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Discussion Groups | LPC2000 | The best way to solder an ARM processor

Discussion group dedicated to the Philips LPC2000 family of ARM MCUs

The best way to solder an ARM processor - roccogalati - Dec 4 13:39:46 2010

Hi to all!

I have to connect the ARM processor's pins to my circuit in order to interface it with UART and some sensors.

If needed, the ARM datasheet is: http://docs-europe.origin.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0db0/0900766b80db0f69.pdf

It is possible to buy a socket where I can plug my ARM processor or I have to solder it directly in the circuit?

I've never soldering a smd device, so I'd like to receive some advices.
I've already bought the fluxant agent and some very thin tips.

I'd like to realize a solution which can let me unplug the ARM in the future in order to use it in some other circuit, if possible.

Thanks a lot for your advices! :)



Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - Leon Heller - Dec 4 13:49:18 2010

On 04/12/2010 18:39, roccogalati wrote:
> Hi to all!
>
> I have to connect the ARM processor's pins to my circuit in order to interface it with UART and some sensors.
>
> If needed, the ARM datasheet is: http://docs-europe.origin.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0db0/0900766b80db0f69.pdf
>
> It is possible to buy a socket where I can plug my ARM processor or I have to solder it directly in the circuit?
>
> I've never soldering a smd device, so I'd like to receive some advices.
> I've already bought the fluxant agent and some very thin tips.
>
> I'd like to realize a solution which can let me unplug the ARM in the future in order to use it in some other circuit, if possible.

Sockets are made, but they are *very* expensive.

I solder a pair of opposite corners and then drag-solder each row of
leads using a Metcal system with a mini-hoof cartridge, with plenty of flux.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
G1HSM


Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - noltstein - Dec 4 14:42:04 2010

--- In l..., Leon Heller wrote:
>

> Sockets are made, but they are *very* expensive.
>
> I solder a pair of opposite corners and then drag-solder each row of
> leads using a Metcal system with a mini-hoof cartridge, with plenty of flux.
>
> Leon

Yes, exactly this... I routinely do 100+ pin 0.5mm parts this way. As Leon said, *flux is your friend*. Be sure to clean well afterward, as well.

Also as Leon said, make sure to secure a few points (2-4 of the corners), and REALLY take the time to get the pins aligned on the pads. Don't get sloppy, don't rush, line things up very well the first time & you'll be glad you did.

There are tons of videos on the internet (especially YouTube) on this... here's just one of many: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQXhny3R7lk#tXs

Good luck & have fun.

-Dan

P.S. It helps if you can practice on some old boards/parts first. Also practice on larger pitch parts first, before trying small (0.5mm) pitch. Also you'll want a good magnifying glass / loupe (10x) to inspect your work.



Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - Donald H - Dec 4 15:06:55 2010

This is one of those times where buy is better then build.

It is a good feeling to know that you can build a circuit and see it work.

But with 100-pin tqfp parts, (and no experience) how many times may you screw it up before you know everything is working.

By the sounds of your needs, a pre-built board that is known working is better.

Prototyping has changed, but getting a application running is your goal, not showing off your soldering.

After you get your application working, then look at getting a board built.

hamilton

--- In l..., "roccogalati" wrote:
>
> Hi to all!
>
> I have to connect the ARM processor's pins to my circuit in order to interface it with UART and some sensors.
>
> If needed, the ARM datasheet is: http://docs-europe.origin.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0db0/0900766b80db0f69.pdf
>
> It is possible to buy a socket where I can plug my ARM processor or I have to solder it directly in the circuit?
>
> I've never soldering a smd device, so I'd like to receive some advices.
> I've already bought the fluxant agent and some very thin tips.
>
> I'd like to realize a solution which can let me unplug the ARM in the future in order to use it in some other circuit, if possible.
>
> Thanks a lot for your advices! :)
>



Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - Donald H - Dec 4 15:15:07 2010

Check out this board a little more then $10 and it works out of the box:

http://www.st.com/internet/evalboard/product/250863.jsp

http://in.mouser.com/ProductDetail/STMicroelectronics/STM32VLDISCOVERY/?qs=Sq9754QpLBjqJpXVpJuUgA%3d%3d
--- In l..., "Donald H" wrote:
>
> This is one of those times where buy is better then build.
>
> It is a good feeling to know that you can build a circuit and see it work.
>
> But with 100-pin tqfp parts, (and no experience) how many times may you screw it up before you know everything is working.
>
> By the sounds of your needs, a pre-built board that is known working is better.
>
> Prototyping has changed, but getting a application running is your goal, not showing off your soldering.
>
> After you get your application working, then look at getting a board built.
>
> hamilton
>
> --- In l..., "roccogalati" wrote:
> >
> > Hi to all!
> >
> > I have to connect the ARM processor's pins to my circuit in order to interface it with UART and some sensors.
> >
> > If needed, the ARM datasheet is: http://docs-europe.origin.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0db0/0900766b80db0f69.pdf
> >
> > It is possible to buy a socket where I can plug my ARM processor or I have to solder it directly in the circuit?
> >
> > I've never soldering a smd device, so I'd like to receive some advices.
> > I've already bought the fluxant agent and some very thin tips.
> >
> > I'd like to realize a solution which can let me unplug the ARM in the future in order to use it in some other circuit, if possible.
> >
> > Thanks a lot for your advices! :)
>


_____________________________
 Free pdf download: An Engineer's Guide to the LPC2100 Series.


Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - rtstofer - Dec 4 15:18:12 2010

--- In l..., "roccogalati" wrote:
>
> Hi to all!
>
> I have to connect the ARM processor's pins to my circuit in order to interface it with UART and some sensors.
>
> If needed, the ARM datasheet is: http://docs-europe.origin.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0db0/0900766b80db0f69.pdf
>
> It is possible to buy a socket where I can plug my ARM processor or I have to solder it directly in the circuit?
>
> I've never soldering a smd device, so I'd like to receive some advices.
> I've already bought the fluxant agent and some very thin tips.
>
> I'd like to realize a solution which can let me unplug the ARM in the future in order to use it in some other circuit, if possible.
>
> Thanks a lot for your advices! :)
>
I don't think you are going to succeed with unplugging unless you first solder your device to a header like:

http://www.schmartboard.com/index.asp?page=products_qfp&idh

This is workable but is seldom optimal and all you save is the cost of the device.

I am beginning to prefer the hot plate approach to soldering SMDs slthough drag soldering certainly works. Just be sure to have plenty of SolderWick around to clean up the solder bridges:

http://www.hmcelectronics.com/cgi-bin/scripts/query.cgi?query=soder-wick&gclid=CPHik82y06UCFQYHbAodICT6mQ

I use 0.025" and 0.050"

Solder flux is NC-559-V2 for drag soldering and paste solder for hotplate soldering has the same part number (I don't know why!):

http://www.howardelectronics.com/navigate/amtech.html

There are some videos on the Howard Electronics site that are useful.

FWIW, I use the Yellow syringe needles for dispensing both flux and solder paste.

I prefer the hotplate method simply because parts 'jump' into alignment with the pads.

You can remove chips with a hot air gun and an appropriate tip. I wouldn't bother.

You can also use Chip Quik to remove chips:

http://www.chipquikinc.com/

It alters the solder composition such that it melts 200 deg F. and it stays molten for a longer period of time. See:

http://www.chipquikinc.com/newsletters/cq_new_june_2004.htm

Richard



Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - Rocco Galati - Dec 4 15:49:15 2010

Thanks for your advice, but I prefer to build a circuit and I can't
use a pre-build board.

I've bought a JTAG adapter (USB + COM) and I'd like to connect the ARM
pin's with the adapter pins out. Moreover, I'd like to connect some
sensors to my ARM and read their values so I have to connect also the
other pins and not just the UART interface ones.

It is not a problem for me to learn and improve my soldering skills; I
just want to be able to solder the ARM in the right way and with a
correct support or socket.
At the moment, I don't know how to build the socket or how to realize
the connection pads where to solder the ARM pins.

