In article <r...@4ax.com>, Dan <dan@dontsp
ammecauseidontlikit.com> writes
>On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 02:24:29 GMT, Neil Kurzman <n...@mail.asb.com>
>wrote:
>
>>There are free and lost cost C compilers available.  Not C++ so
>>be sure you know C ( C++ is not the same thing). 
>
>GNU gcc is free, exellent, and C++.  You're definately not limited to
>C.  

You are for 8 bit processors

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England    /\/\/\/\/\
/\/\/ c...@phaedsys.org       www.phaedsys.org \/\/
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In article <3...@4ax.com>, Dan <dan@dontsp
ammecauseidontlikit.com> writes
>On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 11:24:40 GMT, Jonathan Kirwan
><j...@easystreet.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Since the OP specifically mentioned trying to gain knowledge to help secure a
>>job in embedded programming and admitted little assembly experience, I'd
>>recommend working especially on the assembly skills. 
>
>I have to disagree.  I have an embedded application on a Hitachi
>processor with close to 16,000 lines of C++ code.  The total assembly
>code is less than 20 lines.  To spend a lot of time learning assembly
>is counter-productive.  Code written in C and C++ is significantly
>easier to write, debug and maintain.  Knowledge of assembly can at
>times be helpful, but keep it in the 20 to 16,000 perspective.

The vast majority of embedded systems are 8 bit. There are no C++
compilers for 8 bit systems (not commercial quality anyway)

It is VERY useful to know assembly for any embedded target you work on. 

The last stats I saw said C, ASM and C++ in that order for embedded
systems. Of course it gets hazy when you look at PC104 and PDA's etc



/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England    /\/\/\/\/\
/\/\/ c...@phaedsys.org       www.phaedsys.org \/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

> The vast majority of embedded systems are 8 bit. There are no C++
> compilers for 8 bit systems (not commercial quality anyway)
>

So what about the IAR EC++ for the AVR?

> /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
> \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England    /\/\/\/\/\
> /\/\/ c...@phaedsys.org       www.phaedsys.org \/\/
> \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

-- 
Best Regards,
Ulf Samuelsson
u...@a-t-m-e-l.com
This message is intended to be my own personal view and it
may or may not be shared by my employer Atmel Nordic AB

"Paul E. Bennett" <p...@amleth.demon.co.uk> writes:

> If you search around for RCX Forth you probably will find a nicer 
> environment for the little Lego block.

It's pretty good.  I've been writing my own Forth cross compiler for
it.  While pbForth is a good way to learn Forth, it won't necessarily
teach much about embedded systems on its own.

There's also legOS lets you program directly with a GCC cross
compiler, has multiple tasks, semaphores, lets you add your own
interrupt handlers, and so forth.  So it gives more direct exposure
to embedded systems concepts.

-- 
Darin Johnson
    Gravity is a harsh mistress -- The Tick

OK, so I think I want to build my own mp3 player.  Is this too big of a
task for entering into embedded systems?  Which processors/development
systems mentioned here would fit my low budget, ease of use criteria?

I'm thinking PIC since I recently came across this:
http://www.ladyada.net/make/minty/hardware.html

>From what I have gathered from all of you, the common, low cost
processors vendors are :
PIC
Hitachi
Freescale
Olimex

If I am wrong about these, let me know.

Rob Miller wrote:

> OK, so I think I want to build my own mp3 player.  Is this too big of a
> task for entering into embedded systems?  Which processors/development
> systems mentioned here would fit my low budget, ease of use criteria?
>
> I'm thinking PIC since I recently came across this:
> http://www.ladyada.net/make/minty/hardware.html
>
> >From what I have gathered from all of you, the common, low cost
> processors vendors are :
> PIC
> Hitachi
> Freescale
> Olimex
>
> If I am wrong about these, let me know.

No an MP3 Player is an embedded project.  I do not know if it is good for a
beginner.

for low end CPUs
PIC
Atmel AVR
Hitachi
Freescale
8052 (many companies)
Olimex ?? not a chip maker, protoboards
TI   MPS430 (16bits )
Cypress PSoC
Zilog

> The vast majority of embedded systems are 8 bit. There are no C++
> compilers for 8 bit systems (not commercial quality anyway)
>
> It is VERY useful to know assembly for any embedded target you work on.
>
> The last stats I saw said C, ASM and C++ in that order for embedded
> systems. Of course it gets hazy when you look at PC104 and PDA's etc
>
>
>
> /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
> \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England    /\/\/\/\/\
> /\/\/ c...@phaedsys.org       www.phaedsys.org \/\/
> \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

CodeWarrior for the Freescale HC(S)08 has this claim:
http://www.metrowerks.com/MW/Develop/Embedded/HC08/Default.htm
Industry leading ANSI C/C++ and compact C++ compilers, which support EC++
guidelines for embedded C++ development and generate ELF/DWARF files for
execution and debugging

Gary Schnabl

"arya" <a...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Get the new S12NE64 development kit from freescale (< $100) with the
> BDM programmer (~ $99). You can then use the Metrowerks compiler (free
> upto 4K of code) or you can get the 30 day trial from them.

