On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 09:43:04 -0700, Joerg
<n...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

>Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
>> On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 19:48:34 PST,
>> m...@mojaveg.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com (Everett M. Greene) wrote:
>> 
>>> Frank Buss <f...@frank-buss.de> writes:
>>>> Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>> 3' of fantastic soils, 45" of rain a year nice and evenly distributed
>>>>> all year 'round in a constant drizzle, and everything grows where you
>>>>> throw the seed, no digging needed.  What could be better?  ;)
>>>> Sounds great if you want to become a farmer :-) I'm living near Cologne
>>>> centre, but a quiet back road near the Rhein. Just a rented flat and not
>>>> acres of grass and bushes around it, but supermarkets, stores, pubs,
>>>> restaurants, theaters, cinemas, parks etc., all within walking distance.
>>> And it's well known that (western) Oregonians don't tan,
>>> they rust.
>> 
>> ;)
>> 
>> I just spent a nice day today at a fly-in for nitro and electric
>> helicopter models.  It was a nice day of about 64-67F and I spent
>> about 5 hours in the 45-degree N latitude sun.  Horrible sunburn I'm
>> sitting here suffering from, right now!  (I get 2nd degree burns in 15
>> minutes in LA, by the way.  I need the cloud cover!)
>
>That's the Irish/Swedish genes in you I guess. Mine are mostly German 
>but I don't get sunburn easily, I just become darker and darker. Hmm, 
>maybe I've got some other genes in me that nobody remembers ...

I might be a bit more of a mutt than I know about, too.  But I have
the near transparent skin you'd expect of those needing vitamin D
production in their skins in regions north of the arctic circle.  :)
In high school, back when there wasn't an "invisible man" that the
biology class could use, I got trotted up so kids could see all the
veins!  Embarrassing.  ;)

Jon

On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 09:09:13 -0700, Joerg
<n...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

>Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
>> On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 08:36:57 -0700, Joerg
>> <n...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:23:42 -0700, Joerg
>>>> <n...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:42:27 -0700, Joerg
>>>>>> <n...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello All,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> After some problems a client saw I was treated to my own dose of what is 
>>>>>>> likely flash loss: The uC in our mailbox door has become erratic. I 
>>>>>>> installed it about three months ago and half of the day it receives a 
>>>>>>> good pelting from the sun. First it began not recognizing some keys, 
>>>>>>> then it started doing weird stuff like lock cycling. Things it wasn't 
>>>>>>> meant to ever do. Batteries, contacts and such look ok, reset didn't 
>>>>>>> help, so that's not it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TI has an app note about the topic:
>>>>>>> http://focus.ti.com/lit/an/slaa392/slaa392.pdf
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Figure 1 looks scary above the 80C range. Later they presented another 
>>>>>>> test with a different bake cycle which makes things look better but who 
>>>>>>> knows.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What is you experience with respect to flash errors on uC that are 
>>>>>>> exposed to elevated temperatures as most outdoors applications are?
>>>>>> I only have some small experience here with the MSP430.  It seems to
>>>>>> operate at 140C at 3V and 3.3V for the several-hour long tests I've
>>>>>> done.  But some bad experiences in storing data into the flash at that
>>>>>> temp and even at 3.3V and higher.  But I didn't need the darn thing to
>>>>>> survive all that long, either.
>>>>> Wow, problems within hours at 140C? Not cool :-(
>>>> No.  No problems, at all.  Just that I didn't run them for more than
>>>> about 5 hours at a time.  Same one ran for weeks, though, at periodic
>>>> elevated temperatures.  I was just collecting data from a rotating hot
>>>> surface and wanted to just stick the whole contraption there while it
>>>> stored a few bits of data into RAM.  The battery was the problem.
>>> However, you said "But some bad experiences in storing data into the 
>>> flash at that temp and even at 3.3V and higher."
>> 
>> Yes, I did.  I gather you want to do that.
>> 
>>>>>> I haven't read, for understanding, the data sheet you mentioned.  I
>>>>>> just downloaded it, though, and thanks for pointing it up.  I think it
>>>>>> wasn't around when I looked a few years back and I'm glad that you
>>>>>> pointed it up for me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your obvious solution is to move north about a thousand miles.  ;)
>>>>> My wife would absolutely not do that.
>>>> Oregon is absolutely beautiful!  I've got pileated woodpeckers, 4
>>>> kinds of squirrels including a flying squirrel (nocturnal), peafowl,
>>>> chickens, guinea hens, turkeys and so on -- tall 60-80 year old firs,
>>>> two kinds of ferns, rhododendrons that bloom in succession around the
>>>> place, and it looks like a lush rain-forest national forest when you
>>>> walk the paths on the property.  Lots of acres, 5000 sq ft home, 1/4
>>>> mile driveway to the house, view of the mountains, 5 minutes to a
>>>> hospital and 20 minutes to the PDX international airport, a 17 mile
>>>> well-maintained walking and horse trail that goes from 1/2 mile away
>>>> from my home to the Willamette River in Portland, and it cost me $330k
>>>> in 2002.  Prices are still low, too.  Next door has been on the block
>>>> for 2 years, is a million dollar home (tax appraisal price) with about
>>>> 4500 sq ft and 5 acres, and is being offered at $599k now.  I'm told
>>>> they'd accept under $500k.  Neighbors are wonderful, too.
>>> That sure sounds mouth-watering. But my wife likes places where there is 
>>> no winter (and now ours get colder every year ...) and I'd have a wee 
>>> problem with the property tax rates up there. 2% or more is IMHO 
>>> confiscatory. Oh, and I like proposition 13 (prop tax increase cap) in 
>>> California because I do not trust politicians enough to toss them the 
>>> keys to my bank account.
>> 
>> My place is appraised at $850k (down there, I know that is just a
>> shack but up here it's 5000 sq ft of quality, showy home and lots of
>> acres of prime hilltop land) and my property taxes are $4400/year.
>> Which is kind of high, I admit.  It's the income taxes you'll probably
>> hate.  It's a graduated rate, but I think the top rate (which applies
>> to most engineers, without even asking) is 9%.  However, no sales tax.
>> 
>
>It a similar income tax structure here in CA with the dems wanting more 
>and more and more. Luckily we now have a 2/3 majority req for tax raise, 
>thanks to the aforementioned Prop 13. We also have a sales tax on top of 
>that and it still ain't enough :-(
>
>However, you may just be lucky that you bought your house at low cost. 
>I've heard people retiring to Oregon and after buying a $400k house they 
>got socked with an $8k (!) tax bill. Oh no, not me. One really has to 
>watch it these days.

I am glad to hear that some Californians believe that kind of figure!
It might act to slightly stem the otherwise larger flood coming into
the state.  I've never seen it and especially never for something
costing $400k, though.  And I think I've lived in the most highly
taxed areas of the state so I'd like to know where exactly that
occurs, because it would be an interesting exercise to go check.

>>>> 3' of fantastic soils, 45" of rain a year nice and evenly distributed
>>>> all year 'round in a constant drizzle, and everything grows where you
>>>> throw the seed, no digging needed.  What could be better?  ;)
>>> Ah, you shouldn't have written "drizzle", my wife would hate that kind 
>>> of weather.
>> 
>> I did that on purpose.  I didn't want to make it seem too inviting.
>> Actually, I've come to appreciate the constant press of low clouds
>> overhead and the slippery feel of moist moss as you carefully walk
>> across your one year old, rotting wooden deck.
>
>In winter it's the same here. We are on a hill and often "in" the 
>clouds. Our Rottweiler used to bark them away upon approach but he gave 
>up on that. We found PreservaWood deck stain to hold up pretty well.

I'm finding myself tearing up the decking (the home is 5000 sq ft, and
the decking is about another 4000 sq ft around it) in sections,
treating the wood, replacing pieces that need replacing, and putting
things back... each and every year, just to keep apace the damage.

