Thanks a lot.
The links helped. Looks like I'm tied to either 27MHz or 35MHz band.
If anyone knows of a radio module that can operate at those bands
please let me know.
Cheers, Stefan
paul$@pcserv.demon.co.uk (Paul Carpenter) wrote in message
> Look at International frequencies and their sources of information on
> the site <http://www.ukrcc.org/>, these may help you.
>
> This page may help you but does not list Germany, but list most countries
> and is the Federation Aeronautique Internationale or part of Commission
> International of Aero Modeling (CIAM)
>
> <http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/frequencies/>
>
> For Germany this site might be useful <http://www.daec.de/> in German only.
>
> >Does anyone know of a serial radio module that operates in the 27MHz
> >or 35MHz band?
> >(The 40MHz band is unfortunatelly only for land and water models).
>
> You are unlikely to find data modules specifically for these bands as
> they generally PPM or PCM where the PCM is specific to radio control
> by the Radio Control manufacturers. Unfortunately unles you find
> someone with a multi-band module that covers the 35MHz band your are
> going to find it difficult to find one meant for that band.
>
> You may be able to find a radio control transmitter that can be modified
> to input your own data stream via suitable lowpass filter. The receiver
> may be more difficult.
Reply by Paul Carpenter●July 11, 20042004-07-11
On 10 Jul, in article
<e33936f6.0407101254.1733b7b9@posting.google.com>
news@stefan-strobl.de "Stefan" wrote:
>Thanks Paul,
>
>I found the document. Looking at it, it seems that the 458MHz band is
>most suited for helicopter control. I am not very sure but it looks
>like as if the 458MHz band is not allowed in other european countries.
Look at International frequencies and their sources of information on
the site <http://www.ukrcc.org/>, these may help you.
This page may help you but does not list Germany, but list most countries
and is the Federation Aeronautique Internationale or part of Commission
International of Aero Modeling (CIAM)
<http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/frequencies/>
For Germany this site might be useful <http://www.daec.de/> in German only.
>Does anyone know of a serial radio module that operates in the 27MHz
>or 35MHz band?
>(The 40MHz band is unfortunatelly only for land and water models).
You are unlikely to find data modules specifically for these bands as
they generally PPM or PCM where the PCM is specific to radio control
by the Radio Control manufacturers. Unfortunately unles you find
someone with a multi-band module that covers the 35MHz band your are
going to find it difficult to find one meant for that band.
You may be able to find a radio control transmitter that can be modified
to input your own data stream via suitable lowpass filter. The receiver
may be more difficult.
I would check for the country you have in mind from its regulators what
can be done in the 459MHz band.
433MHz band is a pan-European (possibly global) telemetry band you can
use for feedback as it is telemetry.
--
Paul Carpenter | paul@pcserv.demon.co.uk
<http://www.pcserv.demon.co.uk/> Main Site
<http://www.gnuh8.org.uk/> GNU H8 & mailing list info.
<http://www.badweb.org.uk/> For those web sites you hate.
Reply by Stefan●July 10, 20042004-07-10
Thanks Paul,
I found the document. Looking at it, it seems that the 458MHz band is
most suited for helicopter control. I am not very sure but it looks
like as if the 458MHz band is not allowed in other european countries.
Does anyone know of a serial radio module that operates in the 27MHz
or 35MHz band?
(The 40MHz band is unfortunatelly only for land and water models).
Thanks,
Stefan
paul$@pcserv.demon.co.uk (Paul Carpenter) wrote in message
> The relevant table (in my copy) is Table 2.20 on page 26, part of which is
> below:-
> Categories Frequencies or Radiated Channel Music or
> Frequency Band level Bandwidth speech
> permitted
> i 26.96 - 27.28 MHz 100 mW 10 kHz No
> ii 34.995 - 35.255 MHz 100 mW 10 kHz No
> iii 40.66 - 41.00 MHz 100 mW 10 kHz No
> iv 433.05 - 434.79 MHz 10 mW 25 kHz No
> v 458.5 - 459.5 MHz 100 mW 25 kHz No
>
> Any duty cycle is permitted
>
> Reference Standard EN 300 220-1
>
> You will find the main users of 27MHz are in cheap toys usually made in China
> for a world markets. Also nobody uses 27MHz unless they really have to,
> because of the many other adjacent and conflicting devices, even CB radio.
> These cheap toys have BINARY control controls.
>
> 459MHz is also allowed for any model, and gives a wider channel bandwidth
> allowing better bit rates 4800bps becomes possible.
