In message <op.vvzziadwlzeukk@jellix.jlfencey.com>, Vinzent Hoefler
<0439279208b62c95f1880bf0f8776eeb@t-domaingrabbing.de> writes
>Chris H wrote:
>
>> All systems MISRA is aimed at have IO... It is just that most don't have
>> screens.
>
>Depends on what you count as I/O. Of course, any electric wire going in or
>out the MCU are technically I/O.

They are IO... not just "technically" comparatively few computers have
screens.

>But I don't think, I could drive a PWM-signal with the facilities of
><stdio.h>. ;)

printf is essential :-)

-- 
Support Sarah Palin for the next US President
Go Palin! Go Palin! Go Palin!
In God We Trust! Rapture Ready!!!
http://www.sarahpac.com/

Chris H wrote:

> All systems MISRA is aimed at have IO... It is just that most don't have
> screens.

Depends on what you count as I/O. Of course, any electric wire going in or
out the MCU are technically I/O.

But I don't think, I could drive a PWM-signal with the facilities of
<stdio.h>. ;)

Vinzent.

-- 
A C program is like a fast dance on a newly waxed dance floor by people carrying
razors.
   --  Waldi Ravens

In message <irh2ne.10s.1@stefan.msgid.phost.de>, Stefan Reuther
<stefan.news@arcor.de> writes
>Vinzent Hoefler wrote:
>> Stefan Reuther wrote:
>> Maybe original MISRA wasn't intended for systems which even had I/O. ;)
>
>Indeed, many of the rules make much more sense if you have an engine
>control unit in mind, not an infotainment device with a megapixel screen
>and a few Gigs of flash.

All systems MISRA is aimed at have IO... It is just that most don't have
screens.


-- 
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Vinzent Hoefler wrote:
> Stefan Reuther wrote:
>>>> Actually, I haven't ever had a bug regarding to those two. (However, I
>>>> already had a couple of functions where I added a comment "yes, I'm
>>>> really using '|' on bools here because I want both paths", to reduce
>>>> that "oops, shouldn't there be two of them" feeling.)
>>>
>>> I wasn't talking about writing the code. I was talking about reading it.
>>
>> At least I'm well-conditioned enough to immediately question a construct
>> having just "|" in a boolean context. Hence the comments.
> 
> Well, that's surely a plus of having to work in only one language mostly,
> but when you're forced to adapt your mind from Python to Perl to Ada, back
> to Java and then to C again, conditioning the mind for each potentially
> questionable construct of every one of those languages is not that easy.

I do less Pascal than I used to do, but I'm switching from C to C++ to
Assemblers to Perl to Lisp to Javascript to Lua to Shell, that's not an
issue :)

>> We're doing C++. MISRA C++ outlaws functions that return *this or a
>> reference parameter. That is, it outlaws all implementations of
>> iostreams. It outlaws <stdio.h> (use <cstdio> instead), which means
>> there's no longer a well-defined way to get the declaration of POSIX
>> 'fileno' or 'fdopen'.
> 
> Maybe original MISRA wasn't intended for systems which even had I/O. ;)

Indeed, many of the rules make much more sense if you have an engine
control unit in mind, not an infotainment device with a megapixel screen
and a few Gigs of flash.

>> Neither of these has any specific track record for our product. The only
>> single problem source sticking out is signed/unsigned problems, of which
>> we had a handful: '(-20)/2U' has an unexpected result. Of course, our
>> rule checker does not find that (gcc does, with an increadibly high
>> false-positive rate). Other than that, most defects were algorithmic,
>> not language problems.
> 
> Playing devil's advocate, this is a sure sign of MISRA helping you in
> the development, by making it harder for the "easy" bugs to creep in,
> leaving you only the hard ones to concentrate on. Mission accomplished. :)

How does MISRA come into play here? For the code I have statistics
about, we still managed to avoid most of it :-)

Right now, I'm just seeing I have to add things, like casts for every
other assignment, which makes it harder to see the forest for the tree.
I'm not complaining about adding '{' for 'if', and I'm only half
complaining about having to use 'int_fast16_t' instead of 'int' (which
have precisely the same semantics, but the practical problem is that
many C/C++ developers don't realize that), but I'm complaining about
     p[0] = static_cast<uint8_t>(v & 255);
     p[1] = static_cast<uint8_t>((v >> 8) & 255);
which just doesn't add value, just noise.

