Reply by Don Y December 7, 20162016-12-07
On 12/7/2016 12:38 PM, Theo Markettos wrote:
> However I'd say one distinction is about supply chain. These are /consumer/ > products - here today, gone tomorrow. Likely Android will be around for > years in some form (like Windows CE is still), but basing your product on > the hottest tablet of 2017 is pretty risky because it likely won't last more > than a year.
Then don't base the *product* on the tablet; rather, base the product on an abstraction that the tablet can reify. E.g., I exploit lots of consumer kit (think: dirt cheap, almost disposable) for UI's. As long as I can port my "UI services" to <whatever>, I don't care exactly *what* that <whatever> happens to be. [Of course, I go to great pains to decouple the implementation from the supporting hardware/software/OS] E.g., I use a variety of PDA's (in lieu of smart phones) as little "wireless graphic terminals". They run different (native) OS's but each run the same look-and-feel "application" (that implements the GUI). This week, port the GUI to a rescued Nook Color. Different manufacturer, size, shape, battery life, etc. But, same "application" (which, obviously, knows how to adapt to different screen sizes and aspect ratios). *Next* week, it may be a Toshiba tablet, etc.
> Similarly, as consumer products they aren't really set up for > the rough and tumble of industrial life, nor are they designed for > integrating into larger systems. So they are 'computers', but they aren't > /industrial/ computers,
You'd be amazed at how many industrial processes are controlled by consumer kit! <frown> Typically, a developer got the "Great Idea" that he could leverage all this UI stuff by repurposing some COTS product. *But*, then followed this with the Bad Idea of developing the product *on* that device -- inheriting all of its limitations (instead of just cherry-picking the good bits). Sort of like the "let's use a COTS SBC -- but, STILL have to design and layout our own custom 'daughter card' cuz the SBC doesn't have just the right mix of I/O's". (Then, being stuck with that particular SBC because you didn't make a deliberate effort to decouple the design from the base hardware/software)
Reply by Theo Markettos December 7, 20162016-12-07
Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> wrote:
> The PC/apple/tablet things are not SBC-s not because they are not > single board, many of them are that nowadays. > > But they are not computers - a computer you can program including its > coming out of reset, how to initialize its peripherals etc. > These are computerized TV-sets or whatever name one chooses > for todays entertainment/office hardware.
It really depends what you want to do, but arguably they're just fine as computers. They run code that you load on to them. You might not replace the operating system, but then there are lots of embedded systems that run Windows and nobody tinkers with the bootloader. They have their niche, just like any system. For instance they're really good at graphics and UI - much better than anything you could cook up by writing bare metal code. Where once a piece of equipment would have an 8-bit microcontroller, a two line LCD and three buttons you press in bewildering combinations, or later Windows XP with keyboard and mouse, now it can have a touch panel and run Android or Windows 10. Notwithstanding that you can compile your Android kernel and OS from source if you really want to, an app can implement your application on top of the facilities provided by the base OS. If you need special hardware you can add that and write the necessary drivers. However I'd say one distinction is about supply chain. These are /consumer/ products - here today, gone tomorrow. Likely Android will be around for years in some form (like Windows CE is still), but basing your product on the hottest tablet of 2017 is pretty risky because it likely won't last more than a year. Similarly, as consumer products they aren't really set up for the rough and tumble of industrial life, nor are they designed for integrating into larger systems. So they are 'computers', but they aren't /industrial/ computers, Theo
Reply by Jack December 6, 20162016-12-06
Il giorno marted&igrave; 6 dicembre 2016 09:28:13 UTC+1, dp ha scritto:
> On 06.12.2016 &#1075;. 09:30, Jack wrote: > > Il giorno marted&igrave; 6 dicembre 2016 03:44:32 UTC+1, dp ha scritto: > > > >>> Well, as to that, you *could* program one of today's computers, re-flash > >>> the BIOS and do whatever you want. You could do something similar with > >>> what's usually referred to as an SBC, but many of them are come > >>> pre-programmed with some operating system and what programming you do is > >>> on a higher level. > >>> > >> > >> Would you have all the datasheets needed to be able to do that? > >> > >> Dimiter > > > > Intel processors datasheet are freely available: > > http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/processors/core/core-i7-900-ee-and-desktop-processor-series-datasheet-vol-1.html > > > > happy reading ;) > > > > Bye Jack > > > > I know their processors' documentation is public. > How is it with the peripheral chips, e.g. display > controllers - theirs and from other vendors. > > How is it with the wifi chips you find on this "SBC", are > they documented.
