> > Microchip also provide dsPIC33 which seem competitive but they don't seem
> > to have some of the robustness features; ECC memory for one. Also I've read
> > that the FLASH write cycles can be very low although I didn't notice it on
> > a previous project.

> We use a range of freescale parts, and they are all available from Digikey.
> Although for some parts, you may have an MOQ if you want a particular 
> package and temperature rating.

According to the spec, dsPIC33 can run up to 120C at full speed and 150C at half speed.  We pick them for wide temp range of -40 to 150C for an outdoor product, but perhaps not as hot as under the hood.

> Regarding performance, Some of the S12 variants have an XGATE 
> co-processor (E.g mc9s12xep100).

DsPIC33 has 24 bits accumulator and single cycle multipler.  It should be handy for apps such as audio/voice codec, with the build-in D2A.

On 06/11/13 10:43, Andy Sinclair wrote:
> On 05/11/13 14:31, treborlecs wrote:
>> I'm currently looking to specify two MCUs for an automotive application.
>> The first will be driving an small OLED and the second will be driving
>> solenoids (and some other duties). Both connected via CAN. Normally I
>> would
>> use an ARM based MCU (familiarity and tools) but apart from a single TI
>> CM3, 99% are not automotive qualified / have the temperature range.
>>
>> After lots of searching Freescale seems to be the dominant provider
>> and an
>> S9S12G128 / MPC5602P combination seems to fit the requirements. The tool
>> cost for Freescale seem to be pretty high, although ‘special ' versions
>> of CodeWarrier seem to be listed as "Free" not sure what that means? Free
>> with dev kits? That may mean that I use two of the same despite extra
>> costs
>> incurred.
> Freescale have automotive qualified ARM parts with CAN which may be
> worth looking at.
> 
> Normally the 'special' codewarrior is subject to a maximum code size,
> 32kB or 64kB depending on the part IIRC.
> 
> You can also use GCC if you like.
> 

I believe that you can use the supplied gcc to compile code bigger than
than the code size limit, but you can't debug it with the "special"
edition of CodeWarrior.  The same applies to using C++ - gcc supports
it, but not the "special edition" debugger.

On 05/11/13 14:31, treborlecs wrote:
> I'm currently looking to specify two MCUs for an automotive application.
> The first will be driving an small OLED and the second will be driving
> solenoids (and some other duties). Both connected via CAN. Normally I would
> use an ARM based MCU (familiarity and tools) but apart from a single TI
> CM3, 99% are not automotive qualified / have the temperature range.
>
> After lots of searching Freescale seems to be the dominant provider and an
> S9S12G128 / MPC5602P combination seems to fit the requirements. The tool
> cost for Freescale seem to be pretty high, although ‘special ' versions
> of CodeWarrier seem to be listed as "Free" not sure what that means? Free
> with dev kits? That may mean that I use two of the same despite extra costs
> incurred.
Freescale have automotive qualified ARM parts with CAN which may be 
worth looking at.

Normally the 'special' codewarrior is subject to a maximum code size, 
32kB or 64kB depending on the part IIRC.

You can also use GCC if you like.


> Microchip also provide dsPIC33 which seem competitive but they don't seem
> to have some of the robustness features; ECC memory for one. Also I've read
> that the FLASH write cycles can be very low although I didn't notice it on
> a previous project.

> The product won't be large volumes (x100 at most) Does anyone have any
> experience with Freescale products when compared to Microchip for
> automotive applications? Freescale MCUs, apart from some of the S12's don't
> seem to be available from suppliers (digikey, mouser…etc). Also the
> performance of the S12 may be a small concern, especially when compared to
> the dsPICs.
We use a range of freescale parts, and they are all available from Digikey.
Although for some parts, you may have an MOQ if you want a particular 
package and temperature rating.

Regarding performance, Some of the S12 variants have an XGATE 
co-processor (E.g mc9s12xep100).

Andy

On Wednesday, November 6, 2013 3:31:54 AM UTC+13, treborlecs wrote:
> I'm currently looking to specify two MCUs for an automotive application.
> The first will be driving an small OLED and the second will be driving
> solenoids (and some other duties). Both connected via CAN.

SiLabs have CAN Automotive spec devices.

 These should do the Solenoid instance, and depending on how small the 'small OLED' is, may even have a part for that too. Come up to 128KF and 8KR

http://www.silabs.com/products/mcu/automotive/Pages/default.aspx

Infineon XMC1xx series can spec to 105'C, but is not full automotive.
 

