> On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 11:54:20 -0500, Tim Wescott (tim@seemywebsite.com)
> wrote:
>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 12:14:58 +0000, news wrote:
>>
>> > I have a project coming up which will involve 5 - 10 CAN nodes,
>> > implemented in ARM9 microcontrollers. The CAN bus will run a 1Mbit,
>> > using 11 bit identifiers. About half the nodes will be in the same
>> > physical box, the others will be in various sensor / user interface
>> > boxes connected via short lengths of cable. There is also an embedded
>> > Windows PC in the main box, which we want to use to snoop on the CAN
>> > transactions to drive a mimic display, etc. There's also the
>> > possibility of doing all the MCU firmware upgrades via CAN.
>> >
>> > So, what's the least-effort way of interfacing a 1Mbit CAN bus to a
>> > Windows PC? This has to be a chip-level solution; plug-in cards are
>> > no good for space reasons. PC host interfaces available are:
>> >
>> > - USB 2.0
>> > - PCI Express
>> > - LPC
>> >
>> > Now the difficult bit : I'm a hardware engineer, I don't write code
>> > (unless you count VHDL). We have people who write bare-metal C for
>> > MCUs, and other people who write Visual Studio .NET for PCs, but
>> > nothing in between. Our last attempt to write a driver using the
>> > Windows DDK, for a fairly simple peripheral implemented in an FPGA,
>> > took months and months to get working properly. Hence an
>> > off-the-shelf driver is pretty much a must.
>> >
>> > Two options I've looked at so far using the ubiquitous SJA1000
>> > controller:
>> >
>> > - USB interface via FT2232H in MCU Host Bus Emulation Mode
>> > This looks attractive to begin with, all the PC-side code is at the
>> > application level. All the comments I've read say that this won't
>> > keep up with a 1Mbit CAN bus, mainly due to the limited interrupt
>> > support in the FT2232.
>> > - LPC interface using address decoding, SERIRQ and other glue logic
>> > in a CPLD
>> > I already have LPC interface code in VHDL which works well in an
>> > existing product (but polled I/O only, using DLPORTIO), the difficult
>> > bit is the Windows device driver. Are there any off-the-shelf
>> > drivers available which might fit the bill? Commercial or
>> > open-source, I don't mind.
>> >
>> > Or if anyone has any better suggestions for how to do this, I'm all
>> > ears.
>>
>> These guys were great when I last used their stuff (5 years ago). They
>> would have to have worked hard to not be good now.
>>
>> http://www.kvaser.com/en/products/can/usb.html
>>
>>
> OK, thanks, I'll keep them in mind for a USB adapter for debug use but
> as far as I can see they don't do an embeddable module.
Take the case off and stick it to the inside of your box with double-
sticky tape, then.
--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com
Reply by David Brown●March 19, 20122012-03-19
On 16/03/2012 13:14, news@rblack01.plus.com wrote:
>
> I have a project coming up which will involve 5 - 10 CAN nodes,
> implemented in ARM9 microcontrollers. The CAN bus will run a 1Mbit,
> using 11 bit identifiers. About half the nodes will be in the same
> physical box, the others will be in various sensor / user interface
> boxes connected via short lengths of cable.
> There is also an embedded Windows PC in the main box, which we want to
> use to snoop on the CAN transactions to drive a mimic display, etc.
> There's also the possibility of doing all the MCU firmware upgrades via
> CAN.
>
> So, what's the least-effort way of interfacing a 1Mbit CAN bus to a
> Windows PC? This has to be a chip-level solution; plug-in cards are no
> good for space reasons. PC host interfaces available are:
>
> - USB 2.0
> - PCI Express
> - LPC
>
> Now the difficult bit : I'm a hardware engineer, I don't write code
> (unless you count VHDL). We have people who write bare-metal C for
> MCUs, and other people who write Visual Studio .NET for PCs, but nothing
> in between. Our last attempt to write a driver using the Windows DDK,
> for a fairly simple peripheral implemented in an FPGA, took months and
> months to get working properly. Hence an off-the-shelf driver is pretty
> much a must.
