't enough else I would have replaced the HC11 long
> time ago. When HC11 becomes unobtainium the boss's hand will be forced.
Sure, that's an option. But it's like waiting after you die to prepare your
will.
> David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@dkel...
tonyp@tony...
(You need to be a member of hc11 -- send a blank email to hc11-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
From: "David Kelly" <dkelly@dkel...>
To: <m68HC11@m68H...
> So what about the term "available" conflicts with your understanding of
> "not recommended"? Is clear to me that Freescale is stating the time is
> coming when the "not recommended" parts will become "not available." Is
> nice of them to "not recommend" the parts before supplies run out.
That something "not recommended" is "available" is not the problem.
Obviously, if it's not unavailable, it is available.
It's not a question of linguistics. It's just that they (Freescale) use
these terms with different meanings in their various documents. When the
word "available" in the status column appears together (for another part)
with the phrase "Not Recommended For New Design", it clearly implies that a
part can belong either in one status or the other, but not both at the same
time. So, if it's "available" in one document, it can't be "Not
Recommended" in another, because these two terms are used *by them* to
describe STATUS. To me at least, this is confusing.
> Our product volume isn't enough else I would have replaced the HC11 long
> time ago. When HC11 becomes unobtainium the boss's hand will be forced.
Sure, that's an option. But it's like waiting after you die to prepare your
will.
> David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@dkel...
tonyp@tony...
(You need to be a member of hc11 -- send a blank email to hc11-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: What's the true status? - Author Unknown - Apr 29 19:08:00 2005
The web says, not recommended for new designs, this is correct, in fact for OEMs this
is NOT news, the HC11 is two generations out of date, so this should be no surprise. The
current focus family for 16 bit is S12(X) which is built in 0.25um, the HC11 is mainly
built in 1.2um. However the HC11 has NOT been End of Lifed, it will continue in production
as long as there is resonable demand.
freegeek
www.freegeeks.net
----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Papadimitriou
To: m68HC11@m68H...
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 8:54 PM
Subject: [m68HC11] What's the true status? OK, let's get started again.
Something's not right with Freescale.
Some days ago, I pointed out that they list practically every 68HC11 part as
"Not Recommended For New Design" in the status column. They still do today.
But, I just download their selection guide (2 quarter 2005, that is this
quarter) and they list the same parts as simply "available" in the status
column of the tables.
So, do we need to start packing and go to another MCU or not? Can't anyone
from Freescale come out and tell us the real story?
Danke!
tonyp@tony...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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freegeek
www.freegeeks.net
----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Papadimitriou
To: m68HC11@m68H...
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 8:54 PM
Subject: [m68HC11] What's the true status? OK, let's get started again.
Something's not right with Freescale.
Some days ago, I pointed out that they list practically every 68HC11 part as
"Not Recommended For New Design" in the status column. They still do today.
But, I just download their selection guide (2 quarter 2005, that is this
quarter) and they list the same parts as simply "available" in the status
column of the tables.
So, do we need to start packing and go to another MCU or not? Can't anyone
from Freescale come out and tell us the real story?
Danke!
tonyp@tony...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
(You need to be a member of hc11 -- send a blank email to hc11-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: What's the true status? - Tony Papadimitriou - Apr 30 10:20:00 2005
Well, I am an OEM and I have no more news than you have. Unless you mean
million-parts-per-year OEMs.
Two generations out of date, counting what exactly? The HC12 before the
S12, is that what you mean? The HC[S]12 is a different member and they even
list it in the 16-bit category, so for 8-bitters, their only viable option
seems to be the HC[S]08 which is a step down from the HC11.
Their 8-bit MCU roadmap PDF has only HC[S]08 parts. Yet, the product
selection menu lists HC05, HC[S]08, and HC11 categories. If they don't want
people to continue buying a part for new designs they should remove it from
their selection lists. Those who already use their part know about it and
may continue using it until it is EOLed but newcomers won't be misled into
thinking this is a product they can use. Same thing with 68HC16, it seems
to be EOLed, yet "in production" (and recommended since the "not
recommended" status isn't there yet).
Their 16-bit MCU roadmap PDF (Nov 3, 2004 seems to be the latest) has only
9S12 listed.
So, I should assume that for 8-bit, Freescale offers ONLY the HC08 and 9S08
and for 16-bit ONLY the 9S12, yet their site gives a lot more choices (HC05,
HC11, HC12, HC16, and 56800).
Anyway, rather than going into lengthy philosophical discussions, wouldn't
it be easier if someone with an official voice set things straight (starting
from their web site)?
tonyp@tony...