:-(

Il giorno 04/dic/10, alle ore 21:05, Donald H ha scritto:

> This is one of those times where buy is better then build.
>
> It is a good feeling to know that you can build a circuit and see it
> work.
>
> But with 100-pin tqfp parts, (and no experience) how many times may
> you screw it up before you know everything is working.
>
> By the sounds of your needs, a pre-built board that is known working
> is better.
>
> Prototyping has changed, but getting a application running is your
> goal, not showing off your soldering.
>
> After you get your application working, then look at getting a board
> built.
>
> hamilton
>
> --- In l..., "roccogalati" wrote:
> >
> > Hi to all!
> >
> > I have to connect the ARM processor's pins to my circuit in order
> to interface it with UART and some sensors.
> >
> > If needed, the ARM datasheet is: http://docs-europe.origin.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0db0/0900766b80db0f69.pdf
> >
> > It is possible to buy a socket where I can plug my ARM processor
> or I have to solder it directly in the circuit?
> >
> > I've never soldering a smd device, so I'd like to receive some
> advices.
> > I've already bought the fluxant agent and some very thin tips.
> >
> > I'd like to realize a solution which can let me unplug the ARM in
> the future in order to use it in some other circuit, if possible.
> >
> > Thanks a lot for your advices! :)
>

--

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Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - Rocco Galati - Dec 4 15:54:24 2010

For example,
do you think that this:
http://cgi.ebay.it/SMD-CONVERTER-ADAPTER-PCB-TQFP100-Convert-4X26-PIN-/270618989308?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f022612fc

can be useful for my goal?
Il giorno 04/dic/10, alle ore 21:14, Donald H ha scritto:

>
> Check out this board a little more then $10 and it works out of the
> box:
>
> http://www.st.com/internet/evalboard/product/250863.jsp
>
> http://in.mouser.com/ProductDetail/STMicroelectronics/STM32VLDISCOVERY/?qs=Sq9754QpLBjqJpXVpJuUgA%3d%3d
>
> --- In l..., "Donald H"
> wrote:
> >
> > This is one of those times where buy is better then build.
> >
> > It is a good feeling to know that you can build a circuit and see
> it work.
> >
> > But with 100-pin tqfp parts, (and no experience) how many times
> may you screw it up before you know everything is working.
> >
> > By the sounds of your needs, a pre-built board that is known
> working is better.
> >
> > Prototyping has changed, but getting a application running is your
> goal, not showing off your soldering.
> >
> > After you get your application working, then look at getting a
> board built.
> >
> > hamilton
> >
> > --- In l..., "roccogalati" wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi to all!
> > >
> > > I have to connect the ARM processor's pins to my circuit in
> order to interface it with UART and some sensors.
> > >
> > > If needed, the ARM datasheet is: http://docs-europe.origin.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0db0/0900766b80db0f69.pdf
> > >
> > > It is possible to buy a socket where I can plug my ARM processor
> or I have to solder it directly in the circuit?
> > >
> > > I've never soldering a smd device, so I'd like to receive some
> advices.
> > > I've already bought the fluxant agent and some very thin tips.
> > >
> > > I'd like to realize a solution which can let me unplug the ARM
> in the future in order to use it in some other circuit, if possible.
> > >
> > > Thanks a lot for your advices! :)
> > >
>

--

Caselle da 1GB, trasmetti allegati fino a 3GB e in piu' IMAP, POP3 e SMTP autenticato? GRATIS solo con Email.it http://www.email.it/f

Sponsor:

Prova subito Emailpaghe, e' in prova gratuita sino al 31 dicembre 2010 e in pochi clik fai paghe e stipendi per la tua azienda!

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Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - Rocco Galati - Dec 4 16:01:25 2010

This is is very similar to the first link you suggested me:

http://cgi.ebay.it/SMD-CONVERTER-ADAPTER-PCB-TQFP100-Convert-4X26-PIN-/270618989308?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f022612fc

I've seen the video on youtube which was linked on that page and I see
that it seems really easy to solder it.
The guy in the video use at first the fluxant and than the soldering.

Do you think there is a board like this which implements already a
JTAG adpter so I just have to solder the ARM on it and plug it via USB
to my pc?
In this way, I'll avoid to make some failure with the UART interface.
Il giorno 04/dic/10, alle ore 21:17, rtstofer ha scritto:

> --- In l..., "roccogalati" wrote:
> >
> > Hi to all!
> >
> > I have to connect the ARM processor's pins to my circuit in order
> to interface it with UART and some sensors.
> >
> > If needed, the ARM datasheet is: http://docs-europe.origin.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0db0/0900766b80db0f69.pdf
> >
> > It is possible to buy a socket where I can plug my ARM processor
> or I have to solder it directly in the circuit?
> >
> > I've never soldering a smd device, so I'd like to receive some
> advices.
> > I've already bought the fluxant agent and some very thin tips.
> >
> > I'd like to realize a solution which can let me unplug the ARM in
> the future in order to use it in some other circuit, if possible.
> >
> > Thanks a lot for your advices! :)
> > I don't think you are going to succeed with unplugging unless you
> first solder your device to a header like:
>
> http://www.schmartboard.com/index.asp?page=products_qfp&idh
>
> This is workable but is seldom optimal and all you save is the cost
> of the device.
>
> I am beginning to prefer the hot plate approach to soldering SMDs
> slthough drag soldering certainly works. Just be sure to have plenty
> of SolderWick around to clean up the solder bridges:
>
> http://www.hmcelectronics.com/cgi-bin/scripts/query.cgi?query=soder-wick&gclid=CPHik82y06UCFQYHbAodICT6mQ
>
> I use 0.025" and 0.050"
>
> Solder flux is NC-559-V2 for drag soldering and paste solder for
> hotplate soldering has the same part number (I don't know why!):
>
> http://www.howardelectronics.com/navigate/amtech.html
>
> There are some videos on the Howard Electronics site that are useful.
>
> FWIW, I use the Yellow syringe needles for dispensing both flux and
> solder paste.
>
> I prefer the hotplate method simply because parts 'jump' into
> alignment with the pads.
>
> You can remove chips with a hot air gun and an appropriate tip. I
> wouldn't bother.
>
> You can also use Chip Quik to remove chips:
>
> http://www.chipquikinc.com/
>
> It alters the solder composition such that it melts 200 deg F. and
> it stays molten for a longer period of time. See:
>
> http://www.chipquikinc.com/newsletters/cq_new_june_2004.htm
>
> Richard
>


Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - David Smead - Dec 4 16:03:36 2010

Here's some incentive -- I predict that your chances of getting your
hardware to work is ZERO.

DaveS

On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Rocco Galati wrote:

> Thanks for your advice, but I prefer to build a circuit and I can't use a
> pre-build board.
>
> I've bought a JTAG adapter (USB + COM) and I'd like to connect the ARM
> pin's with the adapter pins out. Moreover, I'd like to connect some sensors
> to my ARM and read their values so I have to connect also the other pins and
> not just the UART interface ones.
>
> It is not a problem for me to learn and improve my soldering skills; I just
> want to be able to solder the ARM in the right way and with a correct
> support or socket.
> At the moment, I don't know how to build the socket or how to realize the
> connection pads where to solder the ARM pins.
>
> :-(
>
> Il giorno 04/dic/10, alle ore 21:05, Donald H ha scritto:
>
> This is one of those times where buy is better then build.
>
> It is a good feeling to know that you can build a circuit and see it work.
>
> But with 100-pin tqfp parts, (and no experience) how many times may you
> screw it up before you know everything is working.
>
> By the sounds of your needs, a pre-built board that is known working is
> better.
>
> Prototyping has changed, but getting a application running is your goal,
> not showing off your soldering.
>
> After you get your application working, then look at getting a board built.
>
> hamilton
>
> --- In l... , "roccogalati"
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi to all!
> >
> > I have to connect the ARM processor's pins to my circuit in order to
> interface it with UART and some sensors.
> >
> > If needed, the ARM datasheet is:
> http://docs-europe.origin.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0db0/0900766b80db0f69.pdf
> >
> > It is possible to buy a socket where I can plug my ARM processor or I
> have to solder it directly in the circuit?
> >
> > I've never soldering a smd device, so I'd like to receive some advices.
> > I've already bought the fluxant agent and some very thin tips.
> >
> > I'd like to realize a solution which can let me unplug the ARM in the
> future in order to use it in some other circuit, if possible.
> >
> > Thanks a lot for your advices! :)
> > ----
> Caselle da 1GB, trasmetti allegati fino a 3GB e in piu' IMAP, POP3 e SMTP
> autenticato? GRATIS solo con Email.it Sponsor:
> Stampa le tue foto su tela e crea i tuoi quadri personalizzati. In
> promozione esclusiva da soli euro 15.90!
> Clicca qui
>


Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - Rocco Galati - Dec 4 16:08:42 2010

why? :(
Il giorno 04/dic/10, alle ore 22:03, David Smead ha scritto:

