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Discussion Groups | MSP430 | have a look at this link and comment please

The purpose of this group is to foster exchange of information on the Texas Instruments MSP430 family of microcontrollers and related tools. Everyone welcome, all levels of familiarity/expertise.

have a look at this link and comment please - Vasant P - Feb 28 0:42:20 2008

Hi,
I came across this link today, found it interesting and thought of sharing with all you people.

I am sure some of you might have already seen this article, but nevertheless, seems like a good topic for all us to discuss!

http://www.embedded.com/columns/guest/206801769?_requestid65133

Regards
Vasant K P
________________________________
DISCLAIMER
The information transmitted is intended exclusively for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the material from your system.

Re: have a look at this link and comment please - merapcb - Feb 28 2:17:14 2008

Thanks, indeed this is interesting!

--- In m..., Vasant P wrote:
> Hi,
> I came across this link today, found it interesting and thought of
sharing with all you people.
>
> I am sure some of you might have already seen this article, but
nevertheless, seems like a good topic for all us to discuss!
>
> http://www.embedded.com/columns/guest/206801769?_requestid65133
>
> Regards
> Vasant K P
> ________________________________
> DISCLAIMER
> The information transmitted is intended exclusively for the person
or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or
privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or
other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this
information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient
is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient or have received
this mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete
the material from your system.
>
>


Re: have a look at this link and comment please - One Stone - Feb 28 9:26:51 2008

Why do you think this is a good topic to discuss? It is a typical
demonstration of the old saying, "there are lies, damned lies, and
statistics". I like the MSP430, but ONLY because it meets my needs and
so far cannot be beaten. Although this article seems to come down fairly
heavily in favour of the ST (which is a great part for those with a
power budget) it is actually bullshit on many fronts. take the tale below:_
Okay, a critical figure might be current /MHz, in which case the MSP
comes in at 2mA for the same 8mA 8MHz quoted for the ST part, but the
biggest killer I see is the 2.8uA sleep mode current. I don't have that
as a mean budget in many applications. Now take the compiler. No mention
that there is a free limited compiler for the MSP, or that the free
compilers for the ST is, as far as I can tell also limited, or that
there are a bevy of MUCh cheaper compilers available than the IAR one.
The most expensive of the bunch. I can also buy an IAR compiler for ARM
at similar prices.

Finally the chip prices he quotes are garbage. Where does his $10 in
million quantities for the MSP come from? Ti aren't the greatest with
high volume discounts but i can tell you for sure they are better than this.

Don't get me wrong. I'm ticked off that Ti are comparatively expensive
bang/buck, and as pissed off that they are years behind their original
path forecasts. If I could find a better low current device of any
brand, that met all of my needs I would switch instantly, I go for the
specs NOT the manufacturer, and compilers are of little interest to me,
so until a genuine competitor comes along I will stay with the MSP, for
all its faults.

Cheers

Al

Vasant P wrote:

>Hi,
>I came across this link today, found it interesting and thought of sharing with all you people.
>
>I am sure some of you might have already seen this article, but nevertheless, seems like a good topic for all us to discuss!
>
>http://www.embedded.com/columns/guest/206801769?_requestid65133
>
>Regards
>Vasant K P
>________________________________
>DISCLAIMER
>The information transmitted is intended exclusively for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the material from your system.
>
>


Re: have a look at this link and comment please - Ian Okey - Feb 28 9:45:23 2008

On 28/02/2008, One Stone wrote:
> Why do you think this is a good topic to discuss? It is a typical
> demonstration of the old saying, "there are lies, damned lies, and
> statistics". I like the MSP430, but ONLY because it meets my needs and
> so far cannot be beaten. Although this article seems to come down fairly
> heavily in favour of the ST (which is a great part for those with a
> power budget) it is actually bullshit on many fronts. take the tale below:_
> Okay, a critical figure might be current /MHz, in which case the MSP
> comes in at 2mA for the same 8mA 8MHz quoted for the ST part, but the
> biggest killer I see is the 2.8uA sleep mode current. I don't have that
> as a mean budget in many applications. Now take the compiler. No mention
> that there is a free limited compiler for the MSP, or that the free
> compilers for the ST is, as far as I can tell also limited, or that
> there are a bevy of MUCh cheaper compilers available than the IAR one.
> The most expensive of the bunch. I can also buy an IAR compiler for ARM
> at similar prices.
>
> Finally the chip prices he quotes are garbage. Where does his $10 in
> million quantities for the MSP come from? Ti aren't the greatest with
> high volume discounts but i can tell you for sure they are better than this.
>
> Don't get me wrong. I'm ticked off that Ti are comparatively expensive
> bang/buck, and as pissed off that they are years behind their original
> path forecasts. If I could find a better low current device of any
> brand, that met all of my needs I would switch instantly, I go for the
> specs NOT the manufacturer, and compilers are of little interest to me,
> so until a genuine competitor comes along I will stay with the MSP, for
> all its faults.
>
> Cheers
>
> Al
>

Al,

Your comments mirror my original thoughts when I read the original
article when it first came out. It looked very much to me that the
author had decided that the ST part was going to win and so was trying
to work his arguments to produce that result.

