Jim Granville wrote:
> 
> Ralph Malph wrote:
> > I am looking at replacing several hardware chips with an MCU.  I
> > considered this once before but was looking for a lot more in the way of
> > IO than I am now.  Also, this time the MCU has to operate over the full
> > automotive temp range of -40 to +125C.
> 
>   Since this chestnut is a common one, I did see Atmel have
> posted new data on their ATAM893-J
>   http://www.atmel.com/dyn/general/tech_doc.asp?doc_id=7529
> 
> This has both wide Vcc (1.8-6.5V) and Wide Temp (-40'C..+125'C)
> and good low power operations of 32Khz clock engine (< 1uA).
>   Would make a good extremes system power sequencer / wdog /
> general health monitor...

This is of interest to me.  I looked at this data sheet and could not
find any significant differences to the ATAM893-V.  Both are wide temp
and the rest seems to be the same except for notes about how the -J
version has a 5% faster clock (on the average) compared to the ROM parts
and the -J version the lack of selectable high drive outputs on the -J
version, again compared to the ROM versions, not the -V.  

Anyone see a significant difference between the -J and the -V versions? 
Did I miss something big?  

-- 

Rick "rickman" Collins

rick.collins@XYarius.com
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removed.

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"Jim Granville" <no.spam@designtools.co.nz> skrev i meddelandet
news:Yncxc.1374$NA1.133111@news02.tsnz.net...
> Ralph Malph wrote:
> > I am looking at replacing several hardware chips with an MCU.  I
> > considered this once before but was looking for a lot more in the way of
> > IO than I am now.  Also, this time the MCU has to operate over the full
> > automotive temp range of -40 to +125C.
>
>   Since this chestnut is a common one, I did see Atmel have
> posted new data on their ATAM893-J
>   http://www.atmel.com/dyn/general/tech_doc.asp?doc_id=7529
>
> This has both wide Vcc (1.8-6.5V) and Wide Temp (-40'C..+125'C)
> and good low power operations of 32Khz clock engine (< 1uA).
>   Would make a good extremes system power sequencer / wdog /
> general health monitor...
> -jg

The AT89C51CC01 is also coming in Automotive temp.


-- 
Best Regards
Ulf at atmel dot com
These comments are intended to be my own opinion and they
may, or may not be shared by my employer, Atmel Sweden.

Ralph Malph wrote:
> I am looking at replacing several hardware chips with an MCU.  I
> considered this once before but was looking for a lot more in the way of
> IO than I am now.  Also, this time the MCU has to operate over the full
> automotive temp range of -40 to +125C.

  Since this chestnut is a common one, I did see Atmel have
posted new data on their ATAM893-J
  http://www.atmel.com/dyn/general/tech_doc.asp?doc_id=7529

This has both wide Vcc (1.8-6.5V) and Wide Temp (-40'C..+125'C)
and good low power operations of 32Khz clock engine (< 1uA).
  Would make a good extremes system power sequencer / wdog /
general health monitor...
-jg

Ulf Samuelsson wrote:
> 
> "Ralph Malph" <noone@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:40134437.67D84AE4@yahoo.com...
> > I am looking at replacing several hardware chips with an MCU.  I
> > considered this once before but was looking for a lot more in the way of
> > IO than I am now.  Also, this time the MCU has to operate over the full
> > automotive temp range of -40 to +125C.  I have looked at several
> > manufacturers web sites, but they typically don't include temperature
> > range in the guides.  So I have to pick the dozen or so that are a
> > likely fit otherwise and then download every data sheet.
> >
> > I thought I might ask here for chips that anyone has used before that
> > would fit my needs.
> >
> > -40C to 125C range (of course)
> > ISP
> > 18 or more IOs (after accounting for ISP)
> > at least two outputs must drive LEDs at 20 mA
> > very little RAM and Flash size requirements, they just have to be there
> > the flash has to be writable by the MCU (or data EEPROM will do)
> > temperature measurement or ADC inputs
> > small package; TSSOP or QFN or very small QFP (like 48 TQFP)
> > low price, <$3 in 1k qty
> > easy to buy in 100's or 1000's
> >
> 
> >
> > Any others that I should look at?  I bet there are tons of low cost
> > automotive 8051s.
> 
> I think that you can get some Atmel Flash 8051s (at least the T89C51CC01 CAN
> version)
> in full Automotive temp but I do not have the full list.
> Check with your local Atmel FAE.

I sent an email to Dan Ujvari, but I have not received a reply.  Of the
8051s I saw on the Atmel site, they were not very well suited to this
app.

