CBFalconer <c...@yahoo.com> writes:

> rickman wrote:
>> Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
>>> CBFalconer wrote:
>>>
> ... snip ...
>>>
>>>> I don't consider it spam.  It is available, free, and pertinent.
>>>> Without this sort of announcement interested users will never
>>>> know it exists.
>>>
>>> I don't consider it spam either. Instead of a complete accounting
>>> of new features, Rickman might be happier with a brief
>>> announcement that alerts the reader to new material on the
>>> website. Personally, I don't care.
>> 
>> Are you and CBF OK with *any* vendor of hardware, software, tools,
>> components, boards or materials related to embedded, FPGA, DSP or
>> VHDL/ Verilog posting here to advertise their products?  The fact
>> that this software offers a free version with limited features
>> does not make it unique.  There are any number of software vendors
>> that do the same thing.  Many component manufacturers offer free
>> samples.  Even makers of tools, boards, systems and test equipment
>> will let you use their products for evaluation.
>> 
>> Is there something special about this vendor and his product?
>> 
>> Personally I feel that his posts are not on topic.  Selling and
>> marketing is not the topic of any of these groups.
>
> As far as I can tell the source is available,

But you are not allowed to look at it

<http://www.timing-diagrams.com/license.html>;

"You may not modify, reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the
TimingAnalyzer program."

> and there is no long-term commercial interest.  This puts it in the
> same classification as Linux.  He is not selling - he is offering.

..."You must buy a license to use TimingAnalyzer Standard
Edition(SE)"...

It appears to be a commercial program, free for personal,
non-commercial use only. So I agree with rickman.

-- 

John Devereux

On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 00:03:58 -0400, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:

>rickman wrote:

>> Are you and CBF OK with *any* vendor of hardware, software, tools,
>> components, boards or materials related to embedded, FPGA, DSP or VHDL/
>> Verilog posting here to advertise their products?

A salient difference is that the posts were not simply (or even mostly)
advertising but rather were part of a conversation about the features,
operation, and behaviors of a useful tool that was under development.

Boy, it sure would suck if the product development engineers from Xilinx
or Atmel or whatever would hang around here and do that, eh?

>> The fact that this
>> software offers a free version with limited features does not make it
>> unique.  There are any number of software vendors that do the same
>> thing.  Many component manufacturers offer free samples.  Even makers
>> of tools, boards, systems and test equipment will let you use their
>> products for evaluation.
>> 
>> Is there something special about this vendor and his product?

Other than soliciting and responding to community feedback?

>> Personally I feel that his posts are not on topic.  Selling and
>> marketing is not the topic of any of these groups.

Personally, I feel that the joker who keeps littering the groups with
"Spam" posts is more of a menace.

>There is something special about this vendor, if not his product. He has 
>made something on his own that he hopes is useful, and has no budget to 
>make it known. He came to us initially for advice, which he heeded 
>despite the criticism that was unfortunately necessary. If nothing else, 
>I'm happy to give him a bye.

Indeed.

-- 
Rich Webb     Norfolk, VA

On Jul 20, 1:06 am, CBFalconer <cbfalco...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> As far as I can tell the source is available, and there is no
> long-term commercial interest.  This puts it in the same
> classification as Linux.  He is not selling - he is offering.

Did you actually look at his web page?  There is nothing "open" about
this program and the only "free" is the limited capability version
licensed only for "personal or academic use", not commercial.

http://www.timing-diagrams.com/license.html

In particular,

"You must buy a license to use TimingAnalyzer Standard Edition(SE)"

and

"You may not modify, reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the
TimingAnalyzer program."


I'm not trying to bust anyone's balls.  But this guy has been
cluttering up a number of newsgroups, Yahoo groups and who knows where
else with his frequent postings.  I don't object to his making it
known that there is a new product on the market.  I get tired of
seeing his, sometimes bi-weekly, announcements that a new version is
out there.  If anyone is looking for a timing analyzer then he will
already be easy to find.  If anyone wants to know the current status
of his program he has a web site.

I just think that a lot of people, here and elsewhere, don't so much
"think" about a topic like this, they justify what they "feel".  How
would people "feel" if every vendor came here to advertise, announce
new products, new features or even just to solicit comments and
advice?  I remember awhile back there were some job postings and it
was rather contentious whether that was considered acceptable.  For
the most part people had no logical justification for wanting to allow
that sort of post.  They just tried to rationalize their feelings, "if
you were out of work, you would welcome those posts" sort of
thing.

Well my feelings are that I get tired of seeing advertising in this
group and elsewhere.  I moderate multiple Yahoo groups and have made a
real effort to exclude the spam.  Don't you think these groups would
be better served with less spam?

