Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
> ....
> Okay.  I'm having fun.  I hope you don't mind if I post a few links to
> pictures.
>

It does looks terrific and with all the woodpeckers squirrles and
whatnot
it sounds like a paradise for the camera-hunter I have become lately.
 But what about winter? How long/harsh is it typically? (Not last
winter,
I guess we are all still expecting it to quite go away in mid
June... :-) ).

Didi

------------------------------------------------------
Dimiter Popoff               Transgalactic Instruments

http://www.tgi-sci.com
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Original message: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.arch.embedded/msg/f1ad55f68483a56a?dmode=source

Jim Granville wrote:
> It will not be a Direct Flash Cell effect, but more likely a Software
> crash, that jumps into a Flash Write routine.
> 
> This is one reason why many Automotive designs insist on a FLASH_ENABLE 
> pin, so that a simple SW crash CANNOT cause un-recoverable damage.

Or they insist that flash-write routines simply don't exist in the 
application.  A routine that's not physically present in the chip can't 
accidentally be run.  Nice and simple, really.

They only get uploaded into the controller RAM at flash-update time.

"Jim Granville" <n...@designtools.maps.co.nz> wrote in message news:48548d1f$1...@clear.net.nz...
> TheM wrote:
>> It could be a design with long supply wires (as antennas) and poor RF
>> blocking caps close to uCPU.
>>
>> Flash corruption due to EM field at 6 feet distance sounds a bit far fetched.
>
> It will not be a Direct Flash Cell effect, but more likely a Software
> crash, that jumps into a Flash Write routine.

Yep, I thought that was the real cause. I think Joerg pointed out GSM phones
can be especially nasty with their pulsed carrier.

100W VHF at 6-feet away should be relatively easy to counter with proper pcb
layout and ferrite beads and RF blocking caps, but designer probably never expected
strong rf fields. Even worse would be if the write protection fuses were not set.

> This is one reason why many Automotive designs insist on a FLASH_ENABLE pin, so that a simple SW crash CANNOT cause
un-recoverable 
> damage.

I suspect the programmed fuses that should prevent writing over flash section may
not always work. External pin is probably more reliable.

M 

"Jim Granville" <n...@designtools.maps.co.nz> wrote in message news:48548fc4$1...@clear.net.nz...
> Robert Adsett wrote:
> Not quite:
> The latest Mar 2008 data for the FM25H20 2MBit FRAM, (40MHz) specs 10^14 Wd/Wr,
> (which I guess is per Byte?).
>
> Most data application will be well under that, but it could start to
> bother an execute-from-flash design, sitting in a tight loop.
>
> These parts have very Niche-prices, around 20x that of vanilla flash,
> so you really have to need their better features :)
>
> -jg

Ok, still two orders of magnitude improvement. The bad part is it applies to
reading as well :(

The 64K I2C parts were 1-2 euro AFAIR. 4M freescale part is another story.
I like them for speed and the fact they can't be destroyed by runaway software,
at least in I2C variant.