If you are going to include the cost of a compiler then you must also
include the development cost of the software. This will, if you use
any realistic hourly rate for the development time, completely dwarf
the cost of the compiler for anything other than the most trivial of
software development projects.

Being charitable to the ST part a 5 times increase in the sleep
current and 20 times increase in the active current does not put the
processor in the same ballpark.

Choosing the 2617 rather than the 2417 part added, according to the TI
website prices, $1.90 to the chip price. I hardly think that using
Digikey, or any other vendor that sets its prices in a quarterly
catalogue, can be relied on as an accurate source of pricing
information. Their 100 off price is $3.10 higher than the TI website
budgetary price. I would be very surprised if there was a $3 markup
on the quoted price for the ST part.

Ian

Re: have a look at this link and comment please - aee - Feb 28 12:22:27 2008

I could not help myself on checking some of that data and it is a shame that this kind of editor/publisher exists. At least he doesn't know what is he talking about. The MSP has 9 to 11 ADC inputs (not counting the temperature sensor), has a dual channel DAC, DMA and 0.1uA "all off" power down state.
He could just have a look in the AVNET web site to know the price for 1K ($9.2) instead of give credit to a salesman who may want to promote ST. In a serious buy anyone can have a much better price. Of course it does work both ways but he could, at least, do a bit more effort to gather correct figures.
Al is right: what matters is if the MCU is right for a given design and those extra ADC inputs did save the day in several designs.
-Augusto

De:m...

Para:m...

Cia:

Data:Fri, 29 Feb 2008 00:36:34 +1030

Assunto:Re: [msp430] have a look at this link and comment please

Why do you think this is a good topic to discuss? It is a typical
demonstration of the old saying, "there are lies, damned lies, and
statistics". I like the MSP430, but ONLY because it meets my needs and
so far cannot be beaten. Although this article seems to come down fairly
heavily in favour of the ST (which is a great part for those with a
power budget) it is actually bullshit on many fronts. take the tale below:_

Okay, a critical figure might be current /MHz, in which case the MSP
comes in at 2mA for the same 8mA 8MHz quoted for the ST part, but the
biggest killer I see is the 2.8uA sleep mode current. I don't have that
as a mean budget in many applications. Now take the compiler. No mention
that there is a free limited compiler for the MSP, or that the free
compilers for the ST is, as far as I can tell also limited, or that
there are a bevy of MUCh cheaper compilers available than the IAR one.
The most expensive of the bunch. I can also buy an IAR compiler for ARM
at similar prices.

Finally the chip prices he quotes are garbage. Where does his $10 in
million quantities for the MSP come from? Ti aren't the greatest with
high volume discounts but i can tell you for sure they are better than this.

Don't get me wrong. I'm ticked off that Ti are comparatively expensive
bang/buck, and as pissed off that they are years behind their original
path forecasts. If I could find a better low current device of any
brand, that met all of my needs I would switch instantly, I go for the
specs NOT the manufacturer, and compilers are of little interest to me,
so until a genuine competitor comes along I will stay with the MSP, for
all its faults.

Cheers

Al

Vasant P wrote:

>Hi,
>I came across this link today, found it interesting and thought of sharing with all you people.
>
>I am sure some of you might have already seen this article, but nevertheless, seems like a good topic for all us to discuss!
>
>http://www.embedded.com/columns/guest/206801769?_requestid=1065133
>
>Regards
>Vasant K P
>________________________________
>DISCLAIMER
>The information transmitted is intended exclusively for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the material from your system.
>
>
>
>


Re: have a look at this link and comment please - old_cow_yellow - Feb 28 12:43:21 2008