You mean like the SoC of the RPi? (or at least the GPU part). Bye Jack
Reply by Dimiter_Popoff December 6, 20162016-12-06
On 06.12.2016 &#1075;. 09:30, Jack wrote:
> Il giorno marted&igrave; 6 dicembre 2016 03:44:32 UTC+1, dp ha scritto: > >>> Well, as to that, you *could* program one of today's computers, re-flash >>> the BIOS and do whatever you want. You could do something similar with >>> what's usually referred to as an SBC, but many of them are come >>> pre-programmed with some operating system and what programming you do is >>> on a higher level. >>> >> >> Would you have all the datasheets needed to be able to do that? >> >> Dimiter > > Intel processors datasheet are freely available: > http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/processors/core/core-i7-900-ee-and-desktop-processor-series-datasheet-vol-1.html > > happy reading ;) > > Bye Jack >
I know their processors' documentation is public. How is it with the peripheral chips, e.g. display controllers - theirs and from other vendors. How is it with the wifi chips you find on this "SBC", are they documented. Dimiter
Reply by Jack December 6, 20162016-12-06
Il giorno marted&igrave; 6 dicembre 2016 03:44:32 UTC+1, dp ha scritto:

> > Well, as to that, you *could* program one of today's computers, re-flash > > the BIOS and do whatever you want. You could do something similar with > > what's usually referred to as an SBC, but many of them are come > > pre-programmed with some operating system and what programming you do is > > on a higher level. > > > > Would you have all the datasheets needed to be able to do that? > > Dimiter
Intel processors datasheet are freely available: http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/processors/core/core-i7-900-ee-and-desktop-processor-series-datasheet-vol-1.html happy reading ;) Bye Jack
Reply by Dimiter_Popoff December 5, 20162016-12-05
On 05.12.2016 &#1075;. 17:52, Phil Martel wrote:
> On 12/5/2016 6:28, Dimiter_Popoff wrote: >> On 05.12.2016 &#1075;. 12:46, Jack wrote: >>> Il giorno luned&igrave; 5 dicembre 2016 11:34:02 UTC+1, Boudewijn Dijkstra ha >>> scritto: >>>> Op Thu, 01 Dec 2016 13:26:46 +0100 schreef Jack <jack4747@gmail.com>: >>>>> Il giorno gioved&igrave; 1 dicembre 2016 12:00:22 UTC+1, Ozzie ha scritto: >>>>> >>>>>>>>> what is SBC? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Single-Board Computer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ah, thanks. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now you know Jack! ;) >>>>> >>>>> well yes. >>>>> but someone could argue that also a PC is a SBC :D >>>> >>>> If the RAM isn't soldered on the board, it isn't an SBC. Also >>>> consider a >>>> PC from the 90s, which doesn't function without a separate graphics >>>> card >>>> and a CPU which can be considered a 'board' by itself. >>> >>> Speaking about pc 25 years old is not really useful in this case or we >>> can just put also Commodores, Amigas, Ataris in the basket (they all >>> had soldered ram and integrated gpu). >>> >>> In any case Apple laptops built in the last let say 5 years have >>> soldered CPU AND ram so under your definition are SBCs... >>> Also the new Microsoft Surface Pro seems to have soldered ram... >>> >>> so maybe a different definition is necessary. >>> >>> Bye Jack >>> >> >> The PC/apple/tablet things are not SBC-s not because they are not >> single board, many of them are that nowadays. >> >> But they are not computers - a computer you can program including its >> coming out of reset, how to initialize its peripherals etc. >> These are computerized TV-sets or whatever name one chooses >> for todays entertainment/office hardware. >> >> Dimiter >> >> ------------------------------------------------------ >> Dimiter Popoff, TGI http://www.tgi-sci.com >> ------------------------------------------------------ >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/ > > Well, as to that, you *could* program one of today's computers, re-flash > the BIOS and do whatever you want. You could do something similar with > what's usually referred to as an SBC, but many of them are come > pre-programmed with some operating system and what programming you do is > on a higher level. >
Would you have all the datasheets needed to be able to do that? Dimiter
Reply by Paul Rubin December 5, 20162016-12-05
upsidedown@downunder.com writes:
> Since when is a "Graphical" card a requirement for PC ? At a minimum > 24 lines with 32/40/64/80 characters on a line was considered > adequate.