Designing any structure here means paying CLOSE attention to water
flows.  For example, you dare not install a window into the side of
the house in such a way that you leave a flat "lip" on the topside.
Water will collect on even a quarter-inch protrusion and will quite
simply rot out any wooden siding nearby, including cedar.  Slopes are
required everywhere -- no right angles anywhere, not even vertical
ones, when working with wooden structures.  Concrete and asphalt is
quickly covered in moss and requires pressure washing on a regular
basis (my quarter mile driveway comes to mind and is requiring yet
another long workout from me, this year.)  Life grows on rocks, glass,
and on top of life growing on top of life growing on top of life.  I
have ferns growing on my trees, and moss growing on those same trees
AND the ferns growing on them!

Moss grows on your car bumpers and rubber insulation, as well.  20
mule team boraxo, powdered zinc, and powdered iron become your friend,
though.  :)

Jon

Ian Stirling wrote:
> In sci.electronics.design Joerg <n...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>> Hello All,
>>
>> After some problems a client saw I was treated to my own dose of what is 
>> likely flash loss: The uC in our mailbox door has become erratic. I 
> 
> Though not directly related, 
> http://space.brunel.ac.uk/bitstream/2438/1385/1/JonesKenyon-SIMS-FSI-archive.pdf
> is interesting.
> (data retention at 450C)


Server not found :-(

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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Joerg wrote:

> Jim Granville wrote:
>> They do seem to be expanding use of Digikey.
>>
>> Digikey shows 4,153 Infineon items, of which 275 are Microcontrollers,
>> and of those 46 are XC8xx series.
>>
> 
> Do it again but "in stock only". Makes it dwindle down to 1209 parts. 
> IMHO the guys there need to learn about marketing.
> 
> 
>> [Just not yet the nice looking 20 pin XC864, or 64K XC878's, or
>> the Wireless Control ones above ..... too new...  - sigh...]
>>
> 
> Try to get samples out of their Bay Area office. Did that for a FET a 
> while ago. It took about 10 phone calls to get one call back. Told them 
> I'd pay whatever it takes. Nada, zilch. That taught me a lesson :-(

True, they do need a 'motivated buyer' :)

- and I'll also admit we do not currently have infineon devices in
active production designs
(but we did use their C517 & CAN devices, some years ago, and have
short-listed their MOSFETs recently... )

That said, they must be doing something right, as I see infineon are
now #1 in Industrial :

[13 June 2008 MUNICH, Germany — According to a recent study from market 
researcher Semicast (Northampton, UK), Infineon for the first time ranks 
number one in the industrial sector, ahead of STMicroelectronics and 
Renesas Technology.]

-jg

Jim Granville wrote:
> Joerg wrote:
> 
>> Jim Granville wrote:
>>> They do seem to be expanding use of Digikey.
>>>
>>> Digikey shows 4,153 Infineon items, of which 275 are Microcontrollers,
>>> and of those 46 are XC8xx series.
>>>
>>
>> Do it again but "in stock only". Makes it dwindle down to 1209 parts. 
>> IMHO the guys there need to learn about marketing.
>>
>>
>>> [Just not yet the nice looking 20 pin XC864, or 64K XC878's, or
>>> the Wireless Control ones above ..... too new...  - sigh...]
>>>
>>
>> Try to get samples out of their Bay Area office. Did that for a FET a 
>> while ago. It took about 10 phone calls to get one call back. Told 
>> them I'd pay whatever it takes. Nada, zilch. That taught me a lesson :-(
> 
> True, they do need a 'motivated buyer' :)
> 
> - and I'll also admit we do not currently have infineon devices in
> active production designs
> (but we did use their C517 & CAN devices, some years ago, and have
> short-listed their MOSFETs recently... )
> 
> That said, they must be doing something right, as I see infineon are
> now #1 in Industrial :
> 
> [13 June 2008 MUNICH, Germany — According to a recent study from market 
> researcher Semicast (Northampton, UK), Infineon for the first time ranks 
> number one in the industrial sector, ahead of STMicroelectronics and 
> Renesas Technology.]
> 

I don't trust such sources too much. What I see in my daily biz is that 
most circuits contain tons of American semiconductors, some ST because 
they often have really low prices, and passives are all over the map and 
usually not country-specific.