On 11/5/2013 7:31 AM, treborlecs wrote:
> I'm currently looking to specify two MCUs for an automotive application.
> The first will be driving an small OLED and the second will be driving
> solenoids (and some other duties). Both connected via CAN. Normally I would
> use an ARM based MCU (familiarity and tools) but apart from a single TI
> CM3, 99% are not automotive qualified / have the temperature range.

A single device can't serve both purposes (perhaps because of location
requirements of each)?

Presumably, you are hard pressed on temperature at the *high* end
and not the low?  What risk do you run if the devices are "borderline"
in terms of *specified* performance?

> After lots of searching Freescale seems to be the dominant provider and an
> S9S12G128 / MPC5602P combination seems to fit the requirements. The tool
> cost for Freescale seem to be pretty high, although ‘special ' versions
> of CodeWarrier seem to be listed as "Free" not sure what that means? Free
> with dev kits? That may mean that I use two of the same despite extra costs
> incurred.

Usually, the kits are limited in terms of the complexity of the
"programs" you can write.  Either in terms of size of binary
created, number of source files, etc.  If you are trying to do
this on a hobbyist's budget, there are often ways to coax a
"limited" tool to meet your needs -- though often at some bit
of inconvenience on your part (e.g., cut the application in half
and link the two halves through a jump table, etc.)

> Microchip also provide dsPIC33 which seem competitive but they don't seem
> to have some of the robustness features; ECC memory for one. Also I've read
> that the FLASH write cycles can be very low although I didn't notice it on
> a previous project.

Are you *sure* you need ECC memory?  What are you protecting against?
General memory failures?  Or, *specific* "precious" data?  In the
latter case, you can implement your own ECC algorithms and access
those parameters through a mechanism that you create.

You are probably not going to be able to use FLASH like RAM.
Instead, you want to be using it for configuration information
and things that don't change often.  E.g., storing the frequencies
of radio station presets (which don't change often -- and probably
can't PHYSICALLY be changed often!)

If you need to store something in FLASH that changes often, you
might have to keep a "live copy" that you update as often as you
want and arrange for that to get stashed in FLASH "just before
powering off" or even "periodically" -- as long as that ends up
less than your high frequency update rate.

> The product won't be large volumes (x100 at most) Does anyone have any
> experience with Freescale products when compared to Microchip for
> automotive applications? Freescale MCUs, apart from some of the S12's don't
> seem to be available from suppliers (digikey, mouser…etc). Also the
> performance of the S12 may be a small concern, especially when compared to
> the dsPICs.
>
> Any general advice would be appreciated.

Only you can decide if a particular device will meet your requirements
(capabilities, etc.).  Ask yourself what it is about the dsPICs that
sets them apart/above the other choices.  Then, see if there is a
way to *not* need that capability -- thereby reducing the dsPICs
advantage and making other options more usable.

If you are looking for small volumes, a big part of your design
decision will be *getting* the parts.  The "perfect" part is useless
if it's not obtainable (for you).

On 05/11/13 15:31, treborlecs wrote:
> I'm currently looking to specify two MCUs for an automotive application.
> The first will be driving an small OLED and the second will be driving
> solenoids (and some other duties). Both connected via CAN. Normally I would
> use an ARM based MCU (familiarity and tools) but apart from a single TI
> CM3, 99% are not automotive qualified / have the temperature range.
>
> After lots of searching Freescale seems to be the dominant provider and an
> S9S12G128 / MPC5602P combination seems to fit the requirements. The tool
> cost for Freescale seem to be pretty high, although ‘special ' versions
> of CodeWarrier seem to be listed as "Free" not sure what that means? Free
> with dev kits? That may mean that I use two of the same despite extra costs
> incurred.

Details of CodeWarrior versions are pretty clear on the Freescale website:

<http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=CW-MCU10>

Look for the "CodeWarrior Development Suite comparison" link.

Basically, the free version has restrictions on the size of the code you 
can work with - but I've found the limits more than high enough for 
real-world projects.

CodeWarrior is quite good, now that they have dropped their own IDE and 
moved over to Eclipse.  In an incredibly thoughtless decision, they 
decided to drop the Linux versions after 10.3, which has annoyed a lot 
of people.  (Don't these guys know that a lot of modern embedded and 
automotive development is done on Linux and for Linux?).  It is also 
extraordinarily daft policy that C++ is only available on the 
"professional" version (at $5000 for a full license).

The library is a bit weird, and the wizard-generated startup and 
interrupt code is sometimes truly awful, but that's not uncommon in 
toolchains.  The compiler does a solid job.