>
> Two options I've looked at so far using the ubiquitous SJA1000
> controller:
>
> - USB interface via FT2232H in MCU Host Bus Emulation Mode
> This looks attractive to begin with, all the PC-side code is at the
> application level. All the comments I've read say that this won't keep
> up with a 1Mbit CAN bus, mainly due to the limited interrupt support in
> the FT2232.
> - LPC interface using address decoding, SERIRQ and other glue logic in a
> CPLD
> I already have LPC interface code in VHDL which works well in an
> existing product (but polled I/O only, using DLPORTIO), the difficult
> bit is the Windows device driver. Are there any off-the-shelf drivers
> available which might fit the bill? Commercial or open-source, I don't
> mind.
>
> Or if anyone has any better suggestions for how to do this, I'm all
> ears.
>
> TIA
If you are happy making your own board, I'd recommend taking one of the
ARM devices you already use (and presumably know and love) to monitor
the CAN bus. Connect a UART on this to an FT2232H device, which is then
connected to the PC by USB. You should be able to find a fast baud rate
that the ARM and the FT2232 can handle (up to 6 MBaud, IIRC, for a
direct TTL link). Then you have a simple program in the ARM that reads
any incoming CAN telegrams and copies them out on the UART. On the PC
side, you've just got a normal (fast) USB UART input.
It's all chips that you know, technology that you know, and no device
driver development. Let the microcontroller handle the fast stuff, and
let the PC program handle the display, logging, etc.
Reply by ●March 19, 20122012-03-19
On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 11:04:35 -0400, Rich Webb
(bbew.ar@mapson.nozirev.ten) wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 14:04:24 -0000, <news@rblack01.plus.com> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 12:48:20 +0000, Andy Sinclair (andy@invalid.invalid)
> >wrote:
> >> On 16/03/12 12:14, news@rblack01.plus.com wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I have a project coming up which will involve 5 - 10 CAN nodes,
> >> > implemented in ARM9 microcontrollers. The CAN bus will run a 1Mbit,
> >> > using 11 bit identifiers. About half the nodes will be in the same
> >> > physical box, the others will be in various sensor / user interface
> >> > boxes connected via short lengths of cable.
> >> > There is also an embedded Windows PC in the main box, which we want to
> >> > use to snoop on the CAN transactions to drive a mimic display, etc.
> >> > There's also the possibility of doing all the MCU firmware upgrades via
> >> > CAN.
> >> >
> >> > So, what's the least-effort way of interfacing a 1Mbit CAN bus to a
> >> > Windows PC? This has to be a chip-level solution; plug-in cards are no
> >> > good for space reasons. PC host interfaces available are:
> >> >
> >> > - USB 2.0
> >> > - PCI Express
> >> > - LPC
> >> >
> >> Exactly how much space do you have available?
> >> Could you fit a 50mmx35mm board in there somewhere?
> >>
> >> Andy
> >>
> >
> >Possibly. I just found this:
> >
> >www.ixxat.com/can-ib120_can-interface_en.html
> >
> >which would do the job. Probably not much bigger than the SJA1000 +
> >transceiver + CPLD I was considering.
>
> Also look at the offerings over at Peak http://www.peak-systems.com
> (distributor over at http://gridconnect.com/pcan/pcan-adapters.html)
> that are about that size.
>
> We use a bunch of their USB-CAN adapters to provide PC to CAN
> connectivity for monitoring the internals of various equipment. The
> as-built USB-CAN dongle sounds like it would be too large for your app
> but, perhaps, you could just crack the case and integrate the guts,
> which may fit and would happily chatter on your USB. May be okay for a
> onsie-twosie project; not so much for 10K units/week. Could be worth
> contacting Peak, though, and asking if they have an OEM version.
Volumes will be in the low hundreds a year, high enough that we don't
want to be cracking cases apart. It only takes an innocuous little
mechanical design change to completely screw up your production -
BTDTGTTS! I'll enquire about the OEM version though, thanks.