> Here's some incentive -- I predict that your chances of getting your
> hardware to work is ZERO.
> DaveS
>
> On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Rocco Galati
> wrote:
>
> Thanks for your advice, but I prefer to build a circuit and I can't
> use a pre-build board.
> I've bought a JTAG adapter (USB + COM) and I'd like to connect the
> ARM pin's with the adapter pins out. Moreover, I'd like to connect
> some sensors to my ARM and read their values so I have to connect
> also the other pins and not just the UART interface ones.
>
> It is not a problem for me to learn and improve my soldering skills;
> I just want to be able to solder the ARM in the right way and with a
> correct support or socket.
> At the moment, I don't know how to build the socket or how to
> realize the connection pads where to solder the ARM pins.
>
> :-(
>
> Il giorno 04/dic/10, alle ore 21:05, Donald H ha scritto:
>
>> This is one of those times where buy is better then build.
>>
>> It is a good feeling to know that you can build a circuit and see
>> it work.
>>
>> But with 100-pin tqfp parts, (and no experience) how many times may
>> you screw it up before you know everything is working.
>>
>> By the sounds of your needs, a pre-built board that is known
>> working is better.
>>
>> Prototyping has changed, but getting a application running is your
>> goal, not showing off your soldering.
>>
>> After you get your application working, then look at getting a
>> board built.
>>
>> hamilton
>>
>> --- In l..., "roccogalati" wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi to all!
>> >
>> > I have to connect the ARM processor's pins to my circuit in order
>> to interface it with UART and some sensors.
>> >
>> > If needed, the ARM datasheet is: http://docs-europe.origin.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0db0/0900766b80db0f69.pdf
>> >
>> > It is possible to buy a socket where I can plug my ARM processor
>> or I have to solder it directly in the circuit?
>> >
>> > I've never soldering a smd device, so I'd like to receive some
>> advices.
>> > I've already bought the fluxant agent and some very thin tips.
>> >
>> > I'd like to realize a solution which can let me unplug the ARM in
>> the future in order to use it in some other circuit, if possible.
>> >
>> > Thanks a lot for your advices! :)
>> >
>>
>> ----
> Caselle da 1GB, trasmetti allegati fino a 3GB e in piu' IMAP, POP3 e
> SMTP autenticato? GRATIS solo con Email.it
>
> Sponsor:
> Stampa le tue foto su tela e crea i tuoi quadri personalizzati. In
> promozione esclusiva da soli euro 15.90!
> Clicca qui
>

--

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Sponsor:

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Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - Leon Heller - Dec 4 17:03:49 2010

On 04/12/2010 20:54, Rocco Galati wrote:
> For example,
> do you think that this:
> http://cgi.ebay.it/SMD-CONVERTER-ADAPTER-PCB-TQFP100-Convert-4X26-PIN-/270618989308?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f022612fc
> can be useful for my goal?

Those adapters have the problem that you can't get decoupling capacitors
close to the chip, and the power distribution won't be very good.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
G1HSM


Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - Neil Johnson - Dec 4 17:18:17 2010

Hi,

Rocco Galati wrote:
> why? :(

Interesting discussion. If I may ask you a couple of questions:

- what are you really trying to do? I don't mean "read sensors", I
mean what is the application ?

- what is being sensed, where, how often, what happens to the data?

- where are you? Private hobbyist, school, college, university,
company.

Answers to the above would help the audience on this list provide
answers with the right context.

Thanks,
Neil
--
http://www.njohnson.co.uk


_____________________________
 Free pdf download: An Engineer's Guide to the LPC2100 Series.


Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - Rocco Galati - Dec 4 17:43:08 2010

Hello,

> - what are you really trying to do? I don't mean "read sensors", I
mean what is the application ?
>- what is being sensed, where, how often, what happens to the data?

I'd like to write an application which read values from some sensors
like temperature, humidity, motion detector and
displays it on a LCD display. I'd like to read values each seconds and
to update each time the values.
I need to send these values via bluetooth so I've bought a wt11 module
from Bluegiga and I need to connect it to the ARM, too.

So the main application is to read the values and to send them via
Bluetooth.

I'm doing this very well on Arduino duemilanove, but now I'd like to
switch to the ARM because I want to develop a system all by myself;
in this way i'll learn a lot of things.
I've bought two ARM devices and this is their datasheet:
http://docs-europe.origin.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0db0/0900766b80db0f69.pdf
and this is the photo of one of them:
http://lnx.mangaitalia.net/IMG_2313.jpg

>- where are you? Private hobbyist, school, college, university,
company.

I'm in Italy and I'm a mechatronic engineer but I have no skill on
these devices so I'd like to receive some advices from you.
I'm doing this as a personal project and I don't have to do this for
business or for a company.
I just have to improve my skills.
I hope you can help me and suggest me the best way to realize my
project.

Il giorno 04/dic/10, alle ore 23:16, Neil Johnson ha scritto:

> Hi,
>
> Rocco Galati wrote:
> > why? :(
>
> Interesting discussion. If I may ask you a couple of questions:
>
> - what are you really trying to do? I don't mean "read sensors", I
> mean what is the application ?
>
> - what is being sensed, where, how often, what happens to the data?
>
> - where are you? Private hobbyist, school, college, university,
> company.
>
> Answers to the above would help the audience on this list provide
> answers with the right context.
>
> Thanks,
> Neil
> --
> http://www.njohnson.co.uk
>

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Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - cfbsoftware1 - Dec 4 18:22:24 2010

--- In l..., "roccogalati" wrote:
>
> It is possible to buy a socket where I can plug my ARM processor or I have to solder it directly in the circuit?
>

You can get very simple boards that already have the ARM MCU soldered onto it and then plug that into your circuits. Something like:

http://www.embeddedartists.com/products/boards/lpc1343_qsb.php

> I've never soldering a smd device, so I'd like to receive some advices.
> I've already bought the fluxant agent and some very thin tips.
>

SparkFun has a number of Surface Mount Soldering tutorials:

http://www.sparkfun.com/tutorials

I wish you luck - I haven't been game to try it yet. Let us know how you get on.

Regards,
Chris

Chris Burrows
CFB Software
Astrobe v3.2
http://www.astrobe.com



Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - rtstofer - Dec 4 18:40:20 2010

Here are a couple of STM32F prototype boards:

http://www.sparkfun.com/search/results?term=stm32f&what=products

A couple of years ago I needed a system that would accept data over SPI from an FPGA. The system would then reformat the data substantially and send it to a networked HP LaserPrinter.

Not conceptually difficult but building the PCB would be more than I wanted to go through. I wanted the result, not the effort.

So, I built a 'motherboard' that handled the power supplies and interconnects. I just soldered in two 'daughterboards' like these:

http://www.sparkfun.com/products/263
http://www.sparkfun.com/products/200

I did almost NO board design, just a few interconnects, and then soldered the purchased boards in place. Simple!

The difficulties in creating a one-off board are many. I would, at least, start with a proven electrical design like those on the STM32F boards above. The schematics are available.

I would probably BUY one of the boards whether I used it or not just to see how they handled the physical layout of bypass capacitors, the crystal(s) and power supply. These things can jump up and bite you! It just isn't that simple to design a board.

Besides, most hobbyists are limited to two sided boards if for no other reason than cost. It isn't easy to get all the power and ground paths routed and still have room for signals.

The suggestion earler that you have 0 chance of success may be a little harsh but it is VERY difficult to have the first version work. Or the second... Or the third... It is far better to use prototype boards and get a system working before trying to design a board.

Richard



Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - Norman Felder - Dec 4 19:31:29 2010

Hi Rocco,

Thanks for putting the project into context. I think I understand what you're
up to now. If you don't mind, I have few more quick questions:

First, is one of the skills you're trying to pick up the ability to design a
circuit board? If so, do you have a particular CAD package already that you
want to use to capture the schematic and lay out the circuit board?

In general terms, how much money are you prepared to spend on this exercise? Is
a few hundred euros a major outlay or a minor expense?

Best regards,
Norman

________________________________
From: Rocco Galati
To: l...
Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 3:42:38 PM
Subject: Re: [lpc2000] Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor

Hello,

> - what are you really trying to do? I don't mean "read sensors", I mean what is
>the application ?
>- what is being sensed, where, how often, what happens to the data?

I'd like to write an application which read values from some sensors like
temperature, humidity, motion detector and
displays it on a LCD display. I'd like to read values each seconds and to update
each time the values.
I need to send these values via bluetooth so I've bought a wt11 module from
Bluegiga and I need to connect it to the ARM, too.

So the main application is to read the values and to send them via Bluetooth.

I'm doing this very well on Arduino duemilanove, but now I'd like to switch to
the ARM because I want to develop a system all by myself; in this way i'll
learn a lot of things.
I've bought two ARM devices and this is their datasheet:
http://docs-europe.origin.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0db0/0900766b80db0f69.pdf

and this is the photo of one of them:
http://lnx.mangaitalia.net/IMG_2313.jpg

>- where are you? Private hobbyist, school, college, university, company.
I'm in Italy and I'm a mechatronic engineer but I have no skill on these devices
so I'd like to receive some advices from you.
I'm doing this as a personal project and I don't have to do this for business or
for a company.
I just have to improve my skills.
I hope you can help me and suggest me the best way to realize my project.
Il giorno 04/dic/10, alle ore 23:16, Neil Johnson ha scritto:

Hi,
>
>Rocco Galati wrote:
>> why? :(
>
>Interesting discussion. If I may ask you a couple of questions:
>
>- what are you really trying to do? I don't mean "read sensors", I
>mean what is the application ?
>
>- what is being sensed, where, how often, what happens to the data?
>
>- where are you? Private hobbyist, school, college, university,
>company.
>
>Answers to the above would help the audience on this list provide
>answers with the right context.
>
>Thanks,
>Neil
>--
>http://www.njohnson.co.uk

----
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Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - "Felipe de Andrade Neves L." - Dec 4 19:34:21 2010

Rocco,

It is very easy to solder, use a lot of flux and a good iron, for
desoldering you will need a hot air blower.
I've solded all this SMD board with the mentioned material only.
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/80t50BujNde_Qvx-iCWeRUT896nRqSOBm3Lop2ZwKHo?feat=directlink

Watch some videos on youtube about SMD soldering, its not hard at all,
unlike BGAs.

