dwight elvey wrote:
> 
> Hi Rich
>  Have you looked at the processors that AMR is selling
> in their gadget line of parts?
> Dwight

What about them?  As far as I have seen they are just typical 8051
chips, no? 

I finally got a price back on the Marc4 flash chips and they are very
pricey for what they are, over $4 each with a MOQ of 4K... that's a
$16,000 order minimum!  

No, they won't find a socket on my board :)


> rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<4050A696.2C20AA0E@yahoo.com>...
> > Ulf Samuelsson wrote:
> > >
> > > rickman wrote:
> > > > Wolfgang Allinger wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>  On 09 Mar 04 at group /comp/lang/forth in article
> > > >>  <4fbeeb5a.0403090804.1d14f24a@posting.google.com>
> > > >>  <fox@ultratechnology.com>  (Jeff Fox)  wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > >>>> news:<404D5EA1.96F2C309@yahoo.com>... I was browsing the
> > > >>>> Ultratechnology web site and I found a reference to a MARC4 family
> > > >>>> of Forth 4 bit MCUs.  Turns out they are pretty much what I have
> > > >>>> been looking for; very low power, small package, with Flash in
> > > >>>> automotive temperature... pretty cool.  They are actually Forth
> > > >>>> processors in that they implement a stack architecture that is used
> > > >>>> to host Forth.
> > > >>
> > >
> > > ...
> > > I will forward my MARC4 presentation to Rick.
> > > Anyone else interested ... ?
> >
> > Thanks for the help.  But next time, ask before you send a large file by
> > email.  It is downloading now and I won't be able to receive any other
> > emails for the next couple of hours or so.
> >
> > I wish you had mentioned these chips before when I was posting about
> > automotive parts.  I know they don't fit the profile I was asking about
> > due to lack of temperature measurement, but I would have liked to have
> > known they were out there.  Being able to run off a 32kHz xtal and a
> > watch battery is a useful feature.  Even the AVRs and PICs can't do that
> > at <2 uA in the automotive range.

-- 

Rick "rickman" Collins

rick.collins@XYarius.com
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design      URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave                               301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110                 301-682-7666 FAX

rickman wrote:

<snip>
>>One more sanity check: a CD4060 in 16TSSOP is $0.15 on tape and reel
>>from Digikey.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the info.  But the current on the CD4060 is 5 uA at 5 volts
> just at room temp.  I think this part alone would drain the max current
> I can allow.  
> 
> I have a solution using the microBuddy.  This part is designed to
> provide these functions and some others.  I am just trying to make the
> solution smaller and cheaper.  There are a lot of control functions that
> I would like to see in one part, but that chip is not made by anyone. 
> So it comes down to multiple chips in many different possible
> configurations.  
> 
> I thought the MARC4 would help with a better combination in the part
> that *has* to be automotive temp, but at this point it looks like it is
> going to be too pricey.  I'll wait for the price quote however.  
> 
> Another solution that I have not gotten full info on is the PSOC from
> Cypress.  I don't know if it can meet the Idd requirement for the RTC,
> but it looks like it can do everything else, including temp
> measurement.  But the boogers won't be putting the automotive temp part
> in the QFN package.  I guess the QFN package and the automotive market
> don't go together.  Still, an SSOP28 isn't too bad. 
> 
> As long as I am whining, I'll complain about the PIC parts.  They have
> nearly every combination of temperature, voltage, package, features and
> IO count you could ever conceive of.  Except for the 28 QFN with an
> actual low price 28 pin part!  They put 20 pin parts in the 28 QFN, but
> they omit the 28 pin parts that would give me the IO I need (and the
> other features).  If I go up to the 44 QFN, the price jumps to $6 and
> up.  
> 
> This has been an extremely frustrating search since there are so many
> parts that just don't quite make it.  :)

Zilog have just posted more info on their Z8Encore XP family.
You could see how close this gets to making it ?