M

Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 08:36:57 -0700, Joerg
> <n...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
> 
>> Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
>>> On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:23:42 -0700, Joerg
>>> <n...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:42:27 -0700, Joerg
>>>>> <n...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> After some problems a client saw I was treated to my own dose of what is 
>>>>>> likely flash loss: The uC in our mailbox door has become erratic. I 
>>>>>> installed it about three months ago and half of the day it receives a 
>>>>>> good pelting from the sun. First it began not recognizing some keys, 
>>>>>> then it started doing weird stuff like lock cycling. Things it wasn't 
>>>>>> meant to ever do. Batteries, contacts and such look ok, reset didn't 
>>>>>> help, so that's not it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TI has an app note about the topic:
>>>>>> http://focus.ti.com/lit/an/slaa392/slaa392.pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Figure 1 looks scary above the 80C range. Later they presented another 
>>>>>> test with a different bake cycle which makes things look better but who 
>>>>>> knows.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What is you experience with respect to flash errors on uC that are 
>>>>>> exposed to elevated temperatures as most outdoors applications are?
>>>>> I only have some small experience here with the MSP430.  It seems to
>>>>> operate at 140C at 3V and 3.3V for the several-hour long tests I've
>>>>> done.  But some bad experiences in storing data into the flash at that
>>>>> temp and even at 3.3V and higher.  But I didn't need the darn thing to
>>>>> survive all that long, either.
>>>> Wow, problems within hours at 140C? Not cool :-(
>>> No.  No problems, at all.  Just that I didn't run them for more than
>>> about 5 hours at a time.  Same one ran for weeks, though, at periodic
>>> elevated temperatures.  I was just collecting data from a rotating hot
>>> surface and wanted to just stick the whole contraption there while it
>>> stored a few bits of data into RAM.  The battery was the problem.
>> However, you said "But some bad experiences in storing data into the 
>> flash at that temp and even at 3.3V and higher."
> 
> Yes, I did.  I gather you want to do that.
> 
>>>>> I haven't read, for understanding, the data sheet you mentioned.  I
>>>>> just downloaded it, though, and thanks for pointing it up.  I think it
>>>>> wasn't around when I looked a few years back and I'm glad that you
>>>>> pointed it up for me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your obvious solution is to move north about a thousand miles.  ;)
>>>> My wife would absolutely not do that.
>>> Oregon is absolutely beautiful!  I've got pileated woodpeckers, 4
>>> kinds of squirrels including a flying squirrel (nocturnal), peafowl,
>>> chickens, guinea hens, turkeys and so on -- tall 60-80 year old firs,
>>> two kinds of ferns, rhododendrons that bloom in succession around the
>>> place, and it looks like a lush rain-forest national forest when you
>>> walk the paths on the property.  Lots of acres, 5000 sq ft home, 1/4
>>> mile driveway to the house, view of the mountains, 5 minutes to a
>>> hospital and 20 minutes to the PDX international airport, a 17 mile
>>> well-maintained walking and horse trail that goes from 1/2 mile away
>>> from my home to the Willamette River in Portland, and it cost me $330k
>>> in 2002.  Prices are still low, too.  Next door has been on the block
>>> for 2 years, is a million dollar home (tax appraisal price) with about
>>> 4500 sq ft and 5 acres, and is being offered at $599k now.  I'm told
>>> they'd accept under $500k.  Neighbors are wonderful, too.
>> That sure sounds mouth-watering. But my wife likes places where there is 
>> no winter (and now ours get colder every year ...) and I'd have a wee 
>> problem with the property tax rates up there. 2% or more is IMHO 
>> confiscatory. Oh, and I like proposition 13 (prop tax increase cap) in 
>> California because I do not trust politicians enough to toss them the 
>> keys to my bank account.
> 
> My place is appraised at $850k (down there, I know that is just a
> shack but up here it's 5000 sq ft of quality, showy home and lots of
> acres of prime hilltop land) and my property taxes are $4400/year.
> Which is kind of high, I admit.  It's the income taxes you'll probably
> hate.  It's a graduated rate, but I think the top rate (which applies
> to most engineers, without even asking) is 9%.  However, no sales tax.
> 

It a similar income tax structure here in CA with the dems wanting more 
and more and more. Luckily we now have a 2/3 majority req for tax raise, 
thanks to the aforementioned Prop 13. We also have a sales tax on top of 
that and it still ain't enough :-(

However, you may just be lucky that you bought your house at low cost. 
I've heard people retiring to Oregon and after buying a $400k house they 
got socked with an $8k (!) tax bill. Oh no, not me. One really has to 
watch it these days.