2010/12/4 rtstofer

> Here are a couple of STM32F prototype boards:
>
> http://www.sparkfun.com/search/results?term=stm32f&what=products
>
> A couple of years ago I needed a system that would accept data over SPI
> from an FPGA. The system would then reformat the data substantially and send
> it to a networked HP LaserPrinter.
>
> Not conceptually difficult but building the PCB would be more than I wanted
> to go through. I wanted the result, not the effort.
>
> So, I built a 'motherboard' that handled the power supplies and
> interconnects. I just soldered in two 'daughterboards' like these:
>
> http://www.sparkfun.com/products/263
> http://www.sparkfun.com/products/200
>
> I did almost NO board design, just a few interconnects, and then soldered
> the purchased boards in place. Simple!
>
> The difficulties in creating a one-off board are many. I would, at least,
> start with a proven electrical design like those on the STM32F boards above.
> The schematics are available.
>
> I would probably BUY one of the boards whether I used it or not just to see
> how they handled the physical layout of bypass capacitors, the crystal(s)
> and power supply. These things can jump up and bite you! It just isn't that
> simple to design a board.
>
> Besides, most hobbyists are limited to two sided boards if for no other
> reason than cost. It isn't easy to get all the power and ground paths routed
> and still have room for signals.
>
> The suggestion earler that you have 0 chance of success may be a little
> harsh but it is VERY difficult to have the first version work. Or the
> second... Or the third... It is far better to use prototype boards and get a
> system working before trying to design a board.
>
> Richard
>
>
>


Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - Donald H - Dec 4 20:35:57 2010

--- In l..., Rocco Galati wrote:
>
> why? :(

A little birdie told us:

"I've never soldering a smd device,"

Please do your self a favor and just get some hardware.

All you postings are about your application.

And when you do not have hardware to run, what will happen to your application ?

But, if you heart is set on building your own hardware, please get a photo site and let us see how you are doing.

Please show us the working application with "sensors" and "lcd" display running.

don

PS: Clock starts NOW !!

> Il giorno 04/dic/10, alle ore 22:03, David Smead ha scritto:
>
> > Here's some incentive -- I predict that your chances of getting your
> > hardware to work is ZERO.
> >
> >
> > DaveS
> >
> > On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Rocco Galati
> > wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for your advice, but I prefer to build a circuit and I can't
> > use a pre-build board.
> >
> >
> > I've bought a JTAG adapter (USB + COM) and I'd like to connect the
> > ARM pin's with the adapter pins out. Moreover, I'd like to connect
> > some sensors to my ARM and read their values so I have to connect
> > also the other pins and not just the UART interface ones.
> >
> > It is not a problem for me to learn and improve my soldering skills;
> > I just want to be able to solder the ARM in the right way and with a
> > correct support or socket.
> > At the moment, I don't know how to build the socket or how to
> > realize the connection pads where to solder the ARM pins.
> >
> > :-(
> >
> >
> >
> > Il giorno 04/dic/10, alle ore 21:05, Donald H ha scritto:
> >
> >> This is one of those times where buy is better then build.
> >>
> >> It is a good feeling to know that you can build a circuit and see
> >> it work.
> >>
> >> But with 100-pin tqfp parts, (and no experience) how many times may
> >> you screw it up before you know everything is working.
> >>
> >> By the sounds of your needs, a pre-built board that is known
> >> working is better.
> >>
> >> Prototyping has changed, but getting a application running is your
> >> goal, not showing off your soldering.
> >>
> >> After you get your application working, then look at getting a
> >> board built.
> >>
> >> hamilton
> >>
> >> --- In l..., "roccogalati" wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Hi to all!
> >> >
> >> > I have to connect the ARM processor's pins to my circuit in order
> >> to interface it with UART and some sensors.
> >> >
> >> > If needed, the ARM datasheet is: http://docs-europe.origin.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0db0/0900766b80db0f69.pdf
> >> >
> >> > It is possible to buy a socket where I can plug my ARM processor
> >> or I have to solder it directly in the circuit?
> >> >
> >> > I've never soldering a smd device, so I'd like to receive some
> >> advices.
> >> > I've already bought the fluxant agent and some very thin tips.
> >> >
> >> > I'd like to realize a solution which can let me unplug the ARM in
> >> the future in order to use it in some other circuit, if possible.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks a lot for your advices! :)
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----
> > Caselle da 1GB, trasmetti allegati fino a 3GB e in piu' IMAP, POP3 e
> > SMTP autenticato? GRATIS solo con Email.it
> >
> > Sponsor:
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
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>



Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - Donald H - Dec 4 20:46:10 2010

Thanks for putting this project into context.

Rocco said " I got a free sample of the chip and I do not have the money to do it right. So help me do it at all and I will blame all of you if it does not work."

Yes, I understand Rocco now.

Good luck

don

PS: The clock is still running.

--- In l..., Norman Felder wrote:
>
> Hi Rocco,
>
> Thanks for putting the project into context. I think I understand what you're
> up to now. If you don't mind, I have few more quick questions:
>
> First, is one of the skills you're trying to pick up the ability to design a
> circuit board? If so, do you have a particular CAD package already that you
> want to use to capture the schematic and lay out the circuit board?
>
> In general terms, how much money are you prepared to spend on this exercise? Is
> a few hundred euros a major outlay or a minor expense?
>
> Best regards,
> Norman
>
> ________________________________
> From: Rocco Galati
> To: l...
> Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 3:42:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [lpc2000] Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor
>
>
> Hello,
>
> > - what are you really trying to do? I don't mean "read sensors", I mean what is
> >the application ?
> >- what is being sensed, where, how often, what happens to the data?
>
> I'd like to write an application which read values from some sensors like
> temperature, humidity, motion detector and
> displays it on a LCD display. I'd like to read values each seconds and to update
> each time the values.
> I need to send these values via bluetooth so I've bought a wt11 module from
> Bluegiga and I need to connect it to the ARM, too.
>
> So the main application is to read the values and to send them via Bluetooth.
>
> I'm doing this very well on Arduino duemilanove, but now I'd like to switch to
> the ARM because I want to develop a system all by myself; in this way i'll
> learn a lot of things.
> I've bought two ARM devices and this is their datasheet:
> http://docs-europe.origin.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0db0/0900766b80db0f69.pdf
>
> and this is the photo of one of them:
> http://lnx.mangaitalia.net/IMG_2313.jpg
>
> >- where are you? Private hobbyist, school, college, university, company.
> I'm in Italy and I'm a mechatronic engineer but I have no skill on these devices
> so I'd like to receive some advices from you.
> I'm doing this as a personal project and I don't have to do this for business or
> for a company.
> I just have to improve my skills.
> I hope you can help me and suggest me the best way to realize my project.
> Il giorno 04/dic/10, alle ore 23:16, Neil Johnson ha scritto:
>
> Hi,
> >
> >Rocco Galati wrote:
> >> why? :(
> >
> >Interesting discussion. If I may ask you a couple of questions:
> >
> >- what are you really trying to do? I don't mean "read sensors", I
> >mean what is the application ?
> >
> >- what is being sensed, where, how often, what happens to the data?
> >
> >- where are you? Private hobbyist, school, college, university,
> >company.
> >
> >Answers to the above would help the audience on this list provide
> >answers with the right context.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Neil
> >--
> >http://www.njohnson.co.uk
> >
> >
> ----
> Caselle da 1GB, trasmetti allegati fino a 3GB e in piu' IMAP, POP3 e SMTP
> autenticato? GRATIS solo con Email.it
>
> Sponsor:
> Emailpaghe: le paghe in 3 click, veloce ed efficiente puoi averlo in prova
> gratuita fino al 31 dicembre 2010. Cosa aspetti provalo!
> Clicca qui
>



Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - Norman Felder - Dec 5 0:04:05 2010

Hi Rocco,

My questions were not an attempt to embarrass you. It seems that right now you
have a chip, but no board to solder it to. I was trying to determine if your
goal was to learn through the process of designing your own circuit board. If
so, the amount of money you're prepared to spend will have a lot to do with the
choices of tools you use and the options you have for getting the boards
fabricated. I was asking about your budget so that I could give you advice more
appropriate to your situation.

Designing this board would be a challenging project if you've never done
something like it before. Richard correctly identified a number of potential
pitfalls. He's also correct that you generally need multi-layer board designs
to deal with chips like this. That said, your particular hardware is
straight-forward. Since it's not going to be a commercial product, the
specifications are relaxed. With care and planning I think it could be
successfully implemented as a two-layer board. Your odds of success would go up
dramatically if you had someone experienced at this type of design who was
willing to coach you as you progress with the design. I'm prepared to do that.
This offer does not have a commercial motive. Neither I nor my company sell
engineering services or any product related to designing or building circuit
boards.