> For true chip-level, I'd look at a smaller micro with both USB and CAN;
> something like one of STMicro's STM32 Cortex-M3 family. Your bare-metal
> guys should be able to get one up and running without too much trouble.
Our experiences with embedded USB have not been good so far - we did one
based on a PIC18 series runnning as a CDC device, using Microchip's
reference design and CDC driver. 99.9% of the time it worked fine, the
0.1% of the time - when the device wasn't detected at startup - was
virtually impossible to debug as we couldn't see which layer of the
Windows driver stack had got stuck. Debugging at the PIC end was
hampered by the fact that we couldn't step through the code without
violating the USB timeouts and having the peripheral thrown off the bus.
Are other micro vendors' USB peripherals better in this regard?
In the end we added some code to the PC application which forced a reset
of the offending USB port, this improved reliability by about an order
of magnitude, but didn't completely eliminate the fault. It was clearly
some sort of race condition at startup (it never failed once it was up
and running).
I might be unfairly maligning USB but we are increasingly moving
mission-critical functions away from it - there doesn't seem to be any
expectation, even from the vendors of the USB-capable devices, that it
will *always* work. "Have you tried resetting it?" was the first
response to most of our tech support queries.
Reply by ●March 19, 20122012-03-19
On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 11:54:20 -0500, Tim Wescott (tim@seemywebsite.com)
wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 12:14:58 +0000, news wrote:
>
> > I have a project coming up which will involve 5 - 10 CAN nodes,
> > implemented in ARM9 microcontrollers. The CAN bus will run a 1Mbit,
> > using 11 bit identifiers. About half the nodes will be in the same
> > physical box, the others will be in various sensor / user interface
> > boxes connected via short lengths of cable. There is also an embedded
> > Windows PC in the main box, which we want to use to snoop on the CAN
> > transactions to drive a mimic display, etc. There's also the possibility
> > of doing all the MCU firmware upgrades via CAN.
> >
> > So, what's the least-effort way of interfacing a 1Mbit CAN bus to a
> > Windows PC? This has to be a chip-level solution; plug-in cards are no
> > good for space reasons. PC host interfaces available are:
> >
> > - USB 2.0
> > - PCI Express
> > - LPC
> >
> > Now the difficult bit : I'm a hardware engineer, I don't write code
> > (unless you count VHDL). We have people who write bare-metal C for
> > MCUs, and other people who write Visual Studio .NET for PCs, but nothing
> > in between. Our last attempt to write a driver using the Windows DDK,
> > for a fairly simple peripheral implemented in an FPGA, took months and
> > months to get working properly. Hence an off-the-shelf driver is pretty
> > much a must.
> >
> > Two options I've looked at so far using the ubiquitous SJA1000
> > controller:
> >
> > - USB interface via FT2232H in MCU Host Bus Emulation Mode
> > This looks attractive to begin with, all the PC-side code is at the
> > application level. All the comments I've read say that this won't keep
> > up with a 1Mbit CAN bus, mainly due to the limited interrupt support in
> > the FT2232.
> > - LPC interface using address decoding, SERIRQ and other glue logic in a
> > CPLD
> > I already have LPC interface code in VHDL which works well in an
> > existing product (but polled I/O only, using DLPORTIO), the difficult
> > bit is the Windows device driver. Are there any off-the-shelf drivers
> > available which might fit the bill? Commercial or open-source, I don't
> > mind.
> >
> > Or if anyone has any better suggestions for how to do this, I'm all
> > ears.
>
> These guys were great when I last used their stuff (5 years ago). They
> would have to have worked hard to not be good now.
>
> http://www.kvaser.com/en/products/can/usb.html
>
OK, thanks, I'll keep them in mind for a USB adapter for debug use but
as far as I can see they don't do an embeddable module.