----- Original Message -----
From: <freegeek@free...>
To: <m68HC11@m68H... > The web says, not recommended for new designs, this is correct, in fact
for OEMs this is NOT news, the HC11 is two generations out of date, so this
should be no surprise. The current focus family for 16 bit is S12(X) which
is built in 0.25um, the HC11 is mainly built in 1.2um. However the HC11 has
NOT been End of Lifed, it will continue in production as long as there is
resonable demand.
>
> freegeek
> www.freegeeks.net
(You need to be a member of hc11 -- send a blank email to hc11-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
million-parts-per-year OEMs.
Two generations out of date, counting what exactly? The HC12 before the
S12, is that what you mean? The HC[S]12 is a different member and they even
list it in the 16-bit category, so for 8-bitters, their only viable option
seems to be the HC[S]08 which is a step down from the HC11.
Their 8-bit MCU roadmap PDF has only HC[S]08 parts. Yet, the product
selection menu lists HC05, HC[S]08, and HC11 categories. If they don't want
people to continue buying a part for new designs they should remove it from
their selection lists. Those who already use their part know about it and
may continue using it until it is EOLed but newcomers won't be misled into
thinking this is a product they can use. Same thing with 68HC16, it seems
to be EOLed, yet "in production" (and recommended since the "not
recommended" status isn't there yet).
Their 16-bit MCU roadmap PDF (Nov 3, 2004 seems to be the latest) has only
9S12 listed.
So, I should assume that for 8-bit, Freescale offers ONLY the HC08 and 9S08
and for 16-bit ONLY the 9S12, yet their site gives a lot more choices (HC05,
HC11, HC12, HC16, and 56800).
Anyway, rather than going into lengthy philosophical discussions, wouldn't
it be easier if someone with an official voice set things straight (starting
from their web site)?
tonyp@tony...
----- Original Message -----
From: <freegeek@free...>
To: <m68HC11@m68H... > The web says, not recommended for new designs, this is correct, in fact
for OEMs this is NOT news, the HC11 is two generations out of date, so this
should be no surprise. The current focus family for 16 bit is S12(X) which
is built in 0.25um, the HC11 is mainly built in 1.2um. However the HC11 has
NOT been End of Lifed, it will continue in production as long as there is
resonable demand.
>
> freegeek
> www.freegeeks.net
(You need to be a member of hc11 -- send a blank email to hc11-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
RE: What's the true status? - Kerry Berland - May 4 19:54:00 2005
Tony-
I don't really think that the 68HC05 and 68HC11 status is all that unclear.
And I think Freescale is actually doing a good job on this matter. Much,
much better than in past years. In the past it would happen that
customers-especially smaller ones, like our company-would not find out about
a product discontinuance until we tried to order parts from a large
distributor and found out that the part is now obsolete.
By stating that these parts are NOT RECOMMENDED FOR NEW DESIGNS, they are
giving considerable advance warning that they will probably be discontinued
at some time in the future. My understanding is that this may come in the
2006 or 2007 time frame. So they are giving a lot of advance notice. Before
the parts are totally discontinued, at some time in the future, specific
parts will go onto LIFE TIME BUY, and we will still get a considerable
number of months after that to order any additional parts needed for our
product lines.
So throughout 2005, into 2006 and maybe 2007, these parts are still
AVAILABLE. (However, my understanding is that a price increase has already
taken place as between Freescale and its distributors, and more may happen
in the future before these families are discontinued.)
However in Freescale marketing presentations that are intended to guide
engineers as to which parts they would like us to use for new designs, many
of these parts no longer appear.
I don't see the contradiction in any of this. On the contrary, Freescale is
giving lots of advance notice so that we can have plenty of time to
redesign. The status of each part is now shown on its product page, which is
a refreshing change from the past, when that kind of roadmap information was
a lot harder to get.
The Freescale people I have talked to have explained the background as
follows.
Their volumes have already fallen very significantly on the 68HC11 and the
68HC05. I believe they have lost most of their high-volume business in the
automotive and communications business on these parts, in large part since
those customers have already for the most part transitioned to 12 and 08
family parts. The Freescale factory costs are going up, due to the decreased
volumes. They're only making these older parts in a few fabs. These parts
are made using MUCH less fine-pitch geometries than the newer parts, and
they get far fewer parts per wafer.
It's already true that you can buy far more capable 12 series parts than
comparable 11 series parts, at lower costs. Same for 08 versus 05.
All good things come to an end, including the 68HC11..
Best regards,
Kerry Berland
kerry@kerr...
Silicon Engines
2101 Oxford Road
847-803-6860
Fax 847-803-6870
Des Plaines, IL 60018 USA
-----Original Message-----
From: m68HC11@m68H... [mailto:m68HC11@m68H...] On Behalf Of
Tony Papadimitriou
Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 8:20 AM
To: m68HC11@m68H...