I wouldn't want anyone else in the group to feel they were unfairly blamed for
the failure of your project. I, however, am willing to take that risk. You're
welcome to contact me directly if you prefer not to continue the discussion in
public. The processor you've picked isn't NXP, so, it's perhaps stretching
things slightly to be posting in this group in any event. (Leon, feel free to
give us some direction on that point.) You could always pick another
processor...

Best regards,
Norman

________________________________
From: Donald H
To: l...
Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 6:46:03 PM
Subject: [lpc2000] Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor

Thanks for putting this project into context.

Rocco said " I got a free sample of the chip and I do not have the money to do
it right. So help me do it at all and I will blame all of you if it does not
work."

Yes, I understand Rocco now.

Good luck

don

PS: The clock is still running.

--- In l..., Norman Felder wrote:
>
> Hi Rocco,
>
> Thanks for putting the project into context. I think I understand what you're

> up to now. If you don't mind, I have few more quick questions:
>
> First, is one of the skills you're trying to pick up the ability to design a
> circuit board? If so, do you have a particular CAD package already that you
> want to use to capture the schematic and lay out the circuit board?
>
> In general terms, how much money are you prepared to spend on this exercise?
>Is
>
> a few hundred euros a major outlay or a minor expense?
>
> Best regards,
> Norman
>
> ________________________________
> From: Rocco Galati
> To: l...
> Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 3:42:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [lpc2000] Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor
> Hello,
>
> > - what are you really trying to do? I don't mean "read sensors", I mean what
>is
>
> >the application ?
> >- what is being sensed, where, how often, what happens to the data?
>
> I'd like to write an application which read values from some sensors like
> temperature, humidity, motion detector and
> displays it on a LCD display. I'd like to read values each seconds and to
>update
>
> each time the values.
> I need to send these values via bluetooth so I've bought a wt11 module from
> Bluegiga and I need to connect it to the ARM, too.
>
> So the main application is to read the values and to send them via Bluetooth.
>
> I'm doing this very well on Arduino duemilanove, but now I'd like to switch to

> the ARM because I want to develop a system all by myself; in this way i'll
> learn a lot of things.
> I've bought two ARM devices and this is their datasheet:
>http://docs-europe.origin.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0db0/0900766b80db0f69.pdf
>f
>
> and this is the photo of one of them:
> http://lnx.mangaitalia.net/IMG_2313.jpg
>
> >- where are you? Private hobbyist, school, college, university, company.
> I'm in Italy and I'm a mechatronic engineer but I have no skill on these
>devices
>
> so I'd like to receive some advices from you.
> I'm doing this as a personal project and I don't have to do this for business
>or
>
> for a company.
> I just have to improve my skills.
> I hope you can help me and suggest me the best way to realize my project.
> Il giorno 04/dic/10, alle ore 23:16, Neil Johnson ha scritto:
>
> Hi,
> >
> >Rocco Galati wrote:
> >> why? :(
> >
> >Interesting discussion. If I may ask you a couple of questions:
> >
> >- what are you really trying to do? I don't mean "read sensors", I
> >mean what is the application ?
> >
> >- what is being sensed, where, how often, what happens to the data?
> >
> >- where are you? Private hobbyist, school, college, university,
> >company.
> >
> >Answers to the above would help the audience on this list provide
> >answers with the right context.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Neil
> >--
> >http://www.njohnson.co.uk
> >
> >
> ----
> Caselle da 1GB, trasmetti allegati fino a 3GB e in piu' IMAP, POP3 e SMTP
> autenticato? GRATIS solo con Email.it
>
> Sponsor:
> Emailpaghe: le paghe in 3 click, veloce ed efficiente puoi averlo in prova
> gratuita fino al 31 dicembre 2010. Cosa aspetti provalo!
> Clicca qui
>


Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - Rocco Galati - Dec 5 7:14:09 2010

Hello,

thanks for your interest.
Yep, one of the abilities which I want to aquire is to be able to
design a circuit board.
At the moment, I have some skills to do it on the paper, but I never
used a CAD package and in these days I'm trying to find one which i
can use for schematics and the circuit board.
I used OrCAD but may be there is some other better CAD. I'll look for
it.

Few hundred euros are not a problem, but I'd like to realize the best
solution at low cost.
During the last months, I've bought three arduino duemilanove, a lot
of sensors (RGB color, LCD display, temperature, humidity, PIR, etc..)
and two ARMS which I'd like to use in order to substitute the Arduino
circuit.
I've also bought a JTAG Adapter in order to be able to program the ARMs.

Thanks again for your help.
Rocco.
Il giorno 05/dic/10, alle ore 01:31, Norman Felder ha scritto:

>
> Hi Rocco,
>
> Thanks for putting the project into context. I think I understand
> what you're up to now. If you don't mind, I have few more quick
> questions:
>
> First, is one of the skills you're trying to pick up the ability to
> design a circuit board? If so, do you have a particular CAD package
> already that you want to use to capture the schematic and lay out
> the circuit board?
>
> In general terms, how much money are you prepared to spend on this
> exercise? Is a few hundred euros a major outlay or a minor expense?
>
> Best regards,
> Norman
>
> From: Rocco Galati
> To: l...
> Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 3:42:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [lpc2000] Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor
> Hello,
> > - what are you really trying to do? I don't mean "read sensors", I
> mean what is the application ?
> >- what is being sensed, where, how often, what happens to the data?
>
> I'd like to write an application which read values from some sensors
> like temperature, humidity, motion detector and
> displays it on a LCD display. I'd like to read values each seconds
> and to update each time the values.
> I need to send these values via bluetooth so I've bought a wt11
> module from Bluegiga and I need to connect it to the ARM, too.
>
> So the main application is to read the values and to send them via
> Bluetooth.
>
> I'm doing this very well on Arduino duemilanove, but now I'd like to
> switch to the ARM because I want to develop a system all by myself;
> in this way i'll learn a lot of things.
> I've bought two ARM devices and this is their datasheet:
> http://docs-europe.origin.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0db0/0900766b80db0f69.pdf
> and this is the photo of one of them:
> http://lnx.mangaitalia.net/IMG_2313.jpg
>
> >- where are you? Private hobbyist, school, college, university,
> company.
>
> I'm in Italy and I'm a mechatronic engineer but I have no skill on
> these devices so I'd like to receive some advices from you.
> I'm doing this as a personal project and I don't have to do this for
> business or for a company.
> I just have to improve my skills.
> I hope you can help me and suggest me the best way to realize my
> project.
>
> Il giorno 04/dic/10, alle ore 23:16, Neil Johnson ha scritto:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Rocco Galati wrote:
>> > why? :(
>>
>> Interesting discussion. If I may ask you a couple of questions:
>>
>> - what are you really trying to do? I don't mean "read sensors", I
>> mean what is the application ?
>>
>> - what is being sensed, where, how often, what happens to the data?
>>
>> - where are you? Private hobbyist, school, college, university,
>> company.
>>
>> Answers to the above would help the audience on this list provide
>> answers with the right context.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Neil
>> --
>> http://www.njohnson.co.uk
> ----
> Caselle da 1GB, trasmetti allegati fino a 3GB e in piu' IMAP, POP3 e
> SMTP autenticato? GRATIS solo con Email.it
>
> Sponsor:
> Emailpaghe: le paghe in 3 click, veloce ed efficiente puoi averlo in
> prova gratuita fino al 31 dicembre 2010. Cosa aspetti provalo!
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>

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Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - gsntone - Dec 5 7:23:09 2010

Re: [Donald] The best way to solder an ARM processor - Rocco Galati - Dec 5 7:29:03 2010

Hello Donald,

I never said something like that.
I have the money and I don't care how much I'll spend in the future to
realize the project and to learn how to do it.
I never said I will blame you if it won't work, I'm just asking for
your help because you have skills in this area.
I think this is a free and open group so if you aren't interested in
my questions, why you answer to me?

I don't know why you are attacking me and you are so presumptuous and
arrogant with me.
However, this is a photo about my actual project on arduino:
http://lnx.mangaitalia.net/arduino.JPG

In the lower left corner there is the Zilog PIR detector, on the right
there is the Displaytech LCD 2x16 and on the upper right corner there
are the temperature and humidity sensor.
I use the potenziometer in order to adjust the LCD.
Actually I use the LCD in order to display the information about the
status sensors and if it detect a motion.
In this photo there is the Bluegiga wt11 module because it wasn't
connected at the moment.

I've bought 6 wt11 modules and two wt41 modules from Bluegiga in order
to test them.

The ARM processors are not free, I've bought them from RS at 9 euros
each single piece.