--- In m..., "aee" wrote:
>
> I could not help myself on checking some of that data and it is a
shame that this kind of editor/publisher exists. At least he doesn't
know what is he talking about. The MSP has 9 to 11 ADC inputs (not
counting the temperature sensor), has a dual channel DAC, DMA and
0.1uA "all off" power down state.
> He could just have a look in the AVNET web site to know the price
for 1K ($9.2) instead of give credit to a salesman who may want to
promote ST. In a serious buy anyone can have a much better price. Of
course it does work both ways but he could, at least, do a bit more
effort to gather correct figures.
> Al is right: what matters is if the MCU is right for a given design
and those extra ADC inputs did save the day in several designs.
> -Augusto
>
> De:m...
>
> Para:m...
>
> Cia:
>
> Data:Fri, 29 Feb 2008 00:36:34 +1030
>
> Assunto:Re: [msp430] have a look at this link and comment please
>
> Why do you think this is a good topic to discuss? It is a typical
> demonstration of the old saying, "there are lies, damned lies, and
> statistics". I like the MSP430, but ONLY because it meets my needs and
> so far cannot be beaten. Although this article seems to come down
fairly
> heavily in favour of the ST (which is a great part for those with a
> power budget) it is actually bullshit on many fronts. take the tale
below:_
>
> Okay, a critical figure might be current /MHz, in which case the MSP
> comes in at 2mA for the same 8mA 8MHz quoted for the ST part, but the
> biggest killer I see is the 2.8uA sleep mode current. I don't have that
> as a mean budget in many applications. Now take the compiler. No
mention
> that there is a free limited compiler for the MSP, or that the free
> compilers for the ST is, as far as I can tell also limited, or that
> there are a bevy of MUCh cheaper compilers available than the IAR one.
> The most expensive of the bunch. I can also buy an IAR compiler for ARM
> at similar prices.
>
> Finally the chip prices he quotes are garbage. Where does his $10 in
> million quantities for the MSP come from? Ti aren't the greatest with
> high volume discounts but i can tell you for sure they are better
than this.
>
> Don't get me wrong. I'm ticked off that Ti are comparatively expensive
> bang/buck, and as pissed off that they are years behind their original
> path forecasts. If I could find a better low current device of any
> brand, that met all of my needs I would switch instantly, I go for the
> specs NOT the manufacturer, and compilers are of little interest to me,
> so until a genuine competitor comes along I will stay with the MSP, for
> all its faults.
>
> Cheers
>
> Al
>
> Vasant P wrote:
>
> >Hi,
> >I came across this link today, found it interesting and thought of
sharing with all you people.
> >
> >I am sure some of you might have already seen this article, but
nevertheless, seems like a good topic for all us to discuss!
> >
> >http://www.embedded.com/columns/guest/206801769?_requestid=1065133
> >
> >Regards
> >Vasant K P
> >
> >
> >________________________________
> >DISCLAIMER
> >The information transmitted is intended exclusively for the person
or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or
privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or
other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this
information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient
is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient or have received
this mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete
the material from your system.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >


Re: have a look at this link and comment please - Aaron Greer - Feb 28 16:48:27 2008

I attended an Avnet seminar promoting the ST parts and I was impressed when they were comparing them to the older ARM7 parts. The new parts are definitely targeted more towards embedded, time and resource constrained designs (compared to ARM7). I never would have figured on comparing them to directly to MSPs though. The only argument that seems to make any sense is shorter active-mode duty cycle because of the higher CPU speed, but even then, the numbers indicate the MSP would still be lower power overall. My thought after the seminar was that if I needed a performance intensive MCU with fair low power (better than some ARM7 MCUs at least), I'd consider using STM32. I did get a cool STM32Circle demo module at least.

-Aaron

----- Original Message -----
From: "Vasant P"
To: m...
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 10:34:16 PM (GMT-0700) America/Denver
Subject: [msp430] have a look at this link and comment please

Hi,
I came across this link today, found it interesting and thought of sharing with all you people.

I am sure some of you might have already seen this article, but nevertheless, seems like a good topic for all us to discuss!

http://www.embedded.com/columns/guest/206801769?_requestid65133

Regards
Vasant K P

________________________________
DISCLAIMER
The information transmitted is intended exclusively for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the material from your system.

Re: have a look at this link and comment please - Vasant P - Feb 29 6:41:35 2008

Hi,
I am a trainer by profession and have done some development using MSP.
I also have the knowledge of ARM CORTEX design which has been specifically designed to address the embedded market.

The basic idea of me asking you guys to discuss this comparison between MSP and ST32 was to understand where does each of the controllers stand against each other.

I was waiting to know all you peoples prospective then just taking what the author of the article has to say. So going by the replies, I think I am getting the fare share of ideas I was looking for, which would help me in my training.

I always believed and knew that the choice of a controller is solely based on the project requirements and budget. Was just trying to see all you experienced peoples reaction when you are given an option for another powerful controller, which is not necessarily the best for the job.

Thanx for all the comments.

Cheers
vasant
________________________________
DISCLAIMER
The information transmitted is intended exclusively for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the material from your system.

_____________________________
 Free pdf download: Beginning Microcontrollers with the MSP430.