> I suppose there are people with similar experiences with PIC
> chips. In another 5 years there may be people who can tell
> the same story about ARM chips.
To be fair Microchip has provided very good customer support.
They too have found a way to make the needs of their
customers happen. In doing so they have found a business
niche supporting a large number of small volume customers that
some of the other semiconductor companies ignored for
several years
Walter Banks
Byte Craft Limited
Reply by 1 Lucky Texan●February 23, 20102010-02-23
On Feb 22, 11:29=A0pm, Mark Borgerson <mborger...@comcast.net> wrote:
> In article <4B832D94.16328...@bytecraft.com>, wal...@bytecraft.com
> says...
>
>
>
> > Tim Wescott wrote:
>
> > > * I will cherish that conversation forever:
>
> > > "I need these parts, I designed them in, trusting you to come through=
,
> > > and now my Whole Company Will Die if you don't sell me some!"
>
> > > "I sympathize with your plight, sir, but Ford needs 10000 of those ne=
xt
> > > month, and we just don't have enough for them, even -- and they're FO=
RD!"
>
> > > "10000?!? =A0I just need 100 for a whole YEAR! (snivel, snivel)"
>
> > > "Oh, 100? =A0They'll never notice (ticki ticki tap) -- there you are,=
100
> > > on the way!".
>
> > > They turned from my Favorite Semiconductor Company to my Very Favorit=
e
> > > Ever Semiconductor Company that day -- then they went and spun the wh=
ole
> > > division off...
>
> > Tim,
>
> > During, the Motorola shortage I was presenter at a motorola
> > retreat on new products. Over drinks late one afternoon I was
> > talking to a Mot VP who explained that when a automotive
> > VP calls you in and takes you to the window of his office
> > and points to a parking lot filled with new cars as far as the
> > eye can see and explains that just one mot part is needed
> > so they can be shipped.
>
> > Now says he, "That's pressure!"
>
> > I agree mot used to be very good. I could always get a few
> > parts for my customers with a phone call.
>
> Besides an occasional helping hand, Moto puts out parts that
> have amazing longevity. =A0I'm still writing code and building
> boards for 68332 systems. =A0That part was mature when I started
> my business 12 years ago. =A0 Other chips and other projects have
> made me more money, but the 68332 systems have always sold enough
> boards =A0to pay the rent and utiliities.
>
> I suppose there are people with similar experiences with PIC
> chips. =A0In another 5 years there may be people who can tell
> the same story about ARM chips.
>
> Mark Borgerson
I JUST got thru customizing some 80C85 boards (STD) for a customer.
But it is getting difficult to support a lot of the really old stuff.
Reply by Mark Borgerson●February 23, 20102010-02-23
In article <4B832D94.16328CEE@bytecraft.com>, walter@bytecraft.com
says...
>
>
> Tim Wescott wrote:
>
> > * I will cherish that conversation forever:
> >
> > "I need these parts, I designed them in, trusting you to come through,
> > and now my Whole Company Will Die if you don't sell me some!"
> >
> > "I sympathize with your plight, sir, but Ford needs 10000 of those next
> > month, and we just don't have enough for them, even -- and they're FORD!"
> >
> > "10000?!? I just need 100 for a whole YEAR! (snivel, snivel)"
> >
> > "Oh, 100? They'll never notice (ticki ticki tap) -- there you are, 100
> > on the way!".
> >
> > They turned from my Favorite Semiconductor Company to my Very Favorite
> > Ever Semiconductor Company that day -- then they went and spun the whole
> > division off...
>
> Tim,
>
> During, the Motorola shortage I was presenter at a motorola
> retreat on new products. Over drinks late one afternoon I was
> talking to a Mot VP who explained that when a automotive
> VP calls you in and takes you to the window of his office
> and points to a parking lot filled with new cars as far as the
> eye can see and explains that just one mot part is needed
> so they can be shipped.
>
> Now says he, "That's pressure!"
>
> I agree mot used to be very good. I could always get a few
> parts for my customers with a phone call.
>
Besides an occasional helping hand, Moto puts out parts that
have amazing longevity. I'm still writing code and building
boards for 68332 systems. That part was mature when I started
my business 12 years ago. Other chips and other projects have
made me more money, but the 68332 systems have always sold enough
boards to pay the rent and utiliities.
I suppose there are people with similar experiences with PIC
chips. In another 5 years there may be people who can tell
the same story about ARM chips.
Mark Borgerson
Reply by Walter Banks●February 22, 20102010-02-22
Tim Wescott wrote:
> * I will cherish that conversation forever:
>
> "I need these parts, I designed them in, trusting you to come through,
> and now my Whole Company Will Die if you don't sell me some!"
>
> "I sympathize with your plight, sir, but Ford needs 10000 of those next
> month, and we just don't have enough for them, even -- and they're FORD!"