And, in particular, I'm getting grumpy when having to change older,
perfectly working and tested code, adding the potential for new bugs,
just to get it through a checker which has already proven by example
that it itself has bugs.


  Stefan

Stefan Reuther wrote:

> Vinzent Hoefler wrote:
>> Stefan Reuther wrote:
>>>>> But don't treat me like a lobotomized
>>>>> chimpanzee who cannot distinguish "||" and "|" operators.
>>>>
>>>> You don't need lobotomy for that. Quite often the standard biological
>>>> neural network tends to see only what you expect it to see.
>>>
>>> Actually, I haven't ever had a bug regarding to those two. (However, I
>>> already had a couple of functions where I added a comment "yes, I'm
>>> really using '|' on bools here because I want both paths", to reduce
>>> that "oops, shouldn't there be two of them" feeling.)
>>
>> I wasn't talking about writing the code. I was talking about reading it.
>
> At least I'm well-conditioned enough to immediately question a construct
> having just "|" in a boolean context. Hence the comments.

Well, that's surely a plus of having to work in only one language mostly,
but when you're forced to adapt your mind from Python to Perl to Ada, back
to Java and then to C again, conditioning the mind for each potentially
questionable construct of every one of those languages is not that easy.
(Of course, not all have the same criticality level, yet conditioning the
mind for slopiness in one case and strict rules in another seems even
harder.)

>>> Which is precisely my problem with most coding standards. They don't
>>> find or prevent *practical* bugs.
>>
>> They avoid constructs that are statistically proven to fail more often
>> than others.
>
> Problem is, I don't see any evidence that MISRA does that.

Which part? The statistics or the failures? ;)

> We're doing C++. MISRA C++ outlaws functions that return *this or a
> reference parameter. That is, it outlaws all implementations of
> iostreams. It outlaws <stdio.h> (use <cstdio> instead), which means
> there's no longer a well-defined way to get the declaration of POSIX
> 'fileno' or 'fdopen'.

Maybe original MISRA wasn't intended for systems which even had I/O. ;)

> Neither of these has any specific track record for our product. The only
> single problem source sticking out is signed/unsigned problems, of which
> we had a handful: '(-20)/2U' has an unexpected result. Of course, our
> rule checker does not find that (gcc does, with an increadibly high
> false-positive rate). Other than that, most defects were algorithmic,
> not language problems.

Playing devil's advocate, this is a sure sign of MISRA helping you in
the development, by making it harder for the "easy" bugs to creep in,
leaving you only the hard ones to concentrate on. Mission accomplished. :)

And I am not trying to argue _for_ the MISRA rules here, I a just trying
to point out why they exist. Again, if anybody thinks MISRA will make
the code safer just by obeying the rules, they are mistaken. The human
part is still the important one. We, as truly responsible coders don't
need those rules, the rules are always there for the other 80% who make
the silly mistakes. ;)

I remember the last talk with my boss:

B: "So what are you currently doing?"
M: "Still at refactoring the $horrible_stuff, should be finished by today.
      One can say, I completely rewrote it by now."
B: *raises eyebrows* "So it needs to be tested before?"
M: *question mark in my face* "Errm, what answer do you expect now? - Yes,
     of course, it needs to be tested."

I am human, I did, I do and I will make errors and no f*cking rules will
ever be able to change that.

Vinzent.

-- 
A C program is like a fast dance on a newly waxed dance floor by people carrying
razors.
     --  Waldi Ravens

Hi there,

Vinzent Hoefler wrote:
> Stefan Reuther wrote:
>>>> But don't treat me like a lobotomized
>>>> chimpanzee who cannot distinguish "||" and "|" operators.
>>>
>>> You don't need lobotomy for that. Quite often the standard biological
>>> neural network tends to see only what you expect it to see.
>>
>> Actually, I haven't ever had a bug regarding to those two. (However, I
>> already had a couple of functions where I added a comment "yes, I'm
>> really using '|' on bools here because I want both paths", to reduce
>> that "oops, shouldn't there be two of them" feeling.)
> 
> I wasn't talking about writing the code. I was talking about reading it.