Today it's not needed at all. Most of the PCs that I use now are headless servers sitting in remote data centers.
Reply by December 5, 20162016-12-05
On Mon, 05 Dec 2016 11:24:09 +0100, "Boudewijn Dijkstra"
<sp4mtr4p.boudewijn@indes.com> wrote:

>Op Thu, 01 Dec 2016 13:26:46 +0100 schreef Jack <jack4747@gmail.com>: >> Il giorno gioved&#4294967295; 1 dicembre 2016 12:00:22 UTC+1, Ozzie ha scritto: >> >>> >>> what is SBC? >>> >> >>> >> Single-Board Computer >>> > >>> > ah, thanks. >>> >>> Now you know Jack! ;) >> >> well yes. >> but someone could argue that also a PC is a SBC :D
Any laptop should qualify. In the old days SBCs had RS232 or 20 mA connections for connecting "dumb" (VT100) serial terminals. These days Raspberry etc. uses Ethernet for exactly the same purpose (Telnet) without having keyboards or displays of their own. In the 1970s boards like Intel SDK-85 contained in addition to the CPU functionality also some hex keyboard input as well as hex displays and additionally some wire wrap areas on the board. Thus capable of true stand lone capability.
>If the RAM isn't soldered on the board, it isn't an SBC. Also consider a >PC from the 90s, which doesn't function without a separate graphics card >and a CPU which can be considered a 'board' by itself.
Since when is a "Graphical" card a requirement for PC ? At a minimum 24 lines with 32/40/64/80 characters on a line was considered adequate.
Reply by Phil Martel December 5, 20162016-12-05
On 12/5/2016 6:28, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
> On 05.12.2016 &#1075;. 12:46, Jack wrote: >> Il giorno luned&igrave; 5 dicembre 2016 11:34:02 UTC+1, Boudewijn Dijkstra ha >> scritto: >>> Op Thu, 01 Dec 2016 13:26:46 +0100 schreef Jack <jack4747@gmail.com>: >>>> Il giorno gioved&igrave; 1 dicembre 2016 12:00:22 UTC+1, Ozzie ha scritto: >>>> >>>>>>>> what is SBC? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Single-Board Computer >>>>>> >>>>>> ah, thanks. >>>>> >>>>> Now you know Jack! ;) >>>> >>>> well yes. >>>> but someone could argue that also a PC is a SBC :D >>> >>> If the RAM isn't soldered on the board, it isn't an SBC. Also >>> consider a >>> PC from the 90s, which doesn't function without a separate graphics card >>> and a CPU which can be considered a 'board' by itself. >> >> Speaking about pc 25 years old is not really useful in this case or we >> can just put also Commodores, Amigas, Ataris in the basket (they all >> had soldered ram and integrated gpu). >> >> In any case Apple laptops built in the last let say 5 years have >> soldered CPU AND ram so under your definition are SBCs... >> Also the new Microsoft Surface Pro seems to have soldered ram... >> >> so maybe a different definition is necessary. >> >> Bye Jack >> > > The PC/apple/tablet things are not SBC-s not because they are not > single board, many of them are that nowadays. > > But they are not computers - a computer you can program including its > coming out of reset, how to initialize its peripherals etc. > These are computerized TV-sets or whatever name one chooses > for todays entertainment/office hardware. > > Dimiter > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Dimiter Popoff, TGI http://www.tgi-sci.com > ------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/
Well, as to that, you *could* program one of today's computers, re-flash the BIOS and do whatever you want. You could do something similar with what's usually referred to as an SBC, but many of them are come pre-programmed with some operating system and what programming you do is on a higher level. -- Best wishes, --Phil pomartel At Comcast(ignore_this) dot net
Reply by Dimiter_Popoff December 5, 20162016-12-05
On 05.12.2016 &#1075;. 12:46, Jack wrote:
> Il giorno luned&igrave; 5 dicembre 2016 11:34:02 UTC+1, Boudewijn Dijkstra ha scritto