Reply by ●March 19, 20122012-03-19
On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 14:43:27 -0000, Bill Davy (Bill@SynectixLtd.com)
wrote:
> <news@rblack01.plus.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.29cd3f1eaaf8338e989681@reader80.eternal-september.org...
> >
> > I have a project coming up which will involve 5 - 10 CAN nodes,
> > implemented in ARM9 microcontrollers. The CAN bus will run a 1Mbit,
> > using 11 bit identifiers. About half the nodes will be in the same
> > physical box, the others will be in various sensor / user interface
> > boxes connected via short lengths of cable.
> > There is also an embedded Windows PC in the main box, which we want to
> > use to snoop on the CAN transactions to drive a mimic display, etc.
> > There's also the possibility of doing all the MCU firmware upgrades via
> > CAN.
> >
> > So, what's the least-effort way of interfacing a 1Mbit CAN bus to a
> > Windows PC? This has to be a chip-level solution; plug-in cards are no
> > good for space reasons. PC host interfaces available are:
> >
> > - USB 2.0
> > - PCI Express
> > - LPC
> >
> > Now the difficult bit : I'm a hardware engineer, I don't write code
> > (unless you count VHDL). We have people who write bare-metal C for
> > MCUs, and other people who write Visual Studio .NET for PCs, but nothing
> > in between. Our last attempt to write a driver using the Windows DDK,
> > for a fairly simple peripheral implemented in an FPGA, took months and
> > months to get working properly. Hence an off-the-shelf driver is pretty
> > much a must.
> >
> > Two options I've looked at so far using the ubiquitous SJA1000
> > controller:
> >
> > - USB interface via FT2232H in MCU Host Bus Emulation Mode
> > This looks attractive to begin with, all the PC-side code is at the
> > application level. All the comments I've read say that this won't keep
> > up with a 1Mbit CAN bus, mainly due to the limited interrupt support in
> > the FT2232.
> > - LPC interface using address decoding, SERIRQ and other glue logic in a
> > CPLD
> > I already have LPC interface code in VHDL which works well in an
> > existing product (but polled I/O only, using DLPORTIO), the difficult
> > bit is the Windows device driver. Are there any off-the-shelf drivers
> > available which might fit the bill? Commercial or open-source, I don't
> > mind.
> >
> > Or if anyone has any better suggestions for how to do this, I'm all
> > ears.
> >
> > TIA
>
>
> Not an SJA1000 but I used a CANdo USB to CAN module from
> http://www.cananalyser.co.uk/ and it worked a treat.
>
OK, thanks, that's the smallest board-level module I've seen so far.
I'll add it to the list.
Reply by Rich Webb●March 16, 20122012-03-16
On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 16:11:33 +0000, Andy Sinclair <andy@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
>On 16/03/12 15:04, Rich Webb wrote:
>> Also look at the offerings over at Peak http://www.peak-systems.com
>> (distributor over at http://gridconnect.com/pcan/pcan-adapters.html)
>> that are about that size.
>>
>> We use a bunch of their USB-CAN adapters to provide PC to CAN
>> connectivity for monitoring the internals of various equipment. The
>> as-built USB-CAN dongle sounds like it would be too large for your app
>> but, perhaps, you could just crack the case and integrate the guts,
>> which may fit and would happily chatter on your USB. May be okay for a
>> onsie-twosie project; not so much for 10K units/week. Could be worth
>> contacting Peak, though, and asking if they have an OEM version.
>>
>> For true chip-level, I'd look at a smaller micro with both USB and CAN;
>> something like one of STMicro's STM32 Cortex-M3 family. Your bare-metal
>> guys should be able to get one up and running without too much trouble.
>>
>The Peak PCAN-USB is what I had in mind. the board inside the plastic
>case is 50mmx35mm.
>It would certainly be easier than a custom interface for small volumes.
It's pretty easy to get up and running for custom apps. In addition to a
basic bus monitor (PCanView) it comes with a dll for MS Windows apps.
That, plus my trusty Borland BCB5, is all that's needed for some snazzy
monitoring. They also include a Linux driver; haven't played with that.