Rick

rickman wrote:
> CBFalconer <cbfalco...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> As far as I can tell the source is available, and there is no
>> long-term commercial interest.  This puts it in the same
>> classification as Linux.  He is not selling - he is offering.
> 
> Did you actually look at his web page?  There is nothing "open"
> about this program and the only "free" is the limited capability
> version licensed only for "personal or academic use", not
> commercial.

No, I admit I didn't.  I have limited interest in such a utility.

-- 
 [mail]: Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net) 
 [page]: <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>;
            Try the download section.

On Jul 20, 9:14 am, rickman <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 20, 1:06 am, CBFalconer <cbfalco...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > As far as I can tell the source is available, and there is no
> > long-term commercial interest.  This puts it in the same
> > classification as Linux.  He is not selling - he is offering.
>
> Did you actually look at his web page?  There is nothing "open" about
> this program and the only "free" is the limited capability version
> licensed only for "personal or academic use", not commercial.
>
> http://www.timing-diagrams.com/license.html
>
> In particular,
>
> "You must buy a license to use TimingAnalyzer Standard Edition(SE)"
>
> and
>
> "You may not modify, reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the
> TimingAnalyzer program."
>
> I'm not trying to bust anyone's balls.  But this guy has been
> cluttering up a number of newsgroups, Yahoo groups and who knows where
> else with his frequent postings.  I don't object to his making it
> known that there is a new product on the market.  I get tired of
> seeing his, sometimes bi-weekly, announcements that a new version is
> out there.  If anyone is looking for a timing analyzer then he will
> already be easy to find.  If anyone wants to know the current status
> of his program he has a web site.
>
> I just think that a lot of people, here and elsewhere, don't so much
> "think" about a topic like this, they justify what they "feel".  How
> would people "feel" if every vendor came here to advertise, announce
> new products, new features or even just to solicit comments and
> advice?  I remember awhile back there were some job postings and it
> was rather contentious whether that was considered acceptable.  For
> the most part people had no logical justification for wanting to allow
> that sort of post.  They just tried to rationalize their feelings, "if
> you were out of work, you would welcome those posts" sort of
> thing.
>
> Well my feelings are that I get tired of seeing advertising in this
> group and elsewhere.  I moderate multiple Yahoo groups and have made a
> real effort to exclude the spam.  Don't you think these groups would
> be better served with less spam?
>
> Rick


Hello All,

I'm sorry to be the cause of this debate.   Originally,  my intentions
were to find some beta testers to help me test the program and at the
same time get some visibility to potential customers.  Its hard to
find experience engineers to help.  I have been getting feedback from
users of each beta  version which has been helpful.

rickman,   Yes, I have made the announcement on other groups that I
thought were relative to digital logic timing analysis and drawing
timings.  I am not just blindly sendiing frequent postings to any
group that are not related.

But,  I will follow any newsgroup guidelines there are and will not
clutter them will frequent announcements anymore if that is considered
spam or not good practice.

Regards,
Dan

John Devereux wrote:

   ...

> But you are not allowed to look at it
> 
> <http://www.timing-diagrams.com/license.html>;
> 
> "You may not modify, reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the
> TimingAnalyzer program."
> 
>> and there is no long-term commercial interest.  This puts it in the
>> same classification as Linux.  He is not selling - he is offering.
> 
> ..."You must buy a license to use TimingAnalyzer Standard
> Edition(SE)"...
> 
> It appears to be a commercial program, free for personal,
> non-commercial use only. So I agree with rickman.

Years ago, I bought ($10) a very nice interactive star map program 
called SkyGlobe for DOS. A few years later, I got a free upgrade for 
Windows. I still use it. This stuff is shareware, and I don't think of 
it as commercial. I put TimingAnalyzer in the same category. I hope it 
hets to be as polished.

Jerry
-- 
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

timinganalyzer wrote:
> 
... snip ...
> 
> I'm sorry to be the cause of this debate.   Originally,  my
> intentions were to find some beta testers to help me test the
> program and at the same time get some visibility to potential
> customers.  Its hard to find experience engineers to help.  I
> have been getting feedback from users of each beta  version
> which has been helpful.

Don't get too excited about it.  There is always at least one
person who considers almost every announcement commercial spam. 
The real spammers know what they are.

-- 
 [mail]: Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net) 
 [page]: <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>;
            Try the download section.

timinganalyzer wrote:
> [snipping everybody's verboseness]
> 
> But,  I will follow any newsgroup guidelines there are and will not
> clutter them will frequent announcements anymore if that is considered
> spam or not good practice.
> 
> Regards,
> Dan

My only comment is your "announcements" were excessively verbose.
The evidence that they weren't considered too far OT was that you got 
responses to _content_ of your posts.