Thanks.
Rocco.
Il giorno 05/dic/10, alle ore 02:46, Donald H ha scritto:

> Thanks for putting this project into context.
>
> Rocco said " I got a free sample of the chip and I do not have the
> money to do it right. So help me do it at all and I will blame all
> of you if it does not work."
>
> Yes, I understand Rocco now.
>
> Good luck
>
> don
>
> PS: The clock is still running.
>
> --- In l..., Norman Felder
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Rocco,
> >
> > Thanks for putting the project into context. I think I understand
> what you're
> > up to now. If you don't mind, I have few more quick questions:
> >
> > First, is one of the skills you're trying to pick up the ability
> to design a
> > circuit board? If so, do you have a particular CAD package already
> that you
> > want to use to capture the schematic and lay out the circuit board?
> >
> > In general terms, how much money are you prepared to spend on this
> exercise? Is
> > a few hundred euros a major outlay or a minor expense?
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Norman
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Rocco Galati
> > To: l...
> > Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 3:42:38 PM
> > Subject: Re: [lpc2000] Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > > - what are you really trying to do? I don't mean "read sensors",
> I mean what is
> > >the application ?
> > >- what is being sensed, where, how often, what happens to the data?
> >
> > I'd like to write an application which read values from some
> sensors like
> > temperature, humidity, motion detector and
> > displays it on a LCD display. I'd like to read values each seconds
> and to update
> > each time the values.
> > I need to send these values via bluetooth so I've bought a wt11
> module from
> > Bluegiga and I need to connect it to the ARM, too.
> >
> > So the main application is to read the values and to send them via
> Bluetooth.
> >
> > I'm doing this very well on Arduino duemilanove, but now I'd like
> to switch to
> > the ARM because I want to develop a system all by myself; in this
> way i'll
> > learn a lot of things.
> > I've bought two ARM devices and this is their datasheet:
> > http://docs-europe.origin.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0db0/0900766b80db0f69.pdf
> >
> > and this is the photo of one of them:
> > http://lnx.mangaitalia.net/IMG_2313.jpg
> >
> > >- where are you? Private hobbyist, school, college, university,
> company.
> >
> >
> > I'm in Italy and I'm a mechatronic engineer but I have no skill on
> these devices
> > so I'd like to receive some advices from you.
> > I'm doing this as a personal project and I don't have to do this
> for business or
> > for a company.
> > I just have to improve my skills.
> > I hope you can help me and suggest me the best way to realize my
> project.
> >
> >
> > Il giorno 04/dic/10, alle ore 23:16, Neil Johnson ha scritto:
> >
> > Hi,
> > >
> > >Rocco Galati wrote:
> > >> why? :(
> > >
> > >Interesting discussion. If I may ask you a couple of questions:
> > >
> > >- what are you really trying to do? I don't mean "read sensors", I
> > >mean what is the application ?
> > >
> > >- what is being sensed, where, how often, what happens to the data?
> > >
> > >- where are you? Private hobbyist, school, college, university,
> > >company.
> > >
> > >Answers to the above would help the audience on this list provide
> > >answers with the right context.
> > >
> > >Thanks,
> > >Neil
> > >--
> > >http://www.njohnson.co.uk
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----
> > Caselle da 1GB, trasmetti allegati fino a 3GB e in piu' IMAP, POP3
> e SMTP
> > autenticato? GRATIS solo con Email.it
> >
> > Sponsor:
> > Emailpaghe: le paghe in 3 click, veloce ed efficiente puoi averlo
> in prova
> > gratuita fino al 31 dicembre 2010. Cosa aspetti provalo!
> > Clicca qui
>


Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - Rocco Galati - Dec 5 7:30:53 2010

Thanks,
I really appreciate your help! I really need to ask someone a lot of
questions because I never do something like this.
Unfortunately, we don't study this kind of thing at unviersity, but I
want to learn this anyway.

Thanks a lot.
Rocco.
Il giorno 05/dic/10, alle ore 05:57, Norman Felder ha scritto:

>
> Hi Rocco,
>
> My questions were not an attempt to embarrass you. It seems that
> right now you have a chip, but no board to solder it to. I was
> trying to determine if your goal was to learn through the process of
> designing your own circuit board. If so, the amount of money you're
> prepared to spend will have a lot to do with the choices of tools
> you use and the options you have for getting the boards fabricated.
> I was asking about your budget so that I could give you advice more
> appropriate to your situation.
>
> Designing this board would be a challenging project if you've never
> done something like it before. Richard correctly identified a
> number of potential pitfalls. He's also correct that you generally
> need multi-layer board designs to deal with chips like this. That
> said, your particular hardware is straight-forward. Since it's not
> going to be a commercial product, the specifications are relaxed.
> With care and planning I think it could be successfully implemented
> as a two-layer board. Your odds of success would go up dramatically
> if you had someone experienced at this type of design who was
> willing to coach you as you progress with the design. I'm prepared
> to do that. This offer does not have a commercial motive. Neither
> I nor my company sell engineering services or any product related to
> designing or building circuit boards.
>
> I wouldn't want anyone else in the group to feel they were unfairly
> blamed for the failure of your project. I, however, am willing to
> take that risk. You're welcome to contact me directly if you prefer
> not to continue the discussion in public. The processor you've
> picked isn't NXP, so, it's perhaps stretching things slightly to be
> posting in this group in any event. (Leon, feel free to give us
> some direction on that point.) You could always pick another
> processor...
>
> Best regards,
> Norman
>
> From: Donald H
> To: l...
> Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 6:46:03 PM
> Subject: [lpc2000] Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor
> Thanks for putting this project into context.
>
> Rocco said " I got a free sample of the chip and I do not have the
> money to do it right. So help me do it at all and I will blame all
> of you if it does not work."
>
> Yes, I understand Rocco now.
>
> Good luck
>
> don
>
> PS: The clock is still running.
>
> --- In l..., Norman Felder
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Rocco,
> >
> > Thanks for putting the project into context. I think I understand
> what you're
> > up to now. If you don't mind, I have few more quick questions:
> >
> > First, is one of the skills you're trying to pick up the ability
> to design a
> > circuit board? If so, do you have a particular CAD package already
> that you
> > want to use to capture the schematic and lay out the circuit board?
> >
> > In general terms, how much money are you prepared to spend on this
> exercise? Is
> > a few hundred euros a major outlay or a minor expense?
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Norman
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Rocco Galati
> > To: l...
> > Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 3:42:38 PM
> > Subject: Re: [lpc2000] Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > > - what are you really trying to do? I don't mean "read sensors",
> I mean what is
> > >the application ?
> > >- what is being sensed, where, how often, what happens to the data?
> >
> > I'd like to write an application which read values from some
> sensors like
> > temperature, humidity, motion detector and
> > displays it on a LCD display. I'd like to read values each seconds
> and to update
> > each time the values.
> > I need to send these values via bluetooth so I've bought a wt11
> module from
> > Bluegiga and I need to connect it to the ARM, too.
> >
> > So the main application is to read the values and to send them via
> Bluetooth.
> >
> > I'm doing this very well on Arduino duemilanove, but now I'd like
> to switch to
> > the ARM because I want to develop a system all by myself; in this
> way i'll
> > learn a lot of things.
> > I've bought two ARM devices and this is their datasheet:
> > http://docs-europe.origin.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0db0/0900766b80db0f69.pdf
> >
> > and this is the photo of one of them:
> > http://lnx.mangaitalia.net/IMG_2313.jpg
> >
> > >- where are you? Private hobbyist, school, college, university,
> company.
> >
> >
> > I'm in Italy and I'm a mechatronic engineer but I have no skill on
> these devices
> > so I'd like to receive some advices from you.
> > I'm doing this as a personal project and I don't have to do this
> for business or
> > for a company.
> > I just have to improve my skills.
> > I hope you can help me and suggest me the best way to realize my
> project.
> >
> >
> > Il giorno 04/dic/10, alle ore 23:16, Neil Johnson ha scritto:
> >
> > Hi,
> > >
> > >Rocco Galati wrote:
> > >> why? :(
> > >
> > >Interesting discussion. If I may ask you a couple of questions:
> > >
> > >- what are you really trying to do? I don't mean "read sensors", I
> > >mean what is the application ?
> > >
> > >- what is being sensed, where, how often, what happens to the data?
> > >
> > >- where are you? Private hobbyist, school, college, university,
> > >company.
> > >
> > >Answers to the above would help the audience on this list provide
> > >answers with the right context.
> > >
> > >Thanks,
> > >Neil
> > >--
> > >http://www.njohnson.co.uk
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----
> > Caselle da 1GB, trasmetti allegati fino a 3GB e in piu' IMAP, POP3
> e SMTP
> > autenticato? GRATIS solo con Email.it
> >
> > Sponsor:
> > Emailpaghe: le paghe in 3 click, veloce ed efficiente puoi averlo
> in prova
> > gratuita fino al 31 dicembre 2010. Cosa aspetti provalo!
> > Clicca qui
>

--

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Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - Rocco Galati - Dec 5 7:32:26 2010

Thanks a lot!!