>>> 3' of fantastic soils, 45" of rain a year nice and evenly distributed
>>> all year 'round in a constant drizzle, and everything grows where you
>>> throw the seed, no digging needed.  What could be better?  ;)
>> Ah, you shouldn't have written "drizzle", my wife would hate that kind 
>> of weather.
> 
> I did that on purpose.  I didn't want to make it seem too inviting.
> Actually, I've come to appreciate the constant press of low clouds
> overhead and the slippery feel of moist moss as you carefully walk
> across your one year old, rotting wooden deck.
> 

In winter it's the same here. We are on a hill and often "in" the 
clouds. Our Rottweiler used to bark them away upon approach but he gave 
up on that. We found PreservaWood deck stain to hold up pretty well.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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Jim Granville wrote:
> Joerg wrote:
> 
>> Jim Granville wrote:
>>
>>> For more critical uses, Infineon seem to have well-spec'd uC -
>>> their new ones all have Error Correcting Flash, and 125'C models.
>>>
>>> http://www.infineon.com/XC800
>>>
>>> Also recently added are a series of Transmitter ICs for Wireless 
>>> Control, that have Sub 1GHz Transmitters, and Low power Flash C51's
>>> - one targets Tire Pressure, at Automotive temp range.
>>> http://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/promopages/pma5110/index.html
>>>
> 
> and they also have a 140'C rated variant....
> 
> 
>> Aha! Thanks. Seems there is some hope. Although I am not much of an 
>> Infineon fan. The reaction time of their CA office can be, well, just 
>> like the name suggests, infinity.
> 
> They do seem to be expanding use of Digikey.
> 
> Digikey shows 4,153 Infineon items, of which 275 are Microcontrollers,
> and of those 46 are XC8xx series.
> 

Do it again but "in stock only". Makes it dwindle down to 1209 parts. 
IMHO the guys there need to learn about marketing.


> [Just not yet the nice looking 20 pin XC864, or 64K XC878's, or
> the Wireless Control ones above ..... too new...  - sigh...]
> 

Try to get samples out of their Bay Area office. Did that for a FET a 
while ago. It took about 10 phone calls to get one call back. Told them 
I'd pay whatever it takes. Nada, zilch. That taught me a lesson :-(

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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Gordon S. Hlavenka wrote:
> Joerg wrote:
>> The flag is the problem. Unfortunately uC manufacturers have not put 
>> that much thought into the reset routine. It just jumps to a fixed 
>> address and when the data there is corrupt the application is toast.
> 
> I'm working with an 89lpc952 (Phillips/NXT) which comes preprogrammed 
> with a bootloader in the top Flash sector.  There's a flag that, when 
> set, will cause execution to start there instead of the normal reset 
> vector.
> 

That would be a start, as long as the device can still be programmed 
after you've chucked the bootloader.


> You're free to overwrite the bootloader with something else, so perhaps 
> that facility could be used for one side of the flipflop?
> 
> Of course, the '952 also has IAP which I don't think can be disabled...
> 

IAP can increase the risk of flash corruption but not being familiar 
with the NXP devices I don't know by how much. Nowadays most uC can 
write flash from within a application though.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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In sci.electronics.design Joerg <n...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
> Hello All,
> 
> After some problems a client saw I was treated to my own dose of what is 
> likely flash loss: The uC in our mailbox door has become erratic. I 

Though not directly related, 
http://space.brunel.ac.uk/bitstream/2438/1385/1/JonesKenyon-SIMS-FSI-archive.pdf
is interesting.
(data retention at 450C)

Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 19:48:34 PST,
> m...@mojaveg.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com (Everett M. Greene) wrote:
> 
>> Frank Buss <f...@frank-buss.de> writes:
>>> Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>> 3' of fantastic soils, 45" of rain a year nice and evenly distributed
>>>> all year 'round in a constant drizzle, and everything grows where you
>>>> throw the seed, no digging needed.  What could be better?  ;)
>>> Sounds great if you want to become a farmer :-) I'm living near Cologne
>>> centre, but a quiet back road near the Rhein. Just a rented flat and not
>>> acres of grass and bushes around it, but supermarkets, stores, pubs,
>>> restaurants, theaters, cinemas, parks etc., all within walking distance.
>> And it's well known that (western) Oregonians don't tan,
>> they rust.
> 
> ;)
> 
> I just spent a nice day today at a fly-in for nitro and electric
> helicopter models.  It was a nice day of about 64-67F and I spent
> about 5 hours in the 45-degree N latitude sun.  Horrible sunburn I'm
> sitting here suffering from, right now!  (I get 2nd degree burns in 15
> minutes in LA, by the way.  I need the cloud cover!)
> 

That's the Irish/Swedish genes in you I guess. Mine are mostly German 
but I don't get sunburn easily, I just become darker and darker. Hmm, 
maybe I've got some other genes in me that nobody remembers ...

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 03:02:51 -0700 (PDT), Didi <d...@tgi-sci.com> wrote:

>Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
>> ....
>> Okay.  I'm having fun.  I hope you don't mind if I post a few links to
>> pictures.
>>
>
>It does looks terrific and with all the woodpeckers squirrles and
>whatnot
>it sounds like a paradise for the camera-hunter I have become lately.
> But what about winter? How long/harsh is it typically?

The climate here is quite moderate, generally.  Winters can be like
this in the higher elevations (I'm at about 900' above sea level), but
this is rarer at the lower elevations in western Oregon:

 http://www.infinitefactors.org/misc/images/Snow-Bent%20Trees.jpg

That above picture last happened near my property in winter of 2003.
But I've not seen the like since then.

We used to get a silver thaw in the lower elevations near Portland
almost every other year or every year.  I haven't seen one since 1981,
though.  And Mt. Hood has lost close to 50% of its glacier mass
balance (gleaned from personal discussions with two climate
researchers -- one who studies mass balance of the Washington state
glaciers and the other who personally treks through Mt. Hood every
year gathering surface ice/snow data) in the last 30-50 years.  (If I
recall, there are 11 significant glaciers on Mt. Hood.)  I have lived
here since 1955 and my own experience concurs with this trend.  So the
winters in the lower elevations of the Willamette valley, in my
opinion, have become less severe in terms of ice/snow.  However, I
think, precipitation seems to have remained similar overall.  Just the
distribution seems to be perhaps a little more rain in the winters and
less in the summers.

In short, you'd find it a paradise for photography pretty much all
year 'round.

>(Not last winter,
>I guess we are all still expecting it to quite go away in mid
>June... :-) ).

Yes, it's been weird here, this year.  There seems to have been a
significant change in the wind patterns over the north polar area -- a
shift in the cyclonal center of mass.  Winds and water currents drove
sea ice along the edge of the Russian Arctic (Novaya Zemlya) and a
sort of polynya emerged a bit early off the Canadian arctic coast
between the archipelago, the Alaska border and Baffin Bay.  This year
seems to be unusual to me in these respects and perhaps may have
played a part in the somewhat unusual (record breaking, here) weather
patterns we've had in the month of May.

By the way, that polynya I mentioned and other smaller polynyas
suggest furthering of the thin and fairly weak annual ice of late.
This is consistent with the fact that the relative fraction of
multi-year ice in the central Arctic has plummeted, roughly since the
mid-1990s.  However, it also seems that this year's first year ice
(brine pocketed) is in an unusual location that may help it survive
better than usually expected -- much of it is farther north than usual
so it might be less vulnerable to melt allowing time for the brine to
expel and the ice to firm up somewhat.  Still, while having first year
ice further north means that ice may have a better chance to continue
a while longer that shouldn't be read as good news -- it means that
first year ice is forming closer to the pole which is generally not
good big picture news and the overall direction of decline there
continues.

As more of the polar ocean becomes exposed to solar insolation, which
has quite a different albedo, I expect continued significant and
interesting changes in the energy transfer mechanisms for some years.

Jon