Joerg wrote:
> David Brown wrote:
>> Joerg wrote:
>>>
>>> Easy: Go to the next PC wrench shop. They'll build whatever you like. 
>>> Or order the pieces including something like this:
>>> http://store.purplus.net/miwixpprwofa.html
>>>
>>> Heck, if you'd like to go totally retro and rock-bottom cost:
>>> http://chicagocomputersupply.com/c78-00002.html
>>> IIUC it's for 20 clients so that would come to about $17 per seat. 
>>> Can't beat that I guess.
>>>
>>> I could imagine Dell losing quite a bit of revenue, starting 
>>> yesterday. $50 more for the "privilege' of not wanting Vista can push 
>>> very savvy buyers over to the local markets. Of which there are plenty.
>>>
>>> Old American saying: If you don't listen to what your customers want, 
>>> someone else will.
>>>
>>
>> I've just had a look at the Dell website.  Maybe it's different here 
>> in Norway, but the upgrade from Vista Business to XP Pro costs exactly 
>> 0 Norwegian kroner.  (It costs a bit more to upgrade Vista Ultimate to 
>> XP Pro - but that's because you have the media and a license to 
>> downgrade to Ultimate later if you want.)
>>
> 
> Business costs more.
> 
> 
>> I suppose if you are comparing prices from a Vista Home version, it 
>> will cost more, as the Vista Business license costs more.  But would 
>> you want the Home version on a business machine in the first place?
> 
> 
> Why not?
> 

I might be mixing this up a little between Vista Home vs. Business, and 
XP Home vs. Pro, but here are a few points:

Support for domains is going to be a big point for many businesses, 
along with remote management, profiles, etc.

I believe there are licence issues regarding use of virtual machines 
(either as guest or host) on the Home versions, but I don't know the 
details.  Remote access to the desktop is another issue (that applies 
more to desktops than laptops, but I find it an important convenience to 
be able to (technically and legally) connect to my desktop via VNC.

Business laptop users may want to use encrypted file systems (though 
they are probably better off keeping critical files on a USB device 
which they keep more securely than the laptop).

On XP Home (don't know about Vista), you have no way of setting and 
controlling ACLs in Explorer.  But the system still has ACLs support on 
NTFS, so it's possible to lock yourself out of your own files.

Of course, the disadvantage of Vista Business is that it doesn't come 
with solitaire.

Joerg wrote:

>There's a few more issues with this box. The power supply doesn't always 
>start. Ok, that will be one resistor and maybe one cap. But occasionally 
>it let off an evil hiss. The box contains 64MB of RAM and AFAIK can only 
>take a grand total of 128MB. The additional RAM would probably have to 
>be found in a museum.

...or eBay...

Every PC that own has a power supply from PC Power and Cooling, 
the only exceptions being where PCP&C doesn't make a PS that 
fits.  Cooler running, better built, better regulation, less
noise, more reserve power, better resistance to surges/spikes
on the power line...

David Brown wrote:
> Joerg wrote:
>> David Brown wrote:
>>> Joerg wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Easy: Go to the next PC wrench shop. They'll build whatever you 
>>>> like. Or order the pieces including something like this:
>>>> http://store.purplus.net/miwixpprwofa.html
>>>>
>>>> Heck, if you'd like to go totally retro and rock-bottom cost:
>>>> http://chicagocomputersupply.com/c78-00002.html
>>>> IIUC it's for 20 clients so that would come to about $17 per seat. 
>>>> Can't beat that I guess.
>>>>
>>>> I could imagine Dell losing quite a bit of revenue, starting 
>>>> yesterday. $50 more for the "privilege' of not wanting Vista can 
>>>> push very savvy buyers over to the local markets. Of which there are 
>>>> plenty.
>>>>
>>>> Old American saying: If you don't listen to what your customers 
>>>> want, someone else will.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I've just had a look at the Dell website.  Maybe it's different here 
>>> in Norway, but the upgrade from Vista Business to XP Pro costs 
>>> exactly 0 Norwegian kroner.  (It costs a bit more to upgrade Vista 
>>> Ultimate to XP Pro - but that's because you have the media and a 
>>> license to downgrade to Ultimate later if you want.)
>>>
>>
>> Business costs more.
>>
>>
>>> I suppose if you are comparing prices from a Vista Home version, it 
>>> will cost more, as the Vista Business license costs more.  But would 
>>> you want the Home version on a business machine in the first place?
>>
>>
>> Why not?
>>
> 
> I might be mixing this up a little between Vista Home vs. Business, and 
> XP Home vs. Pro, but here are a few points:
> 
> Support for domains is going to be a big point for many businesses, 
> along with remote management, profiles, etc.
> 
> I believe there are licence issues regarding use of virtual machines 
> (either as guest or host) on the Home versions, but I don't know the 
> details.  Remote access to the desktop is another issue (that applies 
> more to desktops than laptops, but I find it an important convenience to 
> be able to (technically and legally) connect to my desktop via VNC.
> 
> Business laptop users may want to use encrypted file systems (though 
> they are probably better off keeping critical files on a USB device 
> which they keep more securely than the laptop).
> 
> On XP Home (don't know about Vista), you have no way of setting and 
> controlling ACLs in Explorer.  But the system still has ACLs support on 
> NTFS, so it's possible to lock yourself out of your own files.
> 