I used EAGLE last year for a little project, do you think it's good
for what I have to do?
Il giorno 05/dic/10, alle ore 13:22, gsntone ha scritto:

> Free CAD:
>
> http://www.cadsoftusa.com/freeware.htm.en
>

--

Caselle da 1GB, trasmetti allegati fino a 3GB e in piu' IMAP, POP3 e SMTP autenticato? GRATIS solo con Email.it http://www.email.it/f

Sponsor:

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Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - gsntone - Dec 5 7:42:03 2010

Why not?
I'm using EAGLE since a lot of years to draw simple 2 layer boards (e.g. with LPC1768).
To add sensors, LCD, USB and power supply isn't too difficult.
No rocket science, just work.



Re: [Donald] The best way to solder an ARM processor - Donald H - Dec 5 7:51:40 2010

Hello Rocco,

This list gets lots of students posting for miracles.

Your original post sounded like of those students.

You have a large project in front of you and I understand how a project like this can fail, (been there, done that).

I you would have given enough information from the beginning the kind of advice would have been different.

Good luck with your project.

don
--- In l..., Rocco Galati wrote:
>
> Hello Donald,
>
> I never said something like that.
> I have the money and I don't care how much I'll spend in the future to
> realize the project and to learn how to do it.
> I never said I will blame you if it won't work, I'm just asking for
> your help because you have skills in this area.
> I think this is a free and open group so if you aren't interested in
> my questions, why you answer to me?
>
> I don't know why you are attacking me and you are so presumptuous and
> arrogant with me.
> However, this is a photo about my actual project on arduino:
> http://lnx.mangaitalia.net/arduino.JPG
>
> In the lower left corner there is the Zilog PIR detector, on the right
> there is the Displaytech LCD 2x16 and on the upper right corner there
> are the temperature and humidity sensor.
> I use the potenziometer in order to adjust the LCD.
> Actually I use the LCD in order to display the information about the
> status sensors and if it detect a motion.
> In this photo there is the Bluegiga wt11 module because it wasn't
> connected at the moment.
>
> I've bought 6 wt11 modules and two wt41 modules from Bluegiga in order
> to test them.
>
> The ARM processors are not free, I've bought them from RS at 9 euros
> each single piece.
>
> Thanks.
> Rocco.
> Il giorno 05/dic/10, alle ore 02:46, Donald H ha scritto:
>
> > Thanks for putting this project into context.
> >
> > Rocco said " I got a free sample of the chip and I do not have the
> > money to do it right. So help me do it at all and I will blame all
> > of you if it does not work."
> >
> > Yes, I understand Rocco now.
> >
> > Good luck
> >
> > don
> >
> > PS: The clock is still running.
> >
> > --- In l..., Norman Felder
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Rocco,
> > >
> > > Thanks for putting the project into context. I think I understand
> > what you're
> > > up to now. If you don't mind, I have few more quick questions:
> > >
> > > First, is one of the skills you're trying to pick up the ability
> > to design a
> > > circuit board? If so, do you have a particular CAD package already
> > that you
> > > want to use to capture the schematic and lay out the circuit board?
> > >
> > > In general terms, how much money are you prepared to spend on this
> > exercise? Is
> > > a few hundred euros a major outlay or a minor expense?
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Norman
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Rocco Galati
> > > To: l...
> > > Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 3:42:38 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [lpc2000] Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > > - what are you really trying to do? I don't mean "read sensors",
> > I mean what is
> > > >the application ?
> > > >- what is being sensed, where, how often, what happens to the data?
> > >
> > > I'd like to write an application which read values from some
> > sensors like
> > > temperature, humidity, motion detector and
> > > displays it on a LCD display. I'd like to read values each seconds
> > and to update
> > > each time the values.
> > > I need to send these values via bluetooth so I've bought a wt11
> > module from
> > > Bluegiga and I need to connect it to the ARM, too.
> > >
> > > So the main application is to read the values and to send them via
> > Bluetooth.
> > >
> > > I'm doing this very well on Arduino duemilanove, but now I'd like
> > to switch to
> > > the ARM because I want to develop a system all by myself; in this
> > way i'll
> > > learn a lot of things.
> > > I've bought two ARM devices and this is their datasheet:
> > > http://docs-europe.origin.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0db0/0900766b80db0f69.pdf
> > >
> > > and this is the photo of one of them:
> > > http://lnx.mangaitalia.net/IMG_2313.jpg
> > >
> > > >- where are you? Private hobbyist, school, college, university,
> > company.
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm in Italy and I'm a mechatronic engineer but I have no skill on
> > these devices
> > > so I'd like to receive some advices from you.
> > > I'm doing this as a personal project and I don't have to do this
> > for business or
> > > for a company.
> > > I just have to improve my skills.
> > > I hope you can help me and suggest me the best way to realize my
> > project.
> > >
> > >
> > > Il giorno 04/dic/10, alle ore 23:16, Neil Johnson ha scritto:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > >Rocco Galati wrote:
> > > >> why? :(
> > > >
> > > >Interesting discussion. If I may ask you a couple of questions:
> > > >
> > > >- what are you really trying to do? I don't mean "read sensors", I
> > > >mean what is the application ?
> > > >
> > > >- what is being sensed, where, how often, what happens to the data?
> > > >
> > > >- where are you? Private hobbyist, school, college, university,
> > > >company.
> > > >
> > > >Answers to the above would help the audience on this list provide
> > > >answers with the right context.
> > > >
> > > >Thanks,
> > > >Neil
> > > >--
> > > >http://www.njohnson.co.uk
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----
> > > Caselle da 1GB, trasmetti allegati fino a 3GB e in piu' IMAP, POP3
> > e SMTP
> > > autenticato? GRATIS solo con Email.it
> > >
> > > Sponsor:
> > > Emailpaghe: le paghe in 3 click, veloce ed efficiente puoi averlo
> > in prova
> > > gratuita fino al 31 dicembre 2010. Cosa aspetti provalo!
> > > Clicca qui
> > >
> >
> >
>



Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - Moses O McKnight - Dec 5 9:26:40 2010

I use Kicad and like it pretty well. Free open source with no board
size limitations, and easy to use.

http://kicad.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

Moses

On Sun, 2010-12-05 at 13:32 +0100, Rocco Galati wrote:
> Thanks a lot!!
> I used EAGLE last year for a little project, do you think it's good
> for what I have to do?
>
> Il giorno 05/dic/10, alle ore 13:22, gsntone ha scritto:
>
> >
> >
> > Free CAD:
> >
> > http://www.cadsoftusa.com/freeware.htm.en
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----
> Caselle da 1GB, trasmetti allegati fino a 3GB e in piu' IMAP, POP3 e
> SMTP autenticato? GRATIS solo con Email.it
>
> Sponsor:
> Vuoi farti o vuoi fare un regalo originale? Visita MisterCupido.com e
> personalizza con foto: quadri, tazze, puzzle, cuscini, magliette,
> peluche, borse, portachiavi...
> Clicca qui



Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - Wouter van Ooijen - Dec 5 10:25:35 2010

> Those adapters have the problem that you can't get decoupling capacitors
> close to

For TQFP64 I have a PCB that allows relatively close placement of
decoupling C's: http://www.voti.nl/shop/p/PCB-09.html But even this
might be too far away.

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: www.voti.nl/hvu



Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - rtstofer - Dec 5 10:48:20 2010

--- In l..., Moses O McKnight wrote:
>
> I use Kicad and like it pretty well. Free open source with no board
> size limitations, and easy to use.
>
> http://kicad.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
>
> Moses

I use ExpressPCB to build my miniboards so I must use their software. It is not nearly as capable as Eagle and some of the others.

Try to find a CAD package that has the pad layouts for your chip. I have had to design my own pad layouts for ExpressPCB and it is tedious. In the end, it works.

Make sure your CAD package outputs Gerber files if you intend to have the board built by a manufacturer. ExpressPCB does NOT produce Gerber files so I am locked in to one manufacturer.

Why do I stay locked in? I have made several attempts to get started with Eagle and I just can't get up the learning curve. It is the absolute least intuitive software on the planet. Those who are willing to spend the time learn to love it. I have a short attention span and just can't quite make the climb.

As I said earlier, use the electrical design from one of the Olimex boards sold at Sparkfun. This will tell you where you need pull-up and pull-down resistors. Copy the design exactly and you will find it easier to get the board working. You would be amazed at how many new boards are missing a pull-up or pull-down resistor and the designers come here to find out why their new gadget doesn't work.

The 64 pin chip you are using shouldn't be too difficult to deal with. But you need to deal with the power/ground traces (planes) and the decoupling capacitors first. This is very important. Everything else is just running signals around to the various headers. I would put the power/ground on the bottom and leave the signals on the top layer. But that is just a starting point. I often have the ground on the bottom and the power on the top.

I am assuming you will use a commercial board house because, otherwise, you will not be able to get plated through holes (PTH). Yes, you can put short pieces of resistor leads (cut offs) through aligned holes but that is a pain.