Subject: Re: [m68HC11] What's the true status?
Well, I am an OEM and I have no more news than you have. Unless you mean
million-parts-per-year OEMs.
Two generations out of date, counting what exactly? The HC12 before the
S12, is that what you mean? The HC[S]12 is a different member and they even
list it in the 16-bit category, so for 8-bitters, their only viable option
seems to be the HC[S]08 which is a step down from the HC11.
Their 8-bit MCU roadmap PDF has only HC[S]08 parts. Yet, the product
selection menu lists HC05, HC[S]08, and HC11 categories. If they don't want
people to continue buying a part for new designs they should remove it from
their selection lists. Those who already use their part know about it and
may continue using it until it is EOLed but newcomers won't be misled into
thinking this is a product they can use. Same thing with 68HC16, it seems
to be EOLed, yet "in production" (and recommended since the "not
recommended" status isn't there yet).
Their 16-bit MCU roadmap PDF (Nov 3, 2004 seems to be the latest) has only
9S12 listed.
So, I should assume that for 8-bit, Freescale offers ONLY the HC08 and 9S08
and for 16-bit ONLY the 9S12, yet their site gives a lot more choices (HC05,
HC11, HC12, HC16, and 56800).
Anyway, rather than going into lengthy philosophical discussions, wouldn't
it be easier if someone with an official voice set things straight (starting
from their web site)?
tonyp@tony...
----- Original Message -----
From: <freegeek@free...>
To: <m68HC11@m68H... > The web says, not recommended for new designs, this is correct, in fact
for OEMs this is NOT news, the HC11 is two generations out of date, so this
should be no surprise. The current focus family for 16 bit is S12(X) which
is built in 0.25um, the HC11 is mainly built in 1.2um. However the HC11 has
NOT been End of Lifed, it will continue in production as long as there is
resonable demand.
>
> freegeek
> www.freegeeks.net
_____
> .
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
(You need to be a member of hc11 -- send a blank email to hc11-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
I don't really think that the 68HC05 and 68HC11 status is all that unclear.
And I think Freescale is actually doing a good job on this matter. Much,
much better than in past years. In the past it would happen that
customers-especially smaller ones, like our company-would not find out about
a product discontinuance until we tried to order parts from a large
distributor and found out that the part is now obsolete.
By stating that these parts are NOT RECOMMENDED FOR NEW DESIGNS, they are
giving considerable advance warning that they will probably be discontinued
at some time in the future. My understanding is that this may come in the
2006 or 2007 time frame. So they are giving a lot of advance notice. Before
the parts are totally discontinued, at some time in the future, specific
parts will go onto LIFE TIME BUY, and we will still get a considerable
number of months after that to order any additional parts needed for our
product lines.
So throughout 2005, into 2006 and maybe 2007, these parts are still
AVAILABLE. (However, my understanding is that a price increase has already
taken place as between Freescale and its distributors, and more may happen
in the future before these families are discontinued.)
However in Freescale marketing presentations that are intended to guide
engineers as to which parts they would like us to use for new designs, many
of these parts no longer appear.
I don't see the contradiction in any of this. On the contrary, Freescale is
giving lots of advance notice so that we can have plenty of time to
redesign. The status of each part is now shown on its product page, which is
a refreshing change from the past, when that kind of roadmap information was
a lot harder to get.
The Freescale people I have talked to have explained the background as
follows.
Their volumes have already fallen very significantly on the 68HC11 and the
68HC05. I believe they have lost most of their high-volume business in the
automotive and communications business on these parts, in large part since
those customers have already for the most part transitioned to 12 and 08
family parts. The Freescale factory costs are going up, due to the decreased
volumes. They're only making these older parts in a few fabs. These parts
are made using MUCH less fine-pitch geometries than the newer parts, and
they get far fewer parts per wafer.
It's already true that you can buy far more capable 12 series parts than
comparable 11 series parts, at lower costs. Same for 08 versus 05.
All good things come to an end, including the 68HC11..
Best regards,
Kerry Berland
kerry@kerr...
Silicon Engines
2101 Oxford Road
847-803-6860
Fax 847-803-6870
Des Plaines, IL 60018 USA
-----Original Message-----
From: m68HC11@m68H... [mailto:m68HC11@m68H...] On Behalf Of
Tony Papadimitriou
Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 8:20 AM
To: m68HC11@m68H...
Subject: Re: [m68HC11] What's the true status?
Well, I am an OEM and I have no more news than you have. Unless you mean
million-parts-per-year OEMs.
Two generations out of date, counting what exactly? The HC12 before the
S12, is that what you mean? The HC[S]12 is a different member and they even
list it in the 16-bit category, so for 8-bitters, their only viable option
seems to be the HC[S]08 which is a step down from the HC11.