OTOH look at what a regular business user does: Run some apps, connect 
to a corporate files server, print on some hallway printer, email, 
Internet. I can do all of that with XP Pro and with XP home.


> Of course, the disadvantage of Vista Business is that it doesn't come 
> with solitaire.


I have yet to find an airport where people in fancy dark suits are not 
playing solitaire on their high-faluting $2500+ laptops. So it seems 
none is running Vista Business. Or maybe none is running Vista at all ...

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

Joerg wrote:
> ....
> I have yet to find an airport where people in fancy dark suits are not
> playing solitaire on their high-faluting $2500+ laptops. So it seems
> none is running Vista Business. Or maybe none is running Vista at all ...
>

You may be closer to the truth than you think on that (noone running
Vista at all, that is).
Until recently, vistasized laptops in the shops here (Sofia, Bulgaria)
used
to cost $100 to $200 more than their similar equivalent coming with
linux.
 The cheaper laptops are around 900 to 1000 BGN (1BGN=1DM= apr.
$0.80 ), that
if they are with linux or some free DOS or whatever.
To my bewilderment I saw a few days ago a Toshiba of similar specs
with vista at well below 800 BGN... (760 IIRC). They must be desperate
to make people buy that vista thing, clearly they have a problem.

Dimiter

------------------------------------------------------
Dimiter Popoff               Transgalactic Instruments

http://www.tgi-sci.com
------------------------------------------------------
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Original message: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.arch.embedded/msg/f39da982dbb952af?dmode=source

Didi wrote:
> Joerg wrote:
>> ....
>> I have yet to find an airport where people in fancy dark suits are not
>> playing solitaire on their high-faluting $2500+ laptops. So it seems
>> none is running Vista Business. Or maybe none is running Vista at all ...
>>
> 
> You may be closer to the truth than you think on that (noone running
> Vista at all, that is).
> Until recently, vistasized laptops in the shops here (Sofia, Bulgaria)
> used
> to cost $100 to $200 more than their similar equivalent coming with
> linux.
>  The cheaper laptops are around 900 to 1000 BGN (1BGN=1DM= apr.
> $0.80 ), that
> if they are with linux or some free DOS or whatever.
> To my bewilderment I saw a few days ago a Toshiba of similar specs
> with vista at well below 800 BGN... (760 IIRC). They must be desperate
> to make people buy that vista thing, clearly they have a problem.
> 

A problem as in "one" problem? AFAICT they've got a barrage of problems, 
mostly related to compatibility. IMHO they really blew it this time.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

Joerg wrote:
> Didi wrote:
> > ......
> > They must be desperate
> > to make people buy that vista thing, clearly they have a problem.
> >
>
> A problem as in "one" problem? AFAICT they've got a barrage of problems,
> mostly related to compatibility. IMHO they really blew it this time.
>

Well I mean it as in "one" problem because this one relates to sales,
this is news to me. May be they have had such problems in the past
and solved them, I am not following them closely, but if they feel the
public is not accepting vista and they may have to scrap it - and it
looks
increasingly that way to me - then this will be the "one" problem they
will have to deal with.

Didi

------------------------------------------------------
Dimiter Popoff               Transgalactic Instruments

http://www.tgi-sci.com
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/sets/72157600228621276/

Original message: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.arch.embedded/msg/f0b70137bb9815b7?dmode=source

Joerg wrote:
> David Brown wrote:
>> Joerg wrote:
<snip>
> 
> OTOH look at what a regular business user does: Run some apps, connect 
> to a corporate files server, print on some hallway printer, email, 
> Internet. I can do all of that with XP Pro and with XP home.
> 

I suppose that's true.  It may just be what I'm used to - my experience 
with XP Home is pretty limited, but it felt like some things were 
missing.  At the office (and at home), we went from WfW 3.11 to NT4.0 
(after a brief but pleasant interlude with OS/2 3.0), then W2k (we still 
have W2k machines in daily use), then XP Pro.  We avoided the Win9x line 
almost entirely, so XP Pro was the logical progression from W2k.