>
> 433Mhz is only very low power for telemetry back and reduces range for
> anyone wanting to do communications feedback to control system.
Reply by Jim Stewart●July 8, 20042004-07-08
George Neuner wrote:
> On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:28:27 +0300, Paul Keinanen <keinanen@sci.fi>
> wrote:
>
>
>>What is the price of a dead person ?
>>
>
>
> In general, much less than the price of a live person with an injury.
Exactly,
Militarily speaking, a dead person is a -1, an
injured person is a -3 (the injured and 2 to
take care of him). At least that's what they
told me in basic training.
Reply by George Neuner●July 8, 20042004-07-08
On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:28:27 +0300, Paul Keinanen <keinanen@sci.fi>
wrote:
>
>What is the price of a dead person ?
>
In general, much less than the price of a live person with an injury.
George
--
for email reply remove "/" from address
Reply by Vadim Borshchev●July 8, 20042004-07-08
On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 23:06:13 +0000 (UTC), Paul Carpenter
<paul$@pcserv.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On Wednesday, in article
<btgne05660hosuh4qvnbvgvs3rloqfgf68@4ax.com>
dmmilne_removethis_@ozemail.com.au "dmm" wrote:
>On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:05:02 +0000 (UTC), paul$@pcserv.demon.co.uk (Paul
> Carpenter) wrote:
>
>>On 6 Jul, in article
>> <b2278688.0407060831.57d4cfdc@posting.google.com>
>> me@linnix.info-for.us "Linnix" wrote:
>>
>>>Paul Keinanen <keinanen@sci.fi> wrote in message
>>> news:<g1kke09t8dm5httfnt0to8ca5s290najpu@4ax.com>...
>>>> On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:31:06 +0200, "Raider of the Lost Electron"
>>>> <invalid@spam.no> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >I should contain everything you will need for your telemetry/control of the
>>>> >helicopter. (The 433MHz band in Europe is fairly open - but you will need
> to
>>>> >check with the appropriate rules regarding control of toys)
>>>>
>>>> IMHO, anybody trying to use a shared frequency band for _control_ of a
>>>> model aircraft or other flying device should be put behind bars to
>>>> think what he/she is doing !!
>>>
>>>You can't put someone in jail just for thinking of trying something.
>>>He might own the entire 400 meters air and ground space. Even if he
>>>carry out the experiment and did some damages, he should be responsible
>>>financially. If he did not intend to cost such damage, he should not
>>>be in jail.
>>
>>There has been at least one court case after inquest in the UK of
>>model aircraft losing control and killing a small boy.
>
>If you are referring to the accident in April 2003 on Dartford Heath in Kent
>then the model was unsafe to fly in the first place and it had nothing to do
>with the quality of the radio equipment. It was the structural airframe that
> failed.
No there was an earlier ibncident, as I read it originally around
2001/2002, after it had concluded. That case was control failure as they
specifically stated it should have had a failsafe on it.
The reason I know it was before 2003 is because a particular hardware design
was finished long before April 2003, for which I was doing research at the
time.
>And it was a girl.
In that particular incident I do remember it being a boy.
>>There is a web page about it on the Radio Control Modelling group site.
On Wednesday, in article <opsarkfzg7y1ubid@news>
vadim.borshchev@127.0.0.1 "Vadim Borshchev" wrote:
>On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:04:59 +0000 (UTC), Paul Carpenter
><paul$@pcserv.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>> As the OP wants to fly his model in the UK, it would be worth mentioning
>>> that Ofcom, the UK regulating body, has a dedicated band around 35 MHz
>>> for
>> ^^^^^^
>> Flying Gadgets MUST use 70MHz band, 40MHz is for land/water toys.
>
>Any link? The document I've pointed to (RA60) says "The 35 MHz is
>dedicated solely to aeronautical modelling."
Damn should not post late at night like now, after checking documents
and putting wrong thing. You are right about 35MHz and not as I WRONGLY put
70MHz. Don't know what I was thinking there, so I am double checking my
points and have multiple documents open at the same time to be sure this time!
> I couldn't find IR2030
>document on the Ofcom site.
IR2030 is the more detailed document by band usage titled
UK Radio Interface Requirement 2030
Short Range Devices
My copy is dated as a PDF from 5th January 2001, originally from
www.radio.gov.uk (Radio Communications Agency) before the recent amalgamation
of the various agencies under OfCom. This is for various bands not just
models and includes all sorts of telemetry band details.