Their 8-bit MCU roadmap PDF has only HC[S]08 parts. Yet, the product
selection menu lists HC05, HC[S]08, and HC11 categories. If they don't want
people to continue buying a part for new designs they should remove it from
their selection lists. Those who already use their part know about it and
may continue using it until it is EOLed but newcomers won't be misled into
thinking this is a product they can use. Same thing with 68HC16, it seems
to be EOLed, yet "in production" (and recommended since the "not
recommended" status isn't there yet).
Their 16-bit MCU roadmap PDF (Nov 3, 2004 seems to be the latest) has only
9S12 listed.
So, I should assume that for 8-bit, Freescale offers ONLY the HC08 and 9S08
and for 16-bit ONLY the 9S12, yet their site gives a lot more choices (HC05,
HC11, HC12, HC16, and 56800).
Anyway, rather than going into lengthy philosophical discussions, wouldn't
it be easier if someone with an official voice set things straight (starting
from their web site)?
tonyp@tony...
----- Original Message -----
From: <freegeek@free...>
To: <m68HC11@m68H... > The web says, not recommended for new designs, this is correct, in fact
for OEMs this is NOT news, the HC11 is two generations out of date, so this
should be no surprise. The current focus family for 16 bit is S12(X) which
is built in 0.25um, the HC11 is mainly built in 1.2um. However the HC11 has
NOT been End of Lifed, it will continue in production as long as there is
resonable demand.
>
> freegeek
> www.freegeeks.net
_____
> .
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
(You need to be a member of hc11 -- send a blank email to hc11-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: What's the true status? - Tony Papadimitriou - May 5 6:17:00 2005
Kerry and others,
I think I was misunderstood.
I have no problem with the HC11 coming to an end, it is expected of all
creatures. My 'complaint' is with the way Freescale confuses potential
users, new and old.
Assume for a moment I know nothing about the HC11 and come across the
Freescale web site for the first time (e.g., I used other brands before and
decided to try my luck with Freescale). I go to
Products/Microcontrollers/8-bit to select what to use. There I see a bunch
of options. Nowhere does it say that some of these are doomed options. I
download the datasheets and no warning there, either (remember how they
usually put big transparent "not recommended" diagonally all over the
pages?) And since I can go ahead and order and actually get these parts at
this time, I may not find out about this problem until a year or so down the
road.
Of course the above assumption is wrong in my case, as I'm not new to the
product. But, from my point of view, if they don't warn newcomers about an
upcoming discontinuance of a part in the not too distant future, I feel I'm
OK, too. Until (*by pure chance*) I happen to come across the "not
recommended" note buried somewhere in there. Do I have to constantly read
the whole Freescale web site lest I miss those "not recommended" notes?
Shouldn't, for example, a download of their latest datasheet version (some
updated as late as a couple of months ago) be enough?
Wouldn't it be nicer to have all futureless parts appear (*wherever* and
*everywhere* they appear) with some kind of note indicating these are not
recommended but only available for the sake of existing users. For example,
the main selection menu could be changed to, say,
'Products/Microcontrollers/NotRecommended/8-bit/68HC11', etc. for the other
unfortunate parts.
This isn't the case. One must be 'lucky' to hit the one or possibly two
places where this note appears, and if s/he misses it take the road to
oblivion!
That's all.
>Anyway, I think that all this advance notice is very positive, not
negative.
Agree!
> I don't really think that the 68HC05 and 68HC11 status is all that
unclear.
> And I think Freescale is actually doing a good job on this matter. Much,
> much better than in past years. In the past it would happen that
> customers-especially smaller ones, like our company-would not find out
about
> a product discontinuance until we tried to order parts from a large
> distributor and found out that the part is now obsolete.
Not much difference today, I think.
> Kerry Berland
tonyp@tony... ----- Original Message -----
From: "Kerry Berland" <kerry@kerr...>
To: <m68HC11@m68H...>
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 2:54 AM
Subject: RE: [m68HC11] What's the true status?
______________________________
controlSUITE™ software. Comprehensive. Intuitive. Optimized.
Real-world software for real-time control. Details Here!
(You need to be a member of hc11 -- send a blank email to hc11-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
I think I was misunderstood.
I have no problem with the HC11 coming to an end, it is expected of all
creatures. My 'complaint' is with the way Freescale confuses potential
users, new and old.
Assume for a moment I know nothing about the HC11 and come across the
Freescale web site for the first time (e.g., I used other brands before and
decided to try my luck with Freescale). I go to
Products/Microcontrollers/8-bit to select what to use. There I see a bunch
of options. Nowhere does it say that some of these are doomed options. I
download the datasheets and no warning there, either (remember how they
usually put big transparent "not recommended" diagonally all over the
pages?) And since I can go ahead and order and actually get these parts at
this time, I may not find out about this problem until a year or so down the
road.