At least I'm well-conditioned enough to immediately question a construct
having just "|" in a boolean context. Hence the comments.

>> Which is precisely my problem with most coding standards. They don't
>> find or prevent *practical* bugs.
> 
> They avoid constructs that are statistically proven to fail more often
> than others.

Problem is, I don't see any evidence that MISRA does that.

We're doing C++. MISRA C++ outlaws functions that return *this or a
reference parameter. That is, it outlaws all implementations of
iostreams. It outlaws <stdio.h> (use <cstdio> instead), which means
there's no longer a well-defined way to get the declaration of POSIX
'fileno' or 'fdopen'. Of course, it also outlaws errno, to encourage
code like
     std::FILE* fp = std::fopen("file", "rb");
     if (fp == NULL) {
         printf("something bad happened, but I don't tell you what\n");
     }
(needless to say, all practical C++ers I know agree that NULL is bad
style in C++.) It also outlaws strcpy, memcmp, etc., because they might
be accidentally used on a wrong buffer or without a null check. By the
same argument, we'd have to outlaw addition, multiplication and division
as well, because they might be accidentally used on a wrong operand.

Neither of these has any specific track record for our product. The only
single problem source sticking out is signed/unsigned problems, of which
we had a handful: '(-20)/2U' has an unexpected result. Of course, our
rule checker does not find that (gcc does, with an increadibly high
false-positive rate). Other than that, most defects were algorithmic,
not language problems.


  Stefan

Stefan Reuther wrote:

> Vinzent Hoefler wrote:
>> Stefan Reuther wrote:
>>> MISRA is good when it encourages people to think before they type.
>>> I know MISRA doesn't want me to use macros. I also know that 90% of all
>>> compilers/optimizers explode on my codec when I use inline functions
>>> instead. So I can write you a nice paper for a deviation why I need
>>> macros here (and only here).
>>
>> And that's all what's needed. You don't have to obey the rules if you
>> can reason why they don't make sense in a particular case. That just
>> documents you thought about it.
>
> I know that. Tell that the QA inquisition.

;)

> Compare <http://www.leshatton.org/Documents/MISRA_comp_1105.pdf>, which
> concludes:
> |
> | [MISRA C 2004] has not solved the most fundamental problem of MISRA C
> | 1998, viz. that its unadulterated use as a compliance document is
> | likely to lead to more faults and not less because of the fault
> | re-injection phenomenon first noted by [1].

Something like that is also my concern. As an example, if tasking is
forbidden for safety reasons, solutions to problems that are naturally
solved by using tasking, tend to become more complex and thus have a
bigger potential for errors.

> Which precisely matches my observation. Still, people want "zero
> derivations, 100% compliance".

Which is, of course, complete nonsense.

>>> But don't treat me like a lobotomized
>>> chimpanzee who cannot distinguish "||" and "|" operators.
>>
>> You don't need lobotomy for that. Quite often the standard biological
>> neural network tends to see only what you expect it to see.
>
> Actually, I haven't ever had a bug regarding to those two. (However, I
> already had a couple of functions where I added a comment "yes, I'm
> really using '|' on bools here because I want both paths", to reduce
> that "oops, shouldn't there be two of them" feeling.)

I wasn't talking about writing the code. I was talking about reading it.

> Which is precisely my problem with most coding standards. They don't
> find or prevent *practical* bugs.

They avoid constructs that are statistically proven to fail more often
than others. As I tried to say already, that doesn't mean this doesn't
just open a whole new can of worms introducing a lot new possibilities
of doing it wrong - just in some other way.


Vinzent.