Ofcom website details about all Short range device bands (helps for sorting
out what might also be using part of same band or close by) is referenced
in RA114:-
<http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archive/ra/publication/ra_info/ra114.htm>
Helpfully this is supposed to be on the www.radio.gov.uk site according to
the document, but that site points you back to www.ofcom.org.uk :-((
They have not got all their links updated yet.
However there is a Low Power RA Archive section that contains:-
<http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archive/ra/publication/interface/word-pdf/ir2030v1-2.pdf>
It is only about 80KB so i can email it if you want.
The relevant table (in my copy) is Table 2.20 on page 26, part of which is
below:-
Categories Frequencies or Radiated Channel Music or
Frequency Band level Bandwidth speech
permitted
i 26.96 - 27.28 MHz 100 mW 10 kHz No
ii 34.995 - 35.255 MHz 100 mW 10 kHz No
iii 40.66 - 41.00 MHz 100 mW 10 kHz No
iv 433.05 - 434.79 MHz 10 mW 25 kHz No
v 458.5 - 459.5 MHz 100 mW 25 kHz No
Any duty cycle is permitted
Reference Standard EN 300 220-1
>I am also curious because my son is tempting me to buy a helicopter. The
>last time I asked in the model shop the bands were 40 MHz for surface, 35
>for air and 27 for any model.
You will find the main users of 27MHz are in cheap toys usually made in China
for a world markets. Also nobody uses 27MHz unless they really have to,
because of the many other adjacent and conflicting devices, even CB radio.
These cheap toys have BINARY control controls.
459MHz is also allowed for any model, and gives a wider channel bandwidth
allowing better bit rates 4800bps becomes possible.
433Mhz is only very low power for telemetry back and reduces range for
anyone wanting to do communications feedback to control system.
--
Paul Carpenter | paul@pcserv.demon.co.uk
<http://www.pcserv.demon.co.uk/> Main Site
<http://www.gnuh8.org.uk/> GNU H8 & mailing list info.
<http://www.badweb.org.uk/> For those web sites you hate.
Reply by Linnix●July 7, 20042004-07-07
Paul Keinanen <keinanen@sci.fi> wrote in message news:<22qle0pigmugemh0giacdeiruv2glc1g0h@4ax.com>...
> On 6 Jul 2004 09:31:24 -0700, me@linnix.info-for.us (Linnix) wrote:
>
> >You can't put someone in jail just for thinking of trying something.
>
> Like drinking a bottle of whisky and then driving around in a car
> without brakes :-).
That's fine if he is driving in his own land without anybody around.
>
> >He might own the entire 400 meters air and ground space.
>
> Depending of the sped of the model aircraft, it does not require a
> long communication failure to fly outside even this area. 10-40 s
> should be enough.
A well designed system should have emergency homing system and/or GPS.
>
> The situation for a model helicopter may be different _if_ the
> helicopter goes into a autoratoation mode upon loss of command link
> and lands more or less intact close to the point of communication link
> failure.
What if he is testing communication link/control in high interfence
situations?
>
> >Even if he
> >carry out the experiment and did some damages, he should be responsible
> >financially.
>
> What is the price of a dead person ?
Depends on how that person got into the test area.
>
> >If he did not intend to cost such damage, he should not
> >be in jail.
>
> I think "criminal negligence" is term used in the US.
Depends on the circumstances. Appearancely, you already found him
guilty and handled down your sentense without any considerations.
>
> My point is, why use a risky method, when there are other methods
> considered to be more safe (frequencies allocated for model aircraft
> control) ?
Risk assessment is very subjective. Tell the Wright Brothers not to
fly when driving is just as good.
>
> Paul
Reply by Vadim Borshchev●July 7, 20042004-07-07
On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:04:59 +0000 (UTC), Paul Carpenter
<paul$@pcserv.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> As the OP wants to fly his model in the UK, it would be worth mentioning
>> that Ofcom, the UK regulating body, has a dedicated band around 35 MHz
>> for
> ^^^^^^
> Flying Gadgets MUST use 70MHz band, 40MHz is for land/water toys.
Any link? The document I've pointed to (RA60) says "The 35 MHz is
dedicated solely to aeronautical modelling." I couldn't find IR2030
document on the Ofcom site.
I am also curious because my son is tempting me to buy a helicopter. The
last time I asked in the model shop the bands were 40 MHz for surface, 35
for air and 27 for any model.
Vadim