Of course the above assumption is wrong in my case, as I'm not new to the
product. But, from my point of view, if they don't warn newcomers about an
upcoming discontinuance of a part in the not too distant future, I feel I'm
OK, too. Until (*by pure chance*) I happen to come across the "not
recommended" note buried somewhere in there. Do I have to constantly read
the whole Freescale web site lest I miss those "not recommended" notes?
Shouldn't, for example, a download of their latest datasheet version (some
updated as late as a couple of months ago) be enough?
Wouldn't it be nicer to have all futureless parts appear (*wherever* and
*everywhere* they appear) with some kind of note indicating these are not
recommended but only available for the sake of existing users. For example,
the main selection menu could be changed to, say,
'Products/Microcontrollers/NotRecommended/8-bit/68HC11', etc. for the other
unfortunate parts.
This isn't the case. One must be 'lucky' to hit the one or possibly two
places where this note appears, and if s/he misses it take the road to
oblivion!
That's all.
>Anyway, I think that all this advance notice is very positive, not
negative.
Agree!
> I don't really think that the 68HC05 and 68HC11 status is all that
unclear.
> And I think Freescale is actually doing a good job on this matter. Much,
> much better than in past years. In the past it would happen that
> customers-especially smaller ones, like our company-would not find out
about
> a product discontinuance until we tried to order parts from a large
> distributor and found out that the part is now obsolete.
Not much difference today, I think.
> Kerry Berland
tonyp@tony... ----- Original Message -----
From: "Kerry Berland" <kerry@kerr...>
To: <m68HC11@m68H...>
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 2:54 AM
Subject: RE: [m68HC11] What's the true status?
______________________________
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Re: What's the true status? - Michael Huslig - May 5 9:15:00 2005
I had just finished laying out a new re-design with the HC11F1 when I
noticed the "not recommended" status. We had to scrap it because we
couldn't afford to do another FCC/CE test in a year or two.
Unless I missed it, what they should have done was include the status change
in the "Semiconductor Update" email they send out periodically.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kerry Berland" <kerry@kerr...>
To: <m68HC11@m68H...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 6:54 PM
Subject: RE: [m68HC11] What's the true status? > Tony- >
> I don't really think that the 68HC05 and 68HC11 status is all that
> unclear.
> And I think Freescale is actually doing a good job on this matter. Much,
> much better than in past years. In the past it would happen that
> customers-especially smaller ones, like our company-would not find out
> about
> a product discontinuance until we tried to order parts from a large
> distributor and found out that the part is now obsolete. >
> By stating that these parts are NOT RECOMMENDED FOR NEW DESIGNS, they are
> giving considerable advance warning that they will probably be
> discontinued
> at some time in the future. My understanding is that this may come in the
> 2006 or 2007 time frame. So they are giving a lot of advance notice.
> Before
> the parts are totally discontinued, at some time in the future, specific
> parts will go onto LIFE TIME BUY, and we will still get a considerable
> number of months after that to order any additional parts needed for our
> product lines. >
> So throughout 2005, into 2006 and maybe 2007, these parts are still
> AVAILABLE. (However, my understanding is that a price increase has already
> taken place as between Freescale and its distributors, and more may happen
> in the future before these families are discontinued.) >
> However in Freescale marketing presentations that are intended to guide
> engineers as to which parts they would like us to use for new designs,
> many
> of these parts no longer appear. >
> I don't see the contradiction in any of this. On the contrary, Freescale
> is
> giving lots of advance notice so that we can have plenty of time to
> redesign. The status of each part is now shown on its product page, which
> is
> a refreshing change from the past, when that kind of roadmap information
> was
> a lot harder to get. >
> The Freescale people I have talked to have explained the background as
> follows. >
> Their volumes have already fallen very significantly on the 68HC11 and the
> 68HC05. I believe they have lost most of their high-volume business in the
> automotive and communications business on these parts, in large part since
> those customers have already for the most part transitioned to 12 and 08
> family parts. The Freescale factory costs are going up, due to the
> decreased
> volumes. They're only making these older parts in a few fabs. These parts
> are made using MUCH less fine-pitch geometries than the newer parts, and
> they get far fewer parts per wafer. >
> It's already true that you can buy far more capable 12 series parts than
> comparable 11 series parts, at lower costs. Same for 08 versus 05. >
> All good things come to an end, including the 68HC11.. >
> Best regards,
>
> Kerry Berland
> kerry@kerr...