>
> "10000?!? I just need 100 for a whole YEAR! (snivel, snivel)"
>
> "Oh, 100? They'll never notice (ticki ticki tap) -- there you are, 100
> on the way!".
>
> They turned from my Favorite Semiconductor Company to my Very Favorite
> Ever Semiconductor Company that day -- then they went and spun the whole
> division off...
Tim,
During, the Motorola shortage I was presenter at a motorola
retreat on new products. Over drinks late one afternoon I was
talking to a Mot VP who explained that when a automotive
VP calls you in and takes you to the window of his office
and points to a parking lot filled with new cars as far as the
eye can see and explains that just one mot part is needed
so they can be shipped.
Now says he, "That's pressure!"
I agree mot used to be very good. I could always get a few
parts for my customers with a phone call.
Walter Banks
Byte Craft Limited
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---
Reply by Peter Seldon●February 22, 20102010-02-22
"D Yuniskis" wrote...
>> You want better. I agree. And they are in a far better
>> position to spread out the costs of producing more complete
>
> Exactly. AND THIS IS THEIR PRODUCT (i.e., the documentation)
> JUST LIKE THE SILICON ITSELF!
Well-said!
Reply by Peter Seldon●February 22, 20102010-02-22
"Tim Wescott" wrote...
> Peter Seldon wrote:
>> "D Yuniskis" wrote...
>>
>>>> I like this one. What sort of commitments are you talking about?
>>> Wanna buy a Z380? :>
>>>
>>
>>> I.e., I expect a vendor to cater to a (known) bigger client
>>> more promptly (allocation, etc.) than a small fish. But, I
>>> expect him to meet those commitments (that *he* is defining!)
>>> equally.
>>
>> But, very often, that small fish that was snubbed by the vendor yesterday will work
>> for a huge fish tomorrow, and he will remember the snub.
>>
>> This happens a lot - a LOT! I've seen it four times in my career.
>>
>> We hired a new VP of Engineering that used to work for a small company that got
>> screwed royally, then ignored by a MCU vendor. He now works for us, and we are
>> massive numbers out the door each year.
>>
>> That same MCU vendor kissed our VP's ass and the vendor is frantically parachuting
>> high-level executives into our office. But the new VP is determined to remove all
>> that vendor's MCUs from all our designs.
>>
>> TI, Freescale, and Zilog don't understand that this can happen. Microchip does.
>
> Motorola understood -- they were very nice to me when I was a grad student looking for
> qty 1 parts, and when I was a fresh engineer looking for 100 or so of a part that was
> on allocation to Ford*.
>
> But when they turned into FreeFall Semiconductor, they lost that.
>
> * I will cherish that conversation forever:
>
> "I need these parts, I designed them in, trusting you to come through, and now my
> Whole Company Will Die if you don't sell me some!"
>
> "I sympathize with your plight, sir, but Ford needs 10000 of those next month, and we
> just don't have enough for them, even -- and they're FORD!"
>
> "10000?!? I just need 100 for a whole YEAR! (snivel, snivel)"
>
> "Oh, 100? They'll never notice (ticki ticki tap) -- there you are, 100 on the way!".
>
> They turned from my Favorite Semiconductor Company to my Very Favorite Ever
> Semiconductor Company that day -- then they went and spun the whole division off...
>
> --
> Tim Wescott
Very nice... I like that.
When Motorola became FreeFall (Freescale), their top management has been constantly
locked in petty and vicious backstabbing office politics that has had a horrible effect
on new product development and killed morale.
Reply by Tim Wescott●February 22, 20102010-02-22
Peter Seldon wrote:
> "D Yuniskis" wrote...
>
>>> I like this one. What sort of commitments are you talking about?
>> Wanna buy a Z380? :>
>>
>
>> I.e., I expect a vendor to cater to a (known) bigger client
>> more promptly (allocation, etc.) than a small fish. But, I
>> expect him to meet those commitments (that *he* is defining!)
>> equally.
>
> But, very often, that small fish that was snubbed by the vendor yesterday will work for
> a huge fish tomorrow, and he will remember the snub.
>
> This happens a lot - a LOT! I've seen it four times in my career.
>
> We hired a new VP of Engineering that used to work for a small company that got screwed
> royally, then ignored by a MCU vendor. He now works for us, and we are massive numbers
> out the door each year.
>
> That same MCU vendor kissed our VP's ass and the vendor is frantically parachuting
> high-level executives into our office. But the new VP is determined to remove all that
> vendor's MCUs from all our designs.
>
> TI, Freescale, and Zilog don't understand that this can happen. Microchip does.
Motorola understood -- they were very nice to me when I was a grad
student looking for qty 1 parts, and when I was a fresh engineer looking
for 100 or so of a part that was on allocation to Ford*.
But when they turned into FreeFall Semiconductor, they lost that.
* I will cherish that conversation forever:
"I need these parts, I designed them in, trusting you to come through,
and now my Whole Company Will Die if you don't sell me some!"