-- 
A C program is like a fast dance on a newly waxed dance floor by people carrying
razors.
     --  Waldi Ravens

Stefan Reuther wrote:

> Vinzent Hoefler wrote:
>> Stefan Reuther wrote:
>>>         write(fd, "", 1);
>>> I don't care whether it fails. Because that means the pipe is full and
>>> the other end will wake up soon, which is what I want. This gives a
>>> warning. WHICH CANNOT BE TURNED OFF. I have to uglify my code, like this,
>>>         int result = write(fd, "", 1);
>>>         if (result == 0) { }
>>
>> (void) write (fd, "", 1);
>>
>> wouldn't work?
>
> Of course not. The test suite even contains a test for this.
> <http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=25509>

Yes. Why did I even ask?


Vinzent.

-- 
A C program is like a fast dance on a newly waxed dance floor by people carrying
razors.
    --  Waldi Ravens

On Thu, 19 May 2011 22:55:51 -0700, D Yuniskis
<not.going.to.be@seen.com> wrote:

>Hi George,
>
>On 5/19/2011 5:51 PM, George Neuner wrote:
>
>><snip>
>> I also hate octal and the only times I ever have used it have been for
>> setting file permissions from the shell in Unix (back when chmod took
>> only a single octal argument).
>
>In code, I use octal primarily for character constants.
>I.e., \010 is easier to recognize than a "BS" manifest
>constant.
>
>An early employer used to push "split-octal" (0xFFFF -> 377377) for
>Z80 programming by arguing that it was easier to "hand assemble"
>code using octal because, for many instructions, you could synthesize
>an opcode by memorizing "register identifiers" and "instruction
>types", etc.  IMO, a perfect example of misplaced priorities
>("Why should I risk MISremembering an opcode when I can have the
>*machine* generate the code for me???")

Hmm.  I like hex well enough but since I worked a lot with
octal (pdp-11) many years ago, I am comfortable with it.

However, there is a nifty procedure that works by hand well,
if you are lost on a deserted island somewhere and only have
sand and your fingers to work conversions.  (There are times,
you know.)  It uses octal.

Sometimes, when I convert something from hex to decimal
without a calculator around, I first convert to octal and
perform one of the below algorithms.  Similarly, at times
when converting from some decimal number into hex, I may
first convert it to octal (see below) and then quickly
translate that over to hex.

Anyone care to explain why the algorithms below work at all
and are "symmetrical?"

CONVERSION OF DECIMAL TO OCTAL

  (0) Prefix the number with "0."  Be sure to include
      the radix point.  It's an important marker.

  (1) Double the value to the left side of the radix,
      using octal rules, move the radix point one digit
      rightward, and then place this doubled value
      underneath the current value so that the radix
      points align.

  (2) If the moved radix point crosses over a digit
      that is 8 or 9, convert it to 0 or 1 and add
      the carry to the next leftward digit of the
      current value.

  (3) Add octally those digits to the left of the radix
      and simply drop down those digits to the right,
      without modification.

  (4) If digits remain to the right of the radix, goto 1.

CONVERSION OF OCTAL TO DECIMAL

  (0) Prefix the number with "0."  Be sure to include
      the radix point.  It's an important marker.

  (1) Double the value to the left side of the radix,
      using decimal rules, move the radix point one digit
      rightward, and then place this doubled value
      underneath the current value so that the radix
      points align.

  (2) Subtract decimally those digits to the left of
      the radix and simply drop down those digits to
      the right, without modification.

  (3) If digits remain to the right of the radix, goto 1.

For example,

 0.4 9 1 8        decimal value
  +0
 ---------
   4.9 1 8
  +1 0
  --------
   6 1.1 8
  +1 4 2
  --------
   7 5 3.8
  +1 7 2 6
  --------
 1 1 4 6 6.       octal value

Let's convert it back:

 0.1 1 4 6 6      octal value
  -0
 -----------
   1.1 4 6 6
  -  2
  ----------
     9.4 6 6
  -  1 8
  ----------
     7 6.6 6
  -  1 5 2
  ----------
     6 1 4.6
  -  1 2 2 8
  ----------
     4 9 1 8.     decimal value

Jon