--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA
Reply by Tim Wescott●March 16, 20122012-03-16
On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 12:14:58 +0000, news wrote:
> I have a project coming up which will involve 5 - 10 CAN nodes,
> implemented in ARM9 microcontrollers. The CAN bus will run a 1Mbit,
> using 11 bit identifiers. About half the nodes will be in the same
> physical box, the others will be in various sensor / user interface
> boxes connected via short lengths of cable. There is also an embedded
> Windows PC in the main box, which we want to use to snoop on the CAN
> transactions to drive a mimic display, etc. There's also the possibility
> of doing all the MCU firmware upgrades via CAN.
>
> So, what's the least-effort way of interfacing a 1Mbit CAN bus to a
> Windows PC? This has to be a chip-level solution; plug-in cards are no
> good for space reasons. PC host interfaces available are:
>
> - USB 2.0
> - PCI Express
> - LPC
>
> Now the difficult bit : I'm a hardware engineer, I don't write code
> (unless you count VHDL). We have people who write bare-metal C for
> MCUs, and other people who write Visual Studio .NET for PCs, but nothing
> in between. Our last attempt to write a driver using the Windows DDK,
> for a fairly simple peripheral implemented in an FPGA, took months and
> months to get working properly. Hence an off-the-shelf driver is pretty
> much a must.
>
> Two options I've looked at so far using the ubiquitous SJA1000
> controller:
>
> - USB interface via FT2232H in MCU Host Bus Emulation Mode
> This looks attractive to begin with, all the PC-side code is at the
> application level. All the comments I've read say that this won't keep
> up with a 1Mbit CAN bus, mainly due to the limited interrupt support in
> the FT2232.
> - LPC interface using address decoding, SERIRQ and other glue logic in a
> CPLD
> I already have LPC interface code in VHDL which works well in an
> existing product (but polled I/O only, using DLPORTIO), the difficult
> bit is the Windows device driver. Are there any off-the-shelf drivers
> available which might fit the bill? Commercial or open-source, I don't
> mind.
>
> Or if anyone has any better suggestions for how to do this, I'm all
> ears.
These guys were great when I last used their stuff (5 years ago). They
would have to have worked hard to not be good now.
http://www.kvaser.com/en/products/can/usb.html
--
My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook.
My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook.
Why am I not happy that they have found common ground?
Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Reply by Andy Sinclair●March 16, 20122012-03-16
On 16/03/12 15:04, Rich Webb wrote:
> Also look at the offerings over at Peak http://www.peak-systems.com
> (distributor over at http://gridconnect.com/pcan/pcan-adapters.html)
> that are about that size.
>
> We use a bunch of their USB-CAN adapters to provide PC to CAN
> connectivity for monitoring the internals of various equipment. The
> as-built USB-CAN dongle sounds like it would be too large for your app
> but, perhaps, you could just crack the case and integrate the guts,
> which may fit and would happily chatter on your USB. May be okay for a
> onsie-twosie project; not so much for 10K units/week. Could be worth
> contacting Peak, though, and asking if they have an OEM version.
>
> For true chip-level, I'd look at a smaller micro with both USB and CAN;
> something like one of STMicro's STM32 Cortex-M3 family. Your bare-metal
> guys should be able to get one up and running without too much trouble.
>
The Peak PCAN-USB is what I had in mind. the board inside the plastic
case is 50mmx35mm.
It would certainly be easier than a custom interface for small volumes.
Andy
Reply by Rich Webb●March 16, 20122012-03-16
On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 14:04:24 -0000, <news@rblack01.plus.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 12:48:20 +0000, Andy Sinclair (andy@invalid.invalid)
>wrote:
>> On 16/03/12 12:14, news@rblack01.plus.com wrote:
>> >
>> > I have a project coming up which will involve 5 - 10 CAN nodes,
>> > implemented in ARM9 microcontrollers. The CAN bus will run a 1Mbit,
>> > using 11 bit identifiers. About half the nodes will be in the same
>> > physical box, the others will be in various sensor / user interface
>> > boxes connected via short lengths of cable.