I would still approach the project with a manufactured prototype board even if I intended to build a board later.

One thing I have done with premanufactured header boards is to design a matching board that stacks on top (or bottom). One of my eZ80 projects used a Zilog header board for the CPU and memory. I added a matching stackable board for the serial->USB ports and the compact flash interface. I now have a 50 MHz Z80 machine running the CP/M 2.0 operating system and Microsoft's M80 Fortran Compiler (stuff from '76 or so). It is about the size of a pack of cigarettes.

You could do the same thing. Use a manufactured header board with all the built-in features like JTAG and then just add another stacked board to connect the sensors. MUCH easier to build. And much more flexible. You can reuse the processor board for other projects or you can redesign just the add-on board to add more gadgets.

This group tends to focus on software. There are other Yahoo groups more appropriate for board design.

Richard



Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - Howard Hansen - Dec 5 11:10:10 2010

The book "The Circuit Designers Companion" by Tim Williams has a 28
page chapter on printed circuit boards. It covers Board Types. Design
Riles, Board Assembly: surface mount and through hole, Surface
Protection and Sourcing Board and Artwork. This chapter will be very
helpful to a novice who wants to design a printed circuit board.

Howard
On 12/5/2010 6:14 AM, Rocco Galati wrote:
>
> Hello,
> thanks for your interest.
> Yep, one of the abilities which I want to aquire is to be able to
> design a circuit board.
> At the moment, I have some skills to do it on the paper, but I never
> used a CAD package and in these days I'm trying to find one which i
> can use for schematics and the circuit board.
> I used OrCAD but may be there is some other better CAD. I'll look for it.
>
> Few hundred euros are not a problem, but I'd like to realize the best
> solution at low cost.
> During the last months, I've bought three arduino duemilanove, a lot
> of sensors (RGB color, LCD display, temperature, humidity, PIR, etc..)
> and two ARMS which I'd like to use in order to substitute the Arduino
> circuit.
> I've also bought a JTAG Adapter in order to be able to program the ARMs.
>
> Thanks again for your help.
> Rocco.
> Il giorno 05/dic/10, alle ore 01:31, Norman Felder ha scritto:
>
>>
>> Hi Rocco,
>>
>> Thanks for putting the project into context. I think I understand
>> what you're up to now. If you don't mind, I have few more quick
>> questions:
>>
>> First, is one of the skills you're trying to pick up the ability to
>> design a circuit board? If so, do you have a particular CAD package
>> already that you want to use to capture the schematic and lay out the
>> circuit board?
>>
>> In general terms, how much money are you prepared to spend on this
>> exercise? Is a few hundred euros a major outlay or a minor expense?
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Norman
>>
>>
>> *From:*Rocco Galati >
>> *To:*l...
>> *Sent:*Sat, December 4, 2010 3:42:38 PM
>> *Subject:*Re: [lpc2000] Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor
>>
>> Hello,
>> > - what are you really trying to do? I don't mean "read sensors", I
>> mean what is the application ?
>> >- what is being sensed, where, how often, what happens to the data?
>>
>> I'd like to write an application which read values from some sensors
>> like temperature, humidity, motion detector and
>> displays it on a LCD display. I'd like to read values each seconds
>> and to update each time the values.
>> I need to send these values via bluetooth so I've bought a wt11
>> module from Bluegiga and I need to connect it to the ARM, too.
>>
>> So the main application is to read the values and to send them via
>> Bluetooth.
>>
>> I'm doing this very well on Arduino duemilanove, but now I'd like to
>> switch to the ARM because I want to develop a system all by myself;
>> in this way i'll learn a lot of things.
>> I've bought two ARM devices and this is their datasheet:
>> http://docs-europe.origin.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0db0/0900766b80db0f69.pdf
>> and this is the photo of one of them:
>> http://lnx.mangaitalia.net/IMG_2313.jpg
>>
>> >- where are you? Private hobbyist, school, college, university, company.
>>
>> I'm in Italy and I'm a mechatronic engineer but I have no skill on
>> these devices so I'd like to receive some advices from you.
>> I'm doing this as a personal project and I don't have to do this for
>> business or for a company.
>> I just have to improve my skills.
>> I hope you can help me and suggest me the best way to realize my project.
>>
>> Il giorno 04/dic/10, alle ore 23:16, Neil Johnson ha scritto:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Rocco Galati wrote:
>>> > why? :(
>>>
>>> Interesting discussion. If I may ask you a couple of questions:
>>>
>>> - what are you really trying to do? I don't mean "read sensors", I
>>> mean what is the application ?
>>>
>>> - what is being sensed, where, how often, what happens to the data?
>>>
>>> - where are you? Private hobbyist, school, college, university,
>>> company.
>>>
>>> Answers to the above would help the audience on this list provide
>>> answers with the right context.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Neil
>>> --
>>> http://www.njohnson.co.uk
>>>
>> ----
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>>
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>>
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Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - Norman Felder - Dec 5 12:37:28 2010

Hi Rocco,

Eagle is an excellent choice for this project. It's one of two packages that I
use on a day-to-day basis. Eagle would be my first choice for you out of the
packages I've used over the years. Also, if you choose to use Eagle, I can give
you very specific advice if you run into problems editing schematics or boards,
producing Gerber files, etc. If you pick another package I can tell you if
something is wrong, but I might not be able to tell you how to use the tool to
fix it.

Best regards,
Norman

________________________________
From: Rocco Galati
To: l...
Sent: Sun, December 5, 2010 5:32:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Spam][lpc2000] Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor

Thanks a lot!!

I used EAGLE last year for a little project, do you think it's good for what I
have to do?

Il giorno 05/dic/10, alle ore 13:22, gsntone ha scritto:
>
>Free CAD:
>
>http://www.cadsoftusa.com/freeware.htm.en

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Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - Neil Johnson - Dec 5 13:10:33 2010

Hi,

Rocco Galati wrote:
> I used EAGLE last year for a little project, do you think it's good
> for what I have to do?

I should think so:

http://www.milton.arachsys.com/nj71/img/Siel/Opera6/cpuboard.jpg

Double-sided PTH board, just within the limitations of the free
version of Eagle. Oh, and its an LPC2148.

Cheers,
Neil
--
http://www.njohnson.co.uk



Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - Olivier Gautherot - Dec 5 20:44:14 2010

Rocco,

I back Moses' preference. I've used both Eagle and Kicad and also prefer
Kicad. Not only because of price or license but also ease of use. I
currently use it for relatively complex projects (300+ components).

The one reason to prefer Eagle over Kicad would be the router (it is really
fast) but for the rest, I've had too many problems (library compatibility
issues once you reach 4.10 or 5.10, need to design symbols with physical
footprints when you implement new components, etc.) Kicad, on the other
hand, is flexible but lacks a fast autorouter (there is an integrated one
that can help on low complexity boards and the integration for an on-line
Java app). Despite that, I like the option of designing quickly a symbol to
prepare the schematics and only then spend time on the footprints and the
layout.

Another suggestion would be DesignSpark ( http://www.designspark.com/pcb ).
I have not used it extensively but the small test cases I ran were pretty
fast. It generates automatically the BOM with RS Components references - it
is free but then the authors are allowed to add some self advertisement :-)
Cheers
Olivier

On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 11:26 AM, Moses O McKnight wrote:

> I use Kicad and like it pretty well. Free open source with no board
> size limitations, and easy to use.
>
> http://kicad.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
>
> Moses
>

Olivier Gautherot
o...@gautherot.net
http://www.linkedin.com/in/ogautherot

Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - Leon Heller - Dec 5 21:12:53 2010

On 06/12/2010 01:43, Olivier Gautherot wrote:
> Another suggestion would be DesignSpark ( http://www.designspark.com/pcb
> ). I have not used it extensively but the small test cases I ran were
> pretty fast. It generates automatically the BOM with RS Components
> references - it is free but then the authors are allowed to add some
> self advertisement :-)

It's actually a stripped-down version of Number One Systems' Easy-PC.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
G1HSM


Re: The best way to solder an ARM processor - Rocco Galati - Dec 6 7:03:58 2010

Thanks for all your replys, guys.

During next days, I'll try to choose what kind of CAD software do
adopt, ma be, i'll choose Eagle because, at least, I've already used it.
I'll let you know about my next step project :)

I'll post some photos or videos about the hardware progresses.

Thanks again to all!

Rocco

Il giorno 06/dic/10, alle ore 03:12, Leon Heller ha scritto:

> On 06/12/2010 01:43, Olivier Gautherot wrote:
> >
> >
> > Another suggestion would be DesignSpark ( http://www.designspark.com/pcb
> > ). I have not used it extensively but the small test cases I ran
> were
> > pretty fast. It generates automatically the BOM with RS Components
> > references - it is free but then the authors are allowed to add some
> > self advertisement :-)
>
> It's actually a stripped-down version of Number One Systems' Easy-PC.
>
> Leon
> --
> Leon Heller
> G1HSM

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