> Silicon Engines
> 2101 Oxford Road
> 847-803-6860
> Fax 847-803-6870
> Des Plaines, IL 60018 USA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: m68HC11@m68H... [mailto:m68HC11@m68H...] On Behalf
> Of
> Tony Papadimitriou
> Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 8:20 AM
> To: m68HC11@m68H...
> Subject: Re: [m68HC11] What's the true status? >
> Well, I am an OEM and I have no more news than you have. Unless you mean
> million-parts-per-year OEMs.
>
> Two generations out of date, counting what exactly? The HC12 before the
> S12, is that what you mean? The HC[S]12 is a different member and they
> even
> list it in the 16-bit category, so for 8-bitters, their only viable option
> seems to be the HC[S]08 which is a step down from the HC11.
>
> Their 8-bit MCU roadmap PDF has only HC[S]08 parts. Yet, the product
> selection menu lists HC05, HC[S]08, and HC11 categories. If they don't
> want
> people to continue buying a part for new designs they should remove it
> from
> their selection lists. Those who already use their part know about it and
> may continue using it until it is EOLed but newcomers won't be misled into
> thinking this is a product they can use. Same thing with 68HC16, it seems
> to be EOLed, yet "in production" (and recommended since the "not
> recommended" status isn't there yet).
>
> Their 16-bit MCU roadmap PDF (Nov 3, 2004 seems to be the latest) has only
> 9S12 listed.
>
> So, I should assume that for 8-bit, Freescale offers ONLY the HC08 and
> 9S08
> and for 16-bit ONLY the 9S12, yet their site gives a lot more choices
> (HC05,
> HC11, HC12, HC16, and 56800).
>
> Anyway, rather than going into lengthy philosophical discussions, wouldn't
> it be easier if someone with an official voice set things straight
> (starting
> from their web site)?
>
> tonyp@tony...
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <freegeek@free...>
> To: <m68HC11@m68H... >> The web says, not recommended for new designs, this is correct, in fact
> for OEMs this is NOT news, the HC11 is two generations out of date, so
> this
> should be no surprise. The current focus family for 16 bit is S12(X) which
> is built in 0.25um, the HC11 is mainly built in 1.2um. However the HC11
> has
> NOT been End of Lifed, it will continue in production as long as there is
> resonable demand.
>>
>> freegeek
>> www.freegeeks.net >
>
> _____
>
> > . >
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
(You need to be a member of hc11 -- send a blank email to hc11-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
noticed the "not recommended" status. We had to scrap it because we
couldn't afford to do another FCC/CE test in a year or two.
Unless I missed it, what they should have done was include the status change
in the "Semiconductor Update" email they send out periodically.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kerry Berland" <kerry@kerr...>
To: <m68HC11@m68H...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 6:54 PM
Subject: RE: [m68HC11] What's the true status? > Tony- >
> I don't really think that the 68HC05 and 68HC11 status is all that
> unclear.
> And I think Freescale is actually doing a good job on this matter. Much,
> much better than in past years. In the past it would happen that
> customers-especially smaller ones, like our company-would not find out
> about
> a product discontinuance until we tried to order parts from a large
> distributor and found out that the part is now obsolete. >
> By stating that these parts are NOT RECOMMENDED FOR NEW DESIGNS, they are
> giving considerable advance warning that they will probably be
> discontinued
> at some time in the future. My understanding is that this may come in the
> 2006 or 2007 time frame. So they are giving a lot of advance notice.
> Before
> the parts are totally discontinued, at some time in the future, specific
> parts will go onto LIFE TIME BUY, and we will still get a considerable
> number of months after that to order any additional parts needed for our
> product lines. >
> So throughout 2005, into 2006 and maybe 2007, these parts are still
> AVAILABLE. (However, my understanding is that a price increase has already
> taken place as between Freescale and its distributors, and more may happen
> in the future before these families are discontinued.) >
> However in Freescale marketing presentations that are intended to guide
> engineers as to which parts they would like us to use for new designs,
> many
> of these parts no longer appear. >
> I don't see the contradiction in any of this. On the contrary, Freescale
> is
> giving lots of advance notice so that we can have plenty of time to
> redesign. The status of each part is now shown on its product page, which
> is
> a refreshing change from the past, when that kind of roadmap information
> was
> a lot harder to get. >
> The Freescale people I have talked to have explained the background as
> follows. >
> Their volumes have already fallen very significantly on the 68HC11 and the
> 68HC05. I believe they have lost most of their high-volume business in the
> automotive and communications business on these parts, in large part since
> those customers have already for the most part transitioned to 12 and 08
> family parts. The Freescale factory costs are going up, due to the
> decreased
> volumes. They're only making these older parts in a few fabs. These parts
> are made using MUCH less fine-pitch geometries than the newer parts, and
> they get far fewer parts per wafer. >
> It's already true that you can buy far more capable 12 series parts than
> comparable 11 series parts, at lower costs. Same for 08 versus 05. >
> All good things come to an end, including the 68HC11.. >
> Best regards,
>
> Kerry Berland
> kerry@kerr...