>> > There is also an embedded Windows PC in the main box, which we want to
>> > use to snoop on the CAN transactions to drive a mimic display, etc.
>> > There's also the possibility of doing all the MCU firmware upgrades via
>> > CAN.
>> >
>> > So, what's the least-effort way of interfacing a 1Mbit CAN bus to a
>> > Windows PC? This has to be a chip-level solution; plug-in cards are no
>> > good for space reasons. PC host interfaces available are:
>> >
>> > - USB 2.0
>> > - PCI Express
>> > - LPC
>> >
>> Exactly how much space do you have available?
>> Could you fit a 50mmx35mm board in there somewhere?
>>
>> Andy
>>
>
>Possibly. I just found this:
>
>www.ixxat.com/can-ib120_can-interface_en.html
>
>which would do the job. Probably not much bigger than the SJA1000 +
>transceiver + CPLD I was considering.
Also look at the offerings over at Peak http://www.peak-systems.com
(distributor over at http://gridconnect.com/pcan/pcan-adapters.html)
that are about that size.
We use a bunch of their USB-CAN adapters to provide PC to CAN
connectivity for monitoring the internals of various equipment. The
as-built USB-CAN dongle sounds like it would be too large for your app
but, perhaps, you could just crack the case and integrate the guts,
which may fit and would happily chatter on your USB. May be okay for a
onsie-twosie project; not so much for 10K units/week. Could be worth
contacting Peak, though, and asking if they have an OEM version.
For true chip-level, I'd look at a smaller micro with both USB and CAN;
something like one of STMicro's STM32 Cortex-M3 family. Your bare-metal
guys should be able to get one up and running without too much trouble.
--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA
Reply by Bill Davy●March 16, 20122012-03-16
<news@rblack01.plus.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.29cd3f1eaaf8338e989681@reader80.eternal-september.org...
>
> I have a project coming up which will involve 5 - 10 CAN nodes,
> implemented in ARM9 microcontrollers. The CAN bus will run a 1Mbit,
> using 11 bit identifiers. About half the nodes will be in the same
> physical box, the others will be in various sensor / user interface
> boxes connected via short lengths of cable.
> There is also an embedded Windows PC in the main box, which we want to
> use to snoop on the CAN transactions to drive a mimic display, etc.
> There's also the possibility of doing all the MCU firmware upgrades via
> CAN.
>
> So, what's the least-effort way of interfacing a 1Mbit CAN bus to a
> Windows PC? This has to be a chip-level solution; plug-in cards are no
> good for space reasons. PC host interfaces available are:
>
> - USB 2.0
> - PCI Express
> - LPC
>
> Now the difficult bit : I'm a hardware engineer, I don't write code
> (unless you count VHDL). We have people who write bare-metal C for
> MCUs, and other people who write Visual Studio .NET for PCs, but nothing
> in between. Our last attempt to write a driver using the Windows DDK,
> for a fairly simple peripheral implemented in an FPGA, took months and
> months to get working properly. Hence an off-the-shelf driver is pretty
> much a must.
>
> Two options I've looked at so far using the ubiquitous SJA1000
> controller:
>
> - USB interface via FT2232H in MCU Host Bus Emulation Mode
> This looks attractive to begin with, all the PC-side code is at the
> application level. All the comments I've read say that this won't keep
> up with a 1Mbit CAN bus, mainly due to the limited interrupt support in
> the FT2232.
> - LPC interface using address decoding, SERIRQ and other glue logic in a
> CPLD
> I already have LPC interface code in VHDL which works well in an
> existing product (but polled I/O only, using DLPORTIO), the difficult
> bit is the Windows device driver. Are there any off-the-shelf drivers
> available which might fit the bill? Commercial or open-source, I don't
> mind.
>
> Or if anyone has any better suggestions for how to do this, I'm all
> ears.
>
> TIA