Relevent specs would seem to be
* Extended temp model available ( not 125'C, but 105'C )
* Specs 2uA with 10KHz WDOG running
* Prices start at 89c/10K to $1.44/10K
* has 32Khz XTAL OSC mode, but no Icc specs yet..
* SSOP20 package

This is first silicon (XP variant), as reflected in the errata.
-jg

Hi Rich
 Have you looked at the processors that AMR is selling
in their gadget line of parts?
Dwight


rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<4050A696.2C20AA0E@yahoo.com>...
> Ulf Samuelsson wrote:
> > 
> > rickman wrote:
> > > Wolfgang Allinger wrote:
> > >>
> > >>  On 09 Mar 04 at group /comp/lang/forth in article
> > >>  <4fbeeb5a.0403090804.1d14f24a@posting.google.com>
> > >>  <fox@ultratechnology.com>  (Jeff Fox)  wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > >>>> news:<404D5EA1.96F2C309@yahoo.com>... I was browsing the
> > >>>> Ultratechnology web site and I found a reference to a MARC4 family
> > >>>> of Forth 4 bit MCUs.  Turns out they are pretty much what I have
> > >>>> been looking for; very low power, small package, with Flash in
> > >>>> automotive temperature... pretty cool.  They are actually Forth
> > >>>> processors in that they implement a stack architecture that is used
> > >>>> to host Forth.
> > >>
> > 
> > ...
> > I will forward my MARC4 presentation to Rick.
> > Anyone else interested ... ?
> 
> Thanks for the help.  But next time, ask before you send a large file by
> email.  It is downloading now and I won't be able to receive any other
> emails for the next couple of hours or so.  
> 
> I wish you had mentioned these chips before when I was posting about
> automotive parts.  I know they don't fit the profile I was asking about
> due to lack of temperature measurement, but I would have liked to have
> known they were out there.  Being able to run off a 32kHz xtal and a
> watch battery is a useful feature.  Even the AVRs and PICs can't do that
> at <2 uA in the automotive range.  
> 
> -- 
> 
> Rick "rickman" Collins
> 
> rick.collins@XYarius.com
> Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
> removed.
> 
> Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
> Specializing in DSP and FPGA design      URL http://www.arius.com
> 4 King Ave                               301-682-7772 Voice
> Frederick, MD 21701-3110                 301-682-7666 FAX

rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<405228CF.7132F01C@yahoo.com>...
> 
> As long as I am whining, I'll complain about the PIC parts.  They have
> nearly every combination of temperature, voltage, package, features and
> IO count you could ever conceive of.  Except for the 28 QFN with an
> actual low price 28 pin part!  They put 20 pin parts in the 28 QFN, but
> they omit the 28 pin parts that would give me the IO I need (and the
> other features).  If I go up to the 44 QFN, the price jumps to $6 and
> up.  
> 
> This has been an extremely frustrating search since there are so many
> parts that just don't quite make it.  :)
> 
Chip on board?
Putting on bond wires isn't a typical small shop activity, but you can
usually get wedge bonders from ebay cheap.

nospaambrad1@tinyboot.com (Brad Eckert) wrote in message news:<7d4cc56.0403120817.78af6ddc@posting.google.com>...
> 
> One more sanity check: a CD4060 in 16TSSOP is $0.15 on tape and reel
> from Digikey.
> 
er, I see that the quiescent current of a 4060 is something like 6uA
so it's a little high.

Jim Granville wrote:
> 
> rickman wrote:
> <snip>
> > As long as I am whining, I'll complain about the PIC parts.  They have
> > nearly every combination of temperature, voltage, package, features and
> > IO count you could ever conceive of.  Except for the 28 QFN with an
> > actual low price 28 pin part!  They put 20 pin parts in the 28 QFN, but
> > they omit the 28 pin parts that would give me the IO I need (and the
> > other features).  If I go up to the 44 QFN, the price jumps to $6 and
> > up.
> 
>   Sounds awfully like the 28 die (which is commonly the 40 pin one @ PIC
> ) simply does not fit in the QFN28 ?

No, they seem to make the parts with more memory in the QFN28, it is
just the low end parts that would be around $3 that they don't put in
the smaller package.  The parts that do come in the QFN28 package are no
more expensive than the SSOP28 or the SO28 parts, so it is not the cost
of the package.  

It is also funny how on most of the parts, the memory size only affects
the price a small amount.  But on the parts in this range, the 2K parts
are over a buck cheaper than the 4K parts.  I don't know what is
different about the PIC18 from the PIC16, but you have to pay as much
for a PIC18 with 16K Flash as you do a Philips 2104 with 16 kB RAM and
128 kB Flash!  I just don't get pricing in a lot of these parts.  

This is why I think the 32 bit parts will start to take over from the 8
bit parts.  I read just today that the demand for 16 bit MCUs in ASICs
will start to drop off next year as the ARM7 starts to replace them.  

-- 

Rick "rickman" Collins

rick.collins@XYarius.com
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design      URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave                               301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110                 301-682-7666 FAX

rickman wrote:
<snip>
> As long as I am whining, I'll complain about the PIC parts.  They have
> nearly every combination of temperature, voltage, package, features and
> IO count you could ever conceive of.  Except for the 28 QFN with an
> actual low price 28 pin part!  They put 20 pin parts in the 28 QFN, but
> they omit the 28 pin parts that would give me the IO I need (and the
> other features).  If I go up to the 44 QFN, the price jumps to $6 and
> up.  

