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Discussion Groups | Piclist | Re: Digest Number 381
A discussion group for the PICMicro microcontroller. Also called the Microchip PIC, this list is dedicated to the use and abuse of this fine, simple, microcontroller. Close to topic posts are welcome, ie. general electronics.
Re: Digest Number 381 - Tom Walker - Apr 24 7:11:00 2003
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Actually, you can purchase PicBasic Pro for the same $229 from www.glitchbuster.com. > Message: 8 > Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 17:56:40 -0000 > From: "larrwill202wl" <> > Subject: Re: Best PIC Compiler??? > > Thanks for all the replies. I'm thinking of going with the MBasic > compiler from Basic Micro. The MBasic Pro is less expensive than > PicBasic Pro and comes standard with an IDE. > The choice seems too obvious, any reason why Pic Basic would be a > better choice than MBasic? > > Thanks again |
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Real Men don't use BASIC! - John Beeckler - Apr 24 10:26:00 2003
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Listen guys... Why on EARTH would anybody pay a couple hundred dollars for a BASIC compiler?? Please do your self a favor and buy one of the good, low cost C compilers such as CCS PIC C, or the other ones out there other than hi-tech. Do a little research and don't kill the futur of your project by using BASIC. let's face it.... No REAL project is done in BASIC. -John PS, CCS game me their compiler and it KICKS ASS!!!! You can buy it for like 1 or 2 hundred bucks. __________________________________________________ |
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RE: Real Men don't use BASIC! - Wouter van Ooijen - Apr 24 10:35:00 2003
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> Real Men don't use BASIC! Real men certainly don't use C either, they invent their own programming language and write a compiler for it (not an interpreter, that's for sissies). Wouter van Ooijen (author of the Jal language & compiler.) Note that I do not qualify as a real man: I used an existing C compiler to write the Jal compiler :( -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products |
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Re: Real Men don't use BASIC! - rtstofer - Apr 24 10:56:00 2003
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You mean to say JAL can't compile itself? C is often used to write C compilers, Pascal has been used to build Pascal compilers (in fact this is particularly easy with recursive descent). Just kidding, I realize it is a targeting problem. The JAL output is for a PIC not a PC. Where on earth could that stack go on a PIC? I have started looking at JAL now that it has been hacked for Rick Farmer's PIC Loader. Some in the MiniSumo Mark III group will be taking up the language for their robot projects. I really expect JAL to become quite popular. It has power and no price - a particularly good combination. Thank you for creating the language and doing all the work to make it available. My only suggestion is that you and the Mark III guys get together and use a pragma for the code origin instead of a hack. It would be nice to have something of a standard JAL. Best wishes! --- In , "Wouter van Ooijen" <wouter@v...> wrote: > > Real Men don't use BASIC! > > Real men certainly don't use C either, they invent their own programming > language and write a compiler for it (not an interpreter, that's for > sissies). > > Wouter van Ooijen > > (author of the Jal language & compiler.) > Note that I do not qualify as a real man: I used an existing C compiler > to write the Jal compiler :( > > -- ------------------------------------------- > Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: www.voti.nl > consultancy, development, PICmicro products |
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RE: Re: Real Men don't use BASIC! - Wouter van Ooijen - Apr 24 11:02:00 2003
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The trouble is that I dropped Jal in the GPL domain because I don't have enough time to spend on it - so the group at Source Forge that is hacking can be seen as sorking on the standard version. But I still need a Jal for my own work, so occasionally I make an improvement - incidentally, the last one was a pragma to set the origin, but I did not release that yet (not enough time). And untill the SF group has a stable Jal such modifications will be to my own code, so for some time a split is unavoidable. Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products |
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Re: Real Men don't use BASIC! - Cliff Griffin - Apr 24 11:08:00 2003
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John, Rather than just blanket statements, why not list real features in that C that PicBasic Pro can't do? Why not list a couple common tasks, and let's write and compare code output. So far, the only code comparisons I've seen have been on compiler company web sites. I use PBP, and couldn't think of any reason to switch to C--and I have done considerably more C than basic when I started with PIC's. I'd love to see actual comparisons that supported your statements...You write it in C, and I'll write up in PBP and we'll see something that wasn't generated for a marketing focus Cliff ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Beeckler" <> To: <> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 8:26 AM Subject: [piclist] Real Men don't use BASIC! > Listen guys... > Why on EARTH would anybody pay a couple hundred > dollars for a BASIC compiler?? Please do your self a > favor and buy one of the good, low cost C compilers > such as CCS PIC C, or the other ones out there other > than hi-tech. Do a little research and don't kill the > futur of your project by using BASIC. let's face > it.... No REAL project is done in BASIC. > -John > PS, CCS game me their compiler and it KICKS ASS!!!! > You can buy it for like 1 or 2 hundred bucks. > > __________________________________________________ > to unsubscribe, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com and follow the instructions |
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Re: Real Men don't use BASIC! - Michael Puchol - Apr 24 11:45:00 2003