> 
>> Of course, the disadvantage of Vista Business is that it doesn't come 
>> with solitaire.
> 
> 
> I have yet to find an airport where people in fancy dark suits are not 
> playing solitaire on their high-faluting $2500+ laptops. So it seems 
> none is running Vista Business. Or maybe none is running Vista at all ...
> 

They should try Vista Ultimate.  Apparently, for only a few hundred 
dollars extra, you get a poker game too.

Op Sat, 21 Jun 2008 10:15:28 +0200 schreef David Brown  
<d...@hesbynett.removethisbit.no>:
> CBFalconer wrote:
>> Guy Macon wrote:
>>> Boudewijn Dijkstra wrote:
>>>
>>>> If you need more expensive and power-hungry hardware to be able
>>>> to perform mostly the same tasks, then I cannot possibly consider
>>>> it an "upgrade". And if you really need eye-candy to prevent you
>>>> from becoming depressed, then there are IMHO better ways to spend
>>>> your money.
>>> So you are saying it's *not* a good plan to replace a two dollar
>>> deck of playing cards with a multi-thousand dollar PC running
>>> Solitaire?  What a concept! :)
>>  Are you trying to destroy the economy?  The PC requires men working
>> extensive hours preparing the solitaire software.  In turn, they
>> require other PCs, and much compilation and linking software, which
>> provide employment to system programmers, who also require PCs. Then  
>> there is the whole replacement market, handling such things as
>> memory, disk drives, etc.  The whole system is feeding people all
>> over the world.  Not to mention the MicroSnerdians.
>>  By contrast, the deck of cards requires little more than a man with
>> an axe in the woods.
>>
>
> With all these jobs being outsourced around the world, Americans should  
> be proud to support Vista - no where else could they help so many people  
> stay usefully employed doing so little real work!
>
> <http://www.vistaok.com/Vistanews/Vista-shutdown-menu--value--43-year-s-time.html>;

 From the article:
"A few years ago, cell phones are even fight looks pegged to the  
Xiangjin-time, I have Apple China and the people say that your design so  
strong, and done quickly phone ah."

Since you seem to have understood the text, maybe you can translate the  
article for those of us not familiar with machine-translated Chinese.



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Op Fri, 20 Jun 2008 23:37:07 +0200 schreef CBFalconer  
<c...@yahoo.com>:
> Guy Macon wrote:
>> Boudewijn Dijkstra wrote:
>>
>>> If you need more expensive and power-hungry hardware to be able
>>> to perform mostly the same tasks, then I cannot possibly consider
>>> it an "upgrade". And if you really need eye-candy to prevent you
>>> from becoming depressed, then there are IMHO better ways to spend
>>> your money.
>>
>> So you are saying it's *not* a good plan to replace a two dollar
>> deck of playing cards with a multi-thousand dollar PC running
>> Solitaire?  What a concept! :)
>
> Are you trying to destroy the economy?  The PC requires men working
> extensive hours preparing the solitaire software.  In turn, they
> require other PCs, and much compilation and linking software, which
> provide employment to system programmers, who also require PCs.
> Then there is the whole replacement market, handling such things as
> memory, disk drives, etc.  The whole system is feeding people all
> over the world.

Indeed!  Imagine what horrible things would happen if we were to direct  
this energy towards futile projects such as the Bulk Matter Transmitter,  
Clinical Immortality, the Human Genome Project, the Neural Amplifier, the  
Space Elevator, the Universal Translator, or any such non-sense.

> Not to mention the MicroSnerdians.

¿Que?

> By contrast, the deck of cards requires little more than a man with
> an axe in the woods.

Little as in: oil mining operations, an oil refinery, a plastics factory,  
a paper mill, a chemical plant (for paper bleaching), ink- and dye-making  
facilities, a printing press, and not to mention the infrastructure an  
facilities needed to build and maintain these plants?



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Op Fri, 20 Jun 2008 14:34:32 +0200 schreef The Real Andy  
<t...@nospam.com>:
> On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:12:54 +0200, "Boudewijn Dijkstra"
> <b...@indes.com> wrote:
>> Op Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:40:42 +0200 schreef The Real Andy
>> <t...@nospam.com>:
>>> On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 17:53:29 -0700 (PDT), rickman <g...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>> If you need more expensive and power-hungry hardware to be able to  
>> perform
>> mostly the same tasks, then I cannot possibly consider it an "upgrade".
>> And if you really need eye-candy to prevent you from becoming depressed,
>> then there are IMHO better ways to spend your money.
>>
>> So how can you say that Vista is fine?
> Sigh..... The hardware is cheaper, your microwave draws more power...

This may sound strange, but with cheaper hardware I expect to need less  
hardware or get more things done with my money.


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