>
> Microchip also provide dsPIC33 which seem competitive but they don't seem
> to have some of the robustness features; ECC memory for one. Also I've read
> that the FLASH write cycles can be very low although I didn't notice it on
> a previous project.
>
> The product won't be large volumes (x100 at most) Does anyone have any
> experience with Freescale products when compared to Microchip for
> automotive applications? Freescale MCUs, apart from some of the S12's don't
> seem to be available from suppliers (digikey, mouser&hellip;etc). Also the
> performance of the S12 may be a small concern, especially when compared to
> the dsPICs.
>
> Any general advice would be appreciated.
> 	

We've never had trouble getting Freescale parts, though we usually use a 
real distributor.

On Tuesday 05 November 2013 15:31 treborlecs wrote:

> I'm currently looking to specify two MCUs for an automotive application.
> The first will be driving an small OLED and the second will be driving
> solenoids (and some other duties). Both connected via CAN. Normally I
> would use an ARM based MCU (familiarity and tools) but apart from a single
> TI CM3, 99% are not automotive qualified / have the temperature range.
> 
> After lots of searching Freescale seems to be the dominant provider and an
> S9S12G128 / MPC5602P combination seems to fit the requirements. The tool
> cost for Freescale seem to be pretty high, although ‘special ' versions
> of CodeWarrier seem to be listed as "Free" not sure what that means? Free
> with dev kits? That may mean that I use two of the same despite extra
> costs incurred.
> 
> Microchip also provide dsPIC33 which seem competitive but they don't seem
> to have some of the robustness features; ECC memory for one. Also I've
> read that the FLASH write cycles can be very low although I didn't notice
> it on a previous project.
> 
> The product won't be large volumes (x100 at most) Does anyone have any
> experience with Freescale products when compared to Microchip for
> automotive applications? Freescale MCUs, apart from some of the S12's
> don't seem to be available from suppliers (digikey, mouser…etc). Also the
> performance of the S12 may be a small concern, especially when compared to
> the dsPICs.
> 
> Any general advice would be appreciated.
> 
> 
Have a look at the Fujitsu MB96Fxxx family. These are automotive style MPUs 
and come with a free compiler. I have been using these and their predecessor 
(MB90Fxxx) for more than 10 years now.
http://www.spansion.com/Products/microcontrollers/16-Bit-Original-
Core/Pages/Automotive-16bit.aspx
-- 
Reinhardt Behm
rb@rbehm.de

On 11/5/2013 8:31 AM, treborlecs wrote:

> I'm currently looking to specify two MCUs for an automotive application.

If this is intended for OEM product, then you don't have much freedom in 
choosing MCUs or tools. First, look what is approved or would be 
acceptable with your customer.

Vladimir Vassilevsky
DSP and Mixed Signal Designs
www.abvolt.com

On Tuesday, November 5, 2013 6:31:54 AM UTC-8, treborlecs wrote:
> I'm currently looking to specify two MCUs for an automotive application.
> The first will be driving an small OLED 

This is in passenger compartment, right?  Why would you put an OLED display under the hood?  If so, you don't need high temp. grade for this.

> and the second will be driving solenoids 

This can be lower performance.

> Microchip also provide dsPIC33 which seem competitive but they don't seem
> to have some of the robustness features; ECC memory for one. 

You only need ECC for dynamic ram.  How much memory do you need under the hood?

> Also I've read that the FLASH write cycles can be very low 

Not a problem unless you are changing the FLASH in run time.

I'm currently looking to specify two MCUs for an automotive application.
The first will be driving an small OLED and the second will be driving
solenoids (and some other duties). Both connected via CAN. Normally I would
use an ARM based MCU (familiarity and tools) but apart from a single TI
CM3, 99% are not automotive qualified / have the temperature range. 

After lots of searching Freescale seems to be the dominant provider and an
S9S12G128 / MPC5602P combination seems to fit the requirements. The tool
cost for Freescale seem to be pretty high, although ‘special ' versions
of CodeWarrier seem to be listed as "Free" not sure what that means? Free
with dev kits? That may mean that I use two of the same despite extra costs
incurred. 

Microchip also provide dsPIC33 which seem competitive but they don't seem
to have some of the robustness features; ECC memory for one. Also I've read
that the FLASH write cycles can be very low although I didn't notice it on
a previous project. 

The product won't be large volumes (x100 at most) Does anyone have any
experience with Freescale products when compared to Microchip for
automotive applications? Freescale MCUs, apart from some of the S12's don't
seem to be available from suppliers (digikey, mouser…etc). Also the
performance of the S12 may be a small concern, especially when compared to
the dsPICs. 

Any general advice would be appreciated.  
	   
					
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