For jelly-bean parts pricing is everything. Guys like us spec in a 
MMBT3904 and then there are 8-10 manufacturers.

AFAIK the earnings at Infineon are still negative. Not exactly my role 
model for a successfully run semiconductor manufacturer. And, of course, 
one has to ask oneself why other companies such as National earn a 
profit. They must be doing something right.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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In sci.electronics.design Joerg <n...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
> Ian Stirling wrote:
>> In sci.electronics.design Joerg <n...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>>> Hello All,
>>>
>>> After some problems a client saw I was treated to my own dose of what is 
>>> likely flash loss: The uC in our mailbox door has become erratic. I 
>> 
>> Though not directly related, 
>> http://space.brunel.ac.uk/bitstream/2438/1385/1/JonesKenyon-SIMS-FSI-archive.pdf
>> is interesting.
>> (data retention at 450C)
> 
> 
> Server not found :-(

Oops - mispastee.
http://dspace.brunel.ac.uk/bitstream/2438/1385/1/JonesKenyon-SIMS-FSI-archive.pdf 

Ian Stirling wrote:
> In sci.electronics.design Joerg <n...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>> Ian Stirling wrote:
>>> In sci.electronics.design Joerg <n...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>>>> Hello All,
>>>>
>>>> After some problems a client saw I was treated to my own dose of what is 
>>>> likely flash loss: The uC in our mailbox door has become erratic. I 
>>> Though not directly related, 
>>> http://space.brunel.ac.uk/bitstream/2438/1385/1/JonesKenyon-SIMS-FSI-archive.pdf
>>> is interesting.
>>> (data retention at 450C)
>>
>> Server not found :-(
> 
> Oops - mispastee.
> http://dspace.brunel.ac.uk/bitstream/2438/1385/1/JonesKenyon-SIMS-FSI-archive.pdf 


Interesting, thanks. However, the house fires they mentioned will 
usually present a whole different problem. The enclosures of most things 
electronic are plastic and will have shriveled into clumps that are 
beyond recognition. With lots of other debris on top of them.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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Joerg wrote:
> That would be a start, as long as the device can still be programmed 
> after you've chucked the bootloader.

With a programmer you can.  Obviously, once the bootloader is gone you 
can't program through the '952's onboard serial port.

> IAP can increase the risk of flash corruption but not being familiar 
> with the NXP devices I don't know by how much. Nowadays most uC can 
> write flash from within a application though.

Well, you'd have to be able to, to reflash-and-switch :-)

Writing to Flash with the IAP facility is a multi-step process so there 
is some protection against runaway code.

-- 
Gordon S. Hlavenka           http://www.crashelectronics.com
          Vote Ron Paul in 2008!  Call 866-737-5066

Gordon S. Hlavenka wrote:
> Joerg wrote:
>> That would be a start, as long as the device can still be programmed 
>> after you've chucked the bootloader.
> 
> With a programmer you can.  Obviously, once the bootloader is gone you 
> can't program through the '952's onboard serial port.
> 

Or you can write your own little bootloader into your code. That how the 
MSP430 guys often do it when they don't like the one from TI.


>> IAP can increase the risk of flash corruption but not being familiar 
>> with the NXP devices I don't know by how much. Nowadays most uC can 
>> write flash from within a application though.
> 
> Well, you'd have to be able to, to reflash-and-switch :-)
> 

True :-)


> Writing to Flash with the IAP facility is a multi-step process so there 
> is some protection against runaway code.
> 


-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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