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Well, my own experience with token interpreter chips (BasicStamp, BasicX) and BASIC compilers for PIC devices has proven (to myself at least, your mileage may vary) that a lot of times, a particular project can be completed much faster with these tools than with complex, C-style compilers. As an example, I developed a complex circuit interfacing devices like ISD voice chips, GSM modems, accelerometers, etc. all with one single BasicX BX-24 - this chip has 32k for programs, around 400 bytes of RAM, serial port buffers up to 64 bytes in size, 8 ADCs, multitasking etc. etc. and it's programmed in a Visual Basic compatible language. It took me about a month to write the code, whereas I know of similar efforts that have taken a team of 6 programmers over 8 months to resolve, using C compilers. Maybe it's because they were crap at C, but IMHO it's easier to be crap at writing C than it is at writing BASIC. So, I don't believe in these "real men" statements, I believe in functionality, and picking the best tools for each job. Another project I'm involved in uses a custom-made Hitachi microprocessor, which is cost effective when you go over 5000 pieces, and these are programmed with (very expensive) C compilers. Just pick what's right for each occasion. Regards, Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Beeckler" <> To: <> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 5:26 PM Subject: [piclist] Real Men don't use BASIC! > Listen guys... > Why on EARTH would anybody pay a couple hundred > dollars for a BASIC compiler?? Please do your self a > favor and buy one of the good, low cost C compilers > such as CCS PIC C, or the other ones out there other > than hi-tech. Do a little research and don't kill the > futur of your project by using BASIC. let's face > it.... No REAL project is done in BASIC. > -John > PS, CCS game me their compiler and it KICKS ASS!!!! > You can buy it for like 1 or 2 hundred bucks. > > __________________________________________________ > to unsubscribe, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com and follow the instructions |
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Re: Real Men don't use BASIC! - Harold Hallikainen - Apr 24 21:20:00 2003
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I once heard that Bill Gates would take some project people had been working on for months and hack it out over the weekend in Basic. It SEEMS that a lot of Windoze applications are written in Visual Basic, based on the number of VB runtime errors I see. For PICs, I'm writing in assembly and C... Harold --- "Michael Puchol" <> wrote: Well, my own experience with token interpreter chips (BasicStamp, BasicX) and BASIC compilers for PIC devices has proven (to myself at least, your mileage may vary) that a lot of times, a particular project can be completed much faster with these tools than with complex, C-style compilers. As an example, I developed a complex circuit interfacing devices like ISD voice chips, GSM modems, accelerometers, etc. all with one single BasicX BX-24 - this chip has 32k for programs, around 400 bytes of RAM, serial port buffers up to 64 bytes in size, 8 ADCs, multitasking etc. etc. and it's programmed in a Visual Basic compatible language. It took me about a month to write the code, whereas I know of similar efforts that have taken a team of 6 programmers over 8 months to resolve, using C compilers. Maybe it's because they were crap at C, but IMHO it's easier to be crap at writing C than it is at writing BASIC. So, I don't believe in these "real men" statements, I believe in functionality, and picking the best tools for each job. Another project I'm involved in uses a custom-made Hitachi microprocessor, which is cost effective when you go over 5000 pieces, and these are programmed with (very expensive) C compilers. Just pick what's right for each occasion. Regards, Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Beeckler" <> To: <> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 5:26 PM Subject: [piclist] Real Men don't use BASIC! > Listen guys... > Why on EARTH would anybody pay a couple hundred > dollars for a BASIC compiler?? Please do your self a > favor and buy one of the good, low cost C compilers > such as CCS PIC C, or the other ones out there other > than hi-tech. Do a little research and don't kill the > futur of your project by using BASIC. let's face > it.... No REAL project is done in BASIC. > -John > PS, CCS game me their compiler and it KICKS ASS!!!! > You can buy it for like 1 or 2 hundred bucks. > > __________________________________________________ > to unsubscribe, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com and follow the instructions to unsubscribe, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com and follow the instructions ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! |
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Re: Real Men don't use BASIC! - Steve Nordhauser - Apr 25 12:56:00 2003
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I would like to assume that the originator of this thread was being a bit tongue in
cheek. Technology that is current changes, tools that are suspect also change. I remember
an STD bus manufacturer in the early 80's who shipped their processor boards with an empty
ROM socket - no BIOS, no monitor, no tools. He thought wimps used assemblers. They were
gone in a year. Assemblers were great tools - no more counting offsets on jumps. Then came
C - terrible tool for small processors, everyone thought it would never be useful on an 8
bit machine. Times and tools change. The same is happening in the PLD/FPGA world. Eventually you will be able to create an optimized design in C or some other programming language that rivals a good schematic for density and speed. But for now, many applications don't need to squeeze the last bit of performance out of the FPGA and the existing tools work great. The same is probably true with Basic. It can't do everything, can't run as fast, but it is easy to use and frequently can get the job done. Just my two scents. Steve Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:20:17 GMT From: Harold Hallikainen <> Subject: Re: Real Men don't use BASIC! I once heard that Bill Gates would take some project people had been working on for months and hack it out over the weekend in Basic. It SEEMS that a lot of Windoze applications are written in Visual Basic, based on the number of VB runtime errors I see. For PICs, I'm writing in assembly and C... Harold |