On Jul 20, 1:02 pm, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
> John Devereux wrote:
>
>    ...
>
> > But you are not allowed to look at it
>
> > <http://www.timing-diagrams.com/license.html>;
>
> > "You may not modify, reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the
> > TimingAnalyzer program."
>
> >> and there is no long-term commercial interest.  This puts it in the
> >> same classification as Linux.  He is not selling - he is offering.
>
> > ..."You must buy a license to use TimingAnalyzer Standard
> > Edition(SE)"...
>
> > It appears to be a commercial program, free for personal,
> > non-commercial use only. So I agree with rickman.
>
> Years ago, I bought ($10) a very nice interactive star map program
> called SkyGlobe for DOS. A few years later, I got a free upgrade for
> Windows. I still use it. This stuff is shareware, and I don't think of
> it as commercial. I put TimingAnalyzer in the same category. I hope it
> hets to be as polished.

You paid for something, but it is "not commercial".  If you bought it
for DOS, I would guess that inflation makes it about equivalent to $20
to $30 now.  Jerry, you have a very unique definition of
"commercial".

Rick

On Jul 20, 10:38 am, timinganalyzer <timinganaly...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 20, 9:14 am, rickman <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 20, 1:06 am, CBFalconer <cbfalco...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > As far as I can tell the source is available, and there is no
> > > long-term commercial interest.  This puts it in the same
> > > classification as Linux.  He is not selling - he is offering.
>
> > Did you actually look at his web page?  There is nothing "open" about
> > this program and the only "free" is the limited capability version
> > licensed only for "personal or academic use", not commercial.
>
> >http://www.timing-diagrams.com/license.html
>
> > In particular,
>
> > "You must buy a license to use TimingAnalyzer Standard Edition(SE)"
>
> > and
>
> > "You may not modify, reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the
> > TimingAnalyzer program."
>
> > I'm not trying to bust anyone's balls.  But this guy has been
> > cluttering up a number of newsgroups, Yahoo groups and who knows where
> > else with his frequent postings.  I don't object to his making it
> > known that there is a new product on the market.  I get tired of
> > seeing his, sometimes bi-weekly, announcements that a new version is
> > out there.  If anyone is looking for a timing analyzer then he will
> > already be easy to find.  If anyone wants to know the current status
> > of his program he has a web site.
>
> > I just think that a lot of people, here and elsewhere, don't so much
> > "think" about a topic like this, they justify what they "feel".  How
> > would people "feel" if every vendor came here to advertise, announce
> > new products, new features or even just to solicit comments and
> > advice?  I remember awhile back there were some job postings and it
> > was rather contentious whether that was considered acceptable.  For
> > the most part people had no logical justification for wanting to allow
> > that sort of post.  They just tried to rationalize their feelings, "if
> > you were out of work, you would welcome those posts" sort of
> > thing.
>
> > Well my feelings are that I get tired of seeing advertising in this
> > group and elsewhere.  I moderate multiple Yahoo groups and have made a
> > real effort to exclude the spam.  Don't you think these groups would
> > be better served with less spam?
>
> > Rick
>
> Hello All,
>
> I'm sorry to be the cause of this debate.   Originally,  my intentions
> were to find some beta testers to help me test the program and at the
> same time get some visibility to potential customers.  Its hard to
> find experience engineers to help.  I have been getting feedback from
> users of each beta  version which has been helpful.
>
> rickman,   Yes, I have made the announcement on other groups that I
> thought were relative to digital logic timing analysis and drawing
> timings.  I am not just blindly sendiing frequent postings to any
> group that are not related.
>
> But,  I will follow any newsgroup guidelines there are and will not
> clutter them will frequent announcements anymore if that is considered
> spam or not good practice.
>
> Regards,
> Dan

Dan,

Please don't worry about it.  Although I am saying that I think the
posts are not appropriate for these groups (I can't say about the ones
I don't frequent), I'm certainly not saying you are a bad person or
that your product is bad.  I'm really just trying to make a point.
This happened a while back when someone posted an advert about a job
and a long controversy erupted when someone called is spam.

I only posted about it because I have seen your posts frequently in
time and see them in some three or four groups that I read.  But you
have said that you won't continue doing that and I am happy with that
response.  I wish you good luck with your program and when I have more
time I may take another look at it.

At this point I just think that some people are taking absurd stances
and I am trying to pin them down so they can see what they are really
saying.  Or maybe I will see that I am not making sense.  Either way,
this discussion is not really about you any more.  So don't sweat
it!

Rick