"Ralph Malph" <noone@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:40134437.67D84AE4@yahoo.com...
> I am looking at replacing several hardware chips with an MCU.  I
> considered this once before but was looking for a lot more in the way of
> IO than I am now.  Also, this time the MCU has to operate over the full
> automotive temp range of -40 to +125C.  I have looked at several
> manufacturers web sites, but they typically don't include temperature
> range in the guides.  So I have to pick the dozen or so that are a
> likely fit otherwise and then download every data sheet.
>
> I thought I might ask here for chips that anyone has used before that
> would fit my needs.
>
> -40C to 125C range (of course)
> ISP
> 18 or more IOs (after accounting for ISP)
> at least two outputs must drive LEDs at 20 mA
> very little RAM and Flash size requirements, they just have to be there
> the flash has to be writable by the MCU (or data EEPROM will do)
> temperature measurement or ADC inputs
> small package; TSSOP or QFN or very small QFP (like 48 TQFP)
> low price, <$3 in 1k qty
> easy to buy in 100's or 1000's
>

>
> Any others that I should look at?  I bet there are tons of low cost
> automotive 8051s.

I think that you can get some Atmel Flash 8051s (at least the T89C51CC01 CAN
version)
in full Automotive temp but I do not have the full list.
Check with your local Atmel FAE.

-- 
Best Regards
Ulf at atmel dot com
These comments are intended to be my own opinion and they
may, or may not be shared by my employer, Atmel Sweden.

William Meyer wrote:
> oN 27-Jan-04, Jim Granville said:
> 
> 
>>If you like the AVRs, imagine adding a register Frame pointer, and
>>some efficent direct memory opcodes, and you are close to a Z8
> 
> 
> I used to be a Z8 fan, but the brain-damaged implementation of a UART was a serious impediment. 
 > Did that get fixed on the way to the eZ8?

  The eZ8 UART looks at the top end of uC uarts - it has TX Shift and TX 
hold  empty, as well as CTS hardware flow control, and parity/address 
recognize/BRG/Break , and IRDA pulse modes too..


> The Super8 was a much better device, but they shot that one out from under us a few years ago, 
 > and with almost no advance notice. That left me little confidence in 
Zilog as a supplier.

  Technically, one might have expected the FLASH devices to choose the 
Super8, but I guess commercial reality hit, and they decided to just do 
OTP -> FLASH on a family that has some market coverage.

-jg

oN 27-Jan-04, Jim Granville said:

> If you like the AVRs, imagine adding a register Frame pointer, and
> some efficent direct memory opcodes, and you are close to a Z8

I used to be a Z8 fan, but the brain-damaged implementation of a UART was =
a serious impediment. Did that get fixed on the way to the eZ8? 

The Super8 was a much better device, but they shot that one out from under =
us a few years ago, and with almost no advance notice. That left me little =
confidence in Zilog as a supplier.

-- 
Bill
Posted with XanaNews Version 1.16.1.4

"Spehro Pefhany
> 
> On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 08:57:39 PST, the renowned mojaveg@IWVISP.com
> (Everett M. Greene) wrote:
> 
> >Ralph Malph <noone@yahoo.com> writes:
> >> So there seems to be some Motorola options, but they are no smaller than
> >> the PIC as Motorola does not have the small packages at this time and
> >> all the more cost effective parts (less Flash and RAM) also have too few
> >> IOs.  They don't seem to use any TSSOPs above 16 pins and they don't
> >> have any QFNs listed at all that I can find in the Q1 '04 selection
> >> guide.  So without a smaller package, they would have to have a very low
> >> price to be a better choice than the PIC.
> >
> >I'm baffled by all the postings I've seen on this thread.
> >In one of them it was said that the application was instru-
> >mentation for a locomotive, but there's an obsession with
> >finding the physically smallest MCU possible; given the size
> >of most railroad locomotives, it's hard to imagine size
> >being particularly critical.
> >
> >It was not stated as to whether test instrumentation or
> >permanent, operational instrumentation was meant, but if
> >the former, it's hard to imagine a slight difference in
> >price of an MCU being much of a factor;  if the latter,
> >given the multi-million dollar price of locomotives, a
> >dollar or two difference in the price of an MCU is negligible.
> >
> >Another posting said something about wanting to monitor Vdd.
> >This would seem to be a matter of trying to measure a voltage
> >with the voltage being measured, regardless of how one goes
> >about doing it.  It's also hard to imagine a need to monitor
> >Vdd (except for operating/fail) in any event.
> 
> Sounds like a batter-powered instrument of some kind, maybe
> specialized data logger.