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Re: Re: Real Men don't use BASIC! - Vern Jones - Apr 25 13:24:00 2003
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How about this type of subject: Real computers must have front panels with switches no program down loaders, no boot roms, just switches. Scenes from the good old days. Vern rtstofer wrote: > > You mean to say JAL can't compile itself? C is often used to write C > compilers, Pascal has been used to build Pascal compilers (in fact > this is particularly easy with recursive descent). > > Just kidding, I realize it is a targeting problem. The JAL output is > for a PIC not a PC. Where on earth could that stack go on a PIC? > > I have started looking at JAL now that it has been hacked for Rick > Farmer's PIC Loader. Some in the MiniSumo Mark III group will be > taking up the language for their robot projects. I really expect JAL > to become quite popular. It has power and no price - a particularly > good combination. > > Thank you for creating the language and doing all the work to make it > available. > > My only suggestion is that you and the Mark III guys get together and > use a pragma for the code origin instead of a hack. It would be nice > to have something of a standard JAL. > > Best wishes! > > --- In , "Wouter van Ooijen" <wouter@v...> > wrote: > > > Real Men don't use BASIC! > > > > Real men certainly don't use C either, they invent their own > programming > > language and write a compiler for it (not an interpreter, that's for > > sissies). > > > > Wouter van Ooijen > > > > (author of the Jal language & compiler.) > > Note that I do not qualify as a real man: I used an existing C > compiler > > to write the Jal compiler :( > > > > -- ------------------------------------------- > > Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: www.voti.nl > > consultancy, development, PICmicro products > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > to unsubscribe, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com and follow the > instructions > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. |
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Re: Real Men don't use BASIC! - rtstofer - Apr 25 13:30:00 2003
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You are absolutely right - single stepping on real hardware is much more satisfying than using a simulator. I still have my Altair 8800 - I don't use it but I do keep it around to remind me what a computer is really made of. And it isn't GUI stuff. Yep, I used paper tape to load an editor/assembler and hand loaded the code to start the tape reader. That's the way it's supposed to be done. --- In , Vern Jones <soundres@f...> wrote: > How about this type of subject: Real computers must have front panels > with switches no program down loaders, no boot roms, just switches. > > Scenes from the good old days. > > Vern > > rtstofer wrote: > > > > You mean to say JAL can't compile itself? C is often used to write C > > compilers, Pascal has been used to build Pascal compilers (in fact > > this is particularly easy with recursive descent). > > > > Just kidding, I realize it is a targeting problem. The JAL output is > > for a PIC not a PC. Where on earth could that stack go on a PIC? > > > > I have started looking at JAL now that it has been hacked for Rick > > Farmer's PIC Loader. Some in the MiniSumo Mark III group will be > > taking up the language for their robot projects. I really expect JAL > > to become quite popular. It has power and no price - a particularly > > good combination. > > > > Thank you for creating the language and doing all the work to make it > > available. > > > > My only suggestion is that you and the Mark III guys get together and > > use a pragma for the code origin instead of a hack. It would be nice > > to have something of a standard JAL. > > > > Best wishes! > > > > --- In , "Wouter van Ooijen" <wouter@v...> > > wrote: > > > > Real Men don't use BASIC! > > > > > > Real men certainly don't use C either, they invent their own > > programming > > > language and write a compiler for it (not an interpreter, that's for > > > sissies). > > > > > > Wouter van Ooijen > > > > > > (author of the Jal language & compiler.) > > > Note that I do not qualify as a real man: I used an existing C > > compiler > > > to write the Jal compiler :( > > > > > > -- ------------------------------------------- > > > Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: www.voti.nl > > > consultancy, development, PICmicro products > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > > > to unsubscribe, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com and follow the > > instructions > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. |
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Dear Wouter Van Ooijen, Compiled vs. Enterpreter...(JAL) - John Beeckler - Apr 26 8:13:00 2003
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Dear Wouter Van Ooijen Call me prejudiced, but I still beleive that any serious project should be written in C over BASIC if there is that option of a reasonable price. About what you said about compiled and enterpreted languages, YOUR DAMNED RIGHT!! This ain't the internet, and it ain't a Machintosh.... Why on earth wouldnt somebody not compile their code ahead of time!?!?! Issue number 2: I've looked into your JAL and I didnt want to use it... Although I might have if I hadnt found a good C compiler. But, Let me say this loud and clear..."REAL MEN MAKE THEIR OWN COMPILERS" and you did that!! Rock on Wouter! -John --- Wouter van Ooijen <> wrote: > > Real Men don't use BASIC! > > Real men certainly don't use C either, they invent > their own programming > language and write a compiler for it (not an > interpreter, that's for > sissies). > > Wouter van Ooijen > > (author of the Jal language & compiler.) > Note that I do not qualify as a real man: I used an > existing C compiler > to write the Jal compiler :( __________________________________ |
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