"I sympathize with your plight, sir, but Ford needs 10000 of those next
month, and we just don't have enough for them, even -- and they're FORD!"
"10000?!? I just need 100 for a whole YEAR! (snivel, snivel)"
"Oh, 100? They'll never notice (ticki ticki tap) -- there you are, 100
on the way!".
They turned from my Favorite Semiconductor Company to my Very Favorite
Ever Semiconductor Company that day -- then they went and spun the whole
division off...
--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com
Reply by Peter Seldon●February 22, 20102010-02-22
"D Yuniskis" wrote...
>> I like this one. What sort of commitments are you talking about?
>
> Wanna buy a Z380? :>
>
> I.e., I expect a vendor to cater to a (known) bigger client
> more promptly (allocation, etc.) than a small fish. But, I
> expect him to meet those commitments (that *he* is defining!)
> equally.
But, very often, that small fish that was snubbed by the vendor yesterday will work for
a huge fish tomorrow, and he will remember the snub.
This happens a lot - a LOT! I've seen it four times in my career.
We hired a new VP of Engineering that used to work for a small company that got screwed
royally, then ignored by a MCU vendor. He now works for us, and we are massive numbers
out the door each year.
That same MCU vendor kissed our VP's ass and the vendor is frantically parachuting
high-level executives into our office. But the new VP is determined to remove all that
vendor's MCUs from all our designs.
TI, Freescale, and Zilog don't understand that this can happen. Microchip does.
Reply by Jon Kirwan●January 19, 20102010-01-19
On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 23:27:35 +1100, Nicholas King
<ze@zerandconsulting.com> wrote:
>On 01/19/2010 07:41 AM, Jon Kirwan wrote:
>> Ah. On this last point, I'll make a side comment. Both TI's
>> MSP430 line and Microchip's PIC line(s) have silicon bugs.
>> The big difference I see between them is that Microchip
>> _fixes_ their silicon bugs. You can see that in the
>> subsequent errata sheets on steppings of their parts. While
>> TI_never_ seems to fix theirs. Simply documents them. Now
>> this isn't hard and fast, as I haven't done an exhaustive
>> evaluation across all the various instances at both
>> companies. But on the parts I've used from each, it's the
>> case.
>When it comes to Microchip PIC lines. The experience I had with them
>wasn't very satisfactory. One part was one of their PIC32 parts.
I've never used the PIC32, so that may explain some of our
different experiences.
>2-3
>years after a part was released and 5 or 6 revisions later, it still
>didn't meet anywhere near the specs published for the internals A-D
>converters , yet they were still advertised with the bogus specs.
Sounds bad.
>I've had other problems with other parts of theirs as well. Furthermore
>whilst they do fix some bugs , they keep producing the buggy versions
>and shipping them years after they've fixed them so it's pot luck
>whether you get the good or bad versions.
So far, my experience has been positive in that regard. But
I accept your experiences, too.
>I've got a few simple requirements of a vendor. I want them to meet
>their own commitments and that includes supplying a quality product and
>not an inferior version years after they've fixed some bugs in the good
>version. If they make a mistake it should be on their dime and not on
>mine. If they won't put it on their dimes voluntarily then I won't give
>them my dimes.
I still haven't found an alternative nearly as consistent in
their support of old tools and cpus. I'm very interested in
hearing about other companies, where there is a few decades'
experience behind it, that do anywhere near as well. I'd
like to have some good alternatives.
Jon
Reply by Nicholas King●January 19, 20102010-01-19
On 01/19/2010 07:41 AM, Jon Kirwan wrote:
> Ah. On this last point, I'll make a side comment. Both TI's
> MSP430 line and Microchip's PIC line(s) have silicon bugs.
> The big difference I see between them is that Microchip
> _fixes_ their silicon bugs. You can see that in the
> subsequent errata sheets on steppings of their parts. While
> TI_never_ seems to fix theirs. Simply documents them. Now
> this isn't hard and fast, as I haven't done an exhaustive
> evaluation across all the various instances at both
> companies. But on the parts I've used from each, it's the
> case.
When it comes to Microchip PIC lines. The experience I had with them
wasn't very satisfactory. One part was one of their PIC32 parts. 2-3
years after a part was released and 5 or 6 revisions later, it still
didn't meet anywhere near the specs published for the internals A-D
converters , yet they were still advertised with the bogus specs.
I've had other problems with other parts of theirs as well. Furthermore
whilst they do fix some bugs , they keep producing the buggy versions
and shipping them years after they've fixed them so it's pot luck
whether you get the good or bad versions.
I've got a few simple requirements of a vendor. I want them to meet
their own commitments and that includes supplying a quality product and
not an inferior version years after they've fixed some bugs in the good
version. If they make a mistake it should be on their dime and not on
mine. If they won't put it on their dimes voluntarily then I won't give
them my dimes.