Metrowerks upped the Special Edition version's code limit from 4K to 16K
several months ago for both the HC08 and the HC12:
http://www.metrowerks.com/MW/Develop/Embedded/HC08/HC08_fmatrix.htm
http://www.metrowerks.com/MW/Develop/Embedded/HC12/HC12_fmatrix.htm

If you got a couple free GB on your hard-drive, you can install all three
free Special Editions. You can get the 16KB Special Edition for the Hybrid 7
(Freescale DSP56F8xx, DSP568xx, and DSP56F8xxx) also, but it's listed as 8K
(16-bit) words.

Description of the Hybrid 7 Special Edition (typical for all special
editions):
TARGET: Special Edition is targeted at assembly code projects or small
projects with a limited amount of C
code. Debugging is mostly done with Evaluation Boards or directly on the
target application.

Features: there are some limitations to the special edition:
. Unlimited assembler
. C compiler limited to 8KWords of object code
      (There is no code size limitation when developing in assembly.)
. Linker limited to 8KWords of C code
. IDE unlimited.

Upgrade options available for the Special Edition (requires a few $):
For customers developing C based applications and using more than 8KWords of
code, three upgrade
options are available, a 32KWords option, a full 64KWords option, and an
unlimited Standard Edition

The upgrade to the 32KWords offers:
. C compiler object code increased to up to 32KWords

The upgrade to the full 64KWords offers:
. C compiler object code for up to 64KWords

> The NE64 is their first Ethernet enabled micro. It does have come with
> an ethernet stack. I could not get that to compile in 4k.
>
> If you wish to spend more on the board, try the HCS08 boards. THe
> metrowerks compiler is free for up to 16k of compiled code. I have
> developed embedded products with less code space.


The complete list of evaluation boards from FSL:
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/library/toolslist.jsp


There are two boards for the MC9S12NE64 - a demo board for $75 and the
standard EVM for $249. The demo DSP56F8223 board is also available for
around $75.

The RAD tool - Processor Expert - is on all of the IDEs that I cited above.


Gary Schnabl

On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 22:28:38 +0000, Chris Hills <c...@phaedsys.org>
wrote:

>In article <r...@4ax.com>, Dan <dan@dontsp
>ammecauseidontlikit.com> writes
>>On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 02:24:29 GMT, Neil Kurzman <n...@mail.asb.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>There are free and lost cost C compilers available.  Not C++ so
>>>be sure you know C ( C++ is not the same thing). 
>>
>>GNU gcc is free, exellent, and C++.  You're definately not limited to
>>C.  
>
>You are for 8 bit processors

Depends on your 8-bit processor.  GCC supports C++ for AVR.  I don't
use it myself, but others do, and it is supported and available.

Ciebo used to have a C++ for 8051.  Never heard anything good about
it.

Leaving C++, there is a Modula-2 for 8051.

Hmmm.  Is PLM still around?

Regards,

                               -=Dave
-- 
Change is inevitable, progress is not.

In article <4...@News.individual.net>, Dave Hansen
<i...@hotmail.com> writes
>On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 22:28:38 +0000, Chris Hills <c...@phaedsys.org>
>wrote:
>
>>In article <r...@4ax.com>, Dan <dan@dontsp
>>ammecauseidontlikit.com> writes
>>>On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 02:24:29 GMT, Neil Kurzman <n...@mail.asb.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>There are free and lost cost C compilers available.  Not C++ so
>>>>be sure you know C ( C++ is not the same thing). 
>>>
>>>GNU gcc is free, exellent, and C++.  You're definately not limited to
>>>C.  
>>
>>You are for 8 bit processors
>
>Depends on your 8-bit processor.  GCC supports C++ for AVR.  I don't
>use it myself, but others do, and it is supported and available.
>
>Ciebo used to have a C++ for 8051.  Never heard anything good about
>it.

Which I think proves my point. GCC for one processor and Ceibo for
another. The code density of the GCC makes it not very useful compared
to the commercial C compilers for the AVR.

>Leaving C++, there is a Modula-2 for 8051.

!!!!!! ?Where did this come from? Mod2 is a procedural language like C
but a lot less well supported. It is effectively as dead as Pascal.
There is more Forth about than Mod2 and Pascal.

>Hmmm.  Is PLM still around?
Yes but not supported at all AFAIK. Though I do have one of the last
versions of the Intel PLM compiler for 51 and x86. It is used for
maintenance of some VERY old MoD projects.


/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England    /\/\/\/\/\
/\/\/ c...@phaedsys.org       www.phaedsys.org \/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/