> Silicon Engines
> 2101 Oxford Road
> 847-803-6860
> Fax 847-803-6870
> Des Plaines, IL 60018 USA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: m68HC11@m68H... [mailto:m68HC11@m68H...] On Behalf
> Of
> Tony Papadimitriou
> Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 8:20 AM
> To: m68HC11@m68H...
> Subject: Re: [m68HC11] What's the true status? >
> Well, I am an OEM and I have no more news than you have. Unless you mean
> million-parts-per-year OEMs.
>
> Two generations out of date, counting what exactly? The HC12 before the
> S12, is that what you mean? The HC[S]12 is a different member and they
> even
> list it in the 16-bit category, so for 8-bitters, their only viable option
> seems to be the HC[S]08 which is a step down from the HC11.
>
> Their 8-bit MCU roadmap PDF has only HC[S]08 parts. Yet, the product
> selection menu lists HC05, HC[S]08, and HC11 categories. If they don't
> want
> people to continue buying a part for new designs they should remove it
> from
> their selection lists. Those who already use their part know about it and
> may continue using it until it is EOLed but newcomers won't be misled into
> thinking this is a product they can use. Same thing with 68HC16, it seems
> to be EOLed, yet "in production" (and recommended since the "not
> recommended" status isn't there yet).
>
> Their 16-bit MCU roadmap PDF (Nov 3, 2004 seems to be the latest) has only
> 9S12 listed.
>
> So, I should assume that for 8-bit, Freescale offers ONLY the HC08 and
> 9S08
> and for 16-bit ONLY the 9S12, yet their site gives a lot more choices
> (HC05,
> HC11, HC12, HC16, and 56800).
>
> Anyway, rather than going into lengthy philosophical discussions, wouldn't
> it be easier if someone with an official voice set things straight
> (starting
> from their web site)?
>
> tonyp@tony...
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <freegeek@free...>
> To: <m68HC11@m68H... >> The web says, not recommended for new designs, this is correct, in fact
> for OEMs this is NOT news, the HC11 is two generations out of date, so
> this
> should be no surprise. The current focus family for 16 bit is S12(X) which
> is built in 0.25um, the HC11 is mainly built in 1.2um. However the HC11
> has
> NOT been End of Lifed, it will continue in production as long as there is
> resonable demand.
>>
>> freegeek
>> www.freegeeks.net >
>
> _____
>
> > . >
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
(You need to be a member of hc11 -- send a blank email to hc11-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: What's the true status? - Tony Papadimitriou - May 5 9:20:00 2005
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Huslig" <mhuslig@mhus...>
To: <m68HC11@m68H... > Unless I missed it, what they should have done was include the status change
> in the "Semiconductor Update" email they send out periodically.
Yup! That's exactly my feelings, too. Or, count 2 who missed it.
> Mike
tonyp@tony...
(You need to be a member of hc11 -- send a blank email to hc11-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
From: "Michael Huslig" <mhuslig@mhus...>
To: <m68HC11@m68H... > Unless I missed it, what they should have done was include the status change
> in the "Semiconductor Update" email they send out periodically.
Yup! That's exactly my feelings, too. Or, count 2 who missed it.
> Mike
tonyp@tony...
(You need to be a member of hc11 -- send a blank email to hc11-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
RE: What's the true status? - Kerry Berland - May 9 18:24:00 2005
Tony and Mike--
I agree with your comments, they have put the warnings in some places but
not others....
Best regards,
Kerry Berland
kerry@kerr...
Silicon Engines
2101 Oxford Road
847-803-6860
Fax 847-803-6870
Des Plaines, IL 60018 USA > -----Original Message-----
> From: m68HC11@m68H... [mailto:m68HC11@m68H...] On Behalf
> Of Tony Papadimitriou
> Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 7:21 AM
> To: m68HC11@m68H...
> Subject: Re: [m68HC11] What's the true status?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Huslig" <mhuslig@mhus...>
> To: <m68HC11@m68H... > > Unless I missed it, what they should have done was include the status
> change
> > in the "Semiconductor Update" email they send out periodically.
>
> Yup! That's exactly my feelings, too. Or, count 2 who missed it.
>
> > Mike
>
> tonyp@tony... >
> Yahoo! Groups Links
(You need to be a member of hc11 -- send a blank email to hc11-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
I agree with your comments, they have put the warnings in some places but
not others....
Best regards,
Kerry Berland
kerry@kerr...