  Sounds awfully like the 28 die (which is commonly the 40 pin one @ PIC 
) simply does not fit in the QFN28 ?

> This has been an extremely frustrating search since there are so many
> parts that just don't quite make it.  :)

That's always the way... Engineering is the art of building what you
want using what you can get...

-jg

Brad Eckert wrote:
> 
> rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<40514DCB.B658B9A6@yahoo.com>...
> > I have not
> > found any automotive temp QFNs other than the PICs.  They don't get down
> > to this low current, so I would have to use a separate RTC which is what
> > I am trying to optimize out  :)
> 
> How about Fairchild Semiconductor ACE1502V.
> http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/AC/ACE1502.pdf
> 
> 1.8V to 3.6V, -40C to +125C operation, but no RTC. Maybe use a CD4060
> to produce 2Hz from a watch crystal and bring it out of HALT mode
> every 1/2 sec. With a run current of 500uA you have a whole
> millisecond to wake up, update the RTC and halt to get 1uA average
> from the micro. Halt mode is typically 100nA.
> 
> One more sanity check: a CD4060 in 16TSSOP is $0.15 on tape and reel
> from Digikey.

Thanks for the info.  But the current on the CD4060 is 5 uA at 5 volts
just at room temp.  I think this part alone would drain the max current
I can allow.  

I have a solution using the microBuddy.  This part is designed to
provide these functions and some others.  I am just trying to make the
solution smaller and cheaper.  There are a lot of control functions that
I would like to see in one part, but that chip is not made by anyone. 
So it comes down to multiple chips in many different possible
configurations.  

I thought the MARC4 would help with a better combination in the part
that *has* to be automotive temp, but at this point it looks like it is
going to be too pricey.  I'll wait for the price quote however.  

Another solution that I have not gotten full info on is the PSOC from
Cypress.  I don't know if it can meet the Idd requirement for the RTC,
but it looks like it can do everything else, including temp
measurement.  But the boogers won't be putting the automotive temp part
in the QFN package.  I guess the QFN package and the automotive market
don't go together.  Still, an SSOP28 isn't too bad. 

As long as I am whining, I'll complain about the PIC parts.  They have
nearly every combination of temperature, voltage, package, features and
IO count you could ever conceive of.  Except for the 28 QFN with an
actual low price 28 pin part!  They put 20 pin parts in the 28 QFN, but
they omit the 28 pin parts that would give me the IO I need (and the
other features).  If I go up to the 44 QFN, the price jumps to $6 and
up.  

This has been an extremely frustrating search since there are so many
parts that just don't quite make it.  :)

-- 

Rick "rickman" Collins

rick.collins@XYarius.com
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design      URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave                               301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110                 301-682-7666 FAX

Wolfgang Allinger wrote:
> 
>  On 12 Mar 04 at group /comp/lang/forth in article
>  <40515133.9ABDB5A9@yahoo.com>
>  <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com>  (rickman)  wrote:
> 
> >I am familiar with both the Cygnal (si labs) parts as well as
> >amrForth. But it would be a tough sell to get a vendor to qualify
> >parts outside their normal range.  I can't put a part on my board that
> >the vendor can't tell me will work.  There are coils, for example,
> >that only spec down to -25C.  Normally low temps are not a problem,
> >but they say they can't meet the temp shock tests below -25C.  So I am
> >not going to argue with them.
> 
> However are there Li batteries specified for -40C to 125C?

Oh yes.  Panasonic has a line of coin cells that are rated over this
full range.  There is also a movement to provide batteries to use in
tires for pressure sensing.  These new devices will be rated for -40 to
125C as well.  They seem to be just a bit large for my apps though.  

> >I would like to use a Cygnal part as a Dallas 1-wire replacement.  But
> >the cost is too high, even for the 11 pin parts.  I would need
> >something under $1.50 (industrial temp range, not automotive).  I know
> >a lot of people like the Cygnal parts, but I find them over priced for
> >most apps.
> 
> Sadly yes :-(

There are other devices, when I get to that point, I will put together a
list of all the small MLF devices and pick one.  That 11 pin package is
really nice and small though.  

-- 

Rick "rickman" Collins

rick.collins@XYarius.com
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design      URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave                               301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110                 301-682-7666 FAX