Yes, many of the apps for this board are remotely located, running off
batteries.  The board shuts down and only has to power the RTC in this
section of the board.  When needed, it wakes up and runs the DSP
application and returns to slumber.  Some customers only need to run a
couple of times a day for a few seconds.  So the power of the sleep
circuit can still be significant if it is too high.

"Everett M. Greene" wrote:
> 
> Ralph Malph <noone@yahoo.com> writes:
> > So there seems to be some Motorola options, but they are no smaller than
> > the PIC as Motorola does not have the small packages at this time and
> > all the more cost effective parts (less Flash and RAM) also have too few
> > IOs.  They don't seem to use any TSSOPs above 16 pins and they don't
> > have any QFNs listed at all that I can find in the Q1 '04 selection
> > guide.  So without a smaller package, they would have to have a very low
> > price to be a better choice than the PIC.
> 
> I'm baffled by all the postings I've seen on this thread.
> In one of them it was said that the application was instru-
> mentation for a locomotive, but there's an obsession with
> finding the physically smallest MCU possible; given the size
> of most railroad locomotives, it's hard to imagine size
> being particularly critical.

This board is for multiple applications.  The locomotive app was one
that illustrates the need for high temperatures.  

> It was not stated as to whether test instrumentation or
> permanent, operational instrumentation was meant, but if
> the former, it's hard to imagine a slight difference in
> price of an MCU being much of a factor;  if the latter,
> given the multi-million dollar price of locomotives, a
> dollar or two difference in the price of an MCU is negligible.

Again, this board is to be sold for multiple apps.  A dollar may not
make a big different in the end cost, but if selling 10,000 units over
the next few years, a buck parts savings will provide an additional
$10,000 in profits.  Certainly it is worth a thorough examination of the
available parts.  


> Another posting said something about wanting to monitor Vdd.
> This would seem to be a matter of trying to measure a voltage
> with the voltage being measured, regardless of how one goes
> about doing it.  It's also hard to imagine a need to monitor
> Vdd (except for operating/fail) in any event.

Since when is Vdd used as a reference for measuring *anything*?  That
was my point.  Some of the chips use Vdd as the refernce for the on chip
ADC.  With most Vdds being 2 or 3% accurate, this seriously degrades the
performance of the ADC.  Most boards these days have multiple power
supplies on board.  This board will have five DCDC converters and will
have two separate 5 volt sections.  

I find that most engineers want to rework the problem that is being
solved.  I have minimized the solution to either one chip or two.  Now I
am just trying to find the best choice to suit that decision.  In any
case, this chip must meet automotive temps.  

I have been told that the Cypress PSOC chips will be available in
automotive temp range shortly.  If I can confirm that, this may be a $2,
one chip solution.  Smallest size (QFN), lowest cost and fewest chips; I
see that as worth a few days of searching.

On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 08:57:39 PST, the renowned mojaveg@IWVISP.com
(Everett M. Greene) wrote:

>Ralph Malph <noone@yahoo.com> writes:
>> So there seems to be some Motorola options, but they are no smaller than
>> the PIC as Motorola does not have the small packages at this time and
>> all the more cost effective parts (less Flash and RAM) also have too few
>> IOs.  They don't seem to use any TSSOPs above 16 pins and they don't
>> have any QFNs listed at all that I can find in the Q1 '04 selection
>> guide.  So without a smaller package, they would have to have a very low
>> price to be a better choice than the PIC.
>
>I'm baffled by all the postings I've seen on this thread.
>In one of them it was said that the application was instru-
>mentation for a locomotive, but there's an obsession with
>finding the physically smallest MCU possible; given the size
>of most railroad locomotives, it's hard to imagine size
>being particularly critical.
>
>It was not stated as to whether test instrumentation or
>permanent, operational instrumentation was meant, but if
>the former, it's hard to imagine a slight difference in
>price of an MCU being much of a factor;  if the latter,
>given the multi-million dollar price of locomotives, a
>dollar or two difference in the price of an MCU is negligible.
>
>Another posting said something about wanting to monitor Vdd.
>This would seem to be a matter of trying to measure a voltage
>with the voltage being measured, regardless of how one goes
>about doing it.  It's also hard to imagine a need to monitor
>Vdd (except for operating/fail) in any event.

Sounds like a batter-powered instrument of some kind, maybe
specialized data logger. 

Best regards, 
Spehro Pefhany
-- 
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
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