Silicon Engines
2101 Oxford Road
847-803-6860
Fax 847-803-6870
Des Plaines, IL 60018 USA > -----Original Message-----
> From: m68HC11@m68H... [mailto:m68HC11@m68H...] On Behalf
> Of Tony Papadimitriou
> Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 7:21 AM
> To: m68HC11@m68H...
> Subject: Re: [m68HC11] What's the true status?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Huslig" <mhuslig@mhus...>
> To: <m68HC11@m68H... > > Unless I missed it, what they should have done was include the status
> change
> > in the "Semiconductor Update" email they send out periodically.
>
> Yup! That's exactly my feelings, too. Or, count 2 who missed it.
>
> > Mike
>
> tonyp@tony... >
> Yahoo! Groups Links
(You need to be a member of hc11 -- send a blank email to hc11-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
RE: What's the true status? - Kerry Berland - May 10 14:48:00 2005
Here's a possibly interesting metric.
Number of messages on the 68HC11 list, 4/1/05 to date, 93.
Number of messages on the 68HC12 list, 4/1/05 to date, 530.
Over a 5-to-1 ratio.
These numbers are probably not exact because a few messages may have been
deleted.
Best regards,
Kerry Berland
kerry@kerr...
Silicon Engines
2101 Oxford Road
847-803-6860
Fax 847-803-6870
Des Plaines, IL 60018 USA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
______________________________
controlSUITE™ software. Comprehensive. Intuitive. Optimized.
Real-world software for real-time control. Details Here!
(You need to be a member of hc11 -- send a blank email to hc11-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Number of messages on the 68HC11 list, 4/1/05 to date, 93.
Number of messages on the 68HC12 list, 4/1/05 to date, 530.
Over a 5-to-1 ratio.
These numbers are probably not exact because a few messages may have been
deleted.
Best regards,
Kerry Berland
kerry@kerr...
Silicon Engines
2101 Oxford Road
847-803-6860
Fax 847-803-6870
Des Plaines, IL 60018 USA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
______________________________
controlSUITE™ software. Comprehensive. Intuitive. Optimized.
Real-world software for real-time control. Details Here!
(You need to be a member of hc11 -- send a blank email to hc11-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
RE: What's the true status? - Redd, Emmett R - May 10 14:51:00 2005
And many of those here were asking, "What's the true status?"
Emmett Redd Ph.D. mailto:EmmettRedd@Emme...
Associate Professor (417)836-5221
Department of Physics, Astronomy, and Materials Science
Southwest Missouri State University Fax (417)836-6226
901 SOUTH NATIONAL Dept (417)836-5131
SPRINGFIELD, MO 65804 USA
> -----Original Message-----
> From: m68HC11@m68H...
> [mailto:m68HC11@m68H...] On Behalf Of Kerry Berland
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 1:48 PM
> To: m68HC11@m68H...
> Subject: RE: [m68HC11] What's the true status?
>
> Here's a possibly interesting metric. >
> Number of messages on the 68HC11 list, 4/1/05 to date, 93.
>
> Number of messages on the 68HC12 list, 4/1/05 to date, 530. >
> Over a 5-to-1 ratio. >
> These numbers are probably not exact because a few messages
> may have been
> deleted. >
> Best regards,
>
> Kerry Berland
> kerry@kerr...
> Silicon Engines
> 2101 Oxford Road
> 847-803-6860
> Fax 847-803-6870
> Des Plaines, IL 60018 USA
(You need to be a member of hc11 -- send a blank email to hc11-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Emmett Redd Ph.D. mailto:EmmettRedd@Emme...
Associate Professor (417)836-5221
Department of Physics, Astronomy, and Materials Science
Southwest Missouri State University Fax (417)836-6226
901 SOUTH NATIONAL Dept (417)836-5131
SPRINGFIELD, MO 65804 USA
> -----Original Message-----
> From: m68HC11@m68H...
> [mailto:m68HC11@m68H...] On Behalf Of Kerry Berland
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 1:48 PM
> To: m68HC11@m68H...
> Subject: RE: [m68HC11] What's the true status?
>
> Here's a possibly interesting metric. >
> Number of messages on the 68HC11 list, 4/1/05 to date, 93.
>
> Number of messages on the 68HC12 list, 4/1/05 to date, 530. >
> Over a 5-to-1 ratio. >
> These numbers are probably not exact because a few messages
> may have been
> deleted. >
> Best regards,
>
> Kerry Berland
> kerry@kerr...
> Silicon Engines
> 2101 Oxford Road
> 847-803-6860
> Fax 847-803-6870
> Des Plaines, IL 60018 USA
(You need to be a member of hc11 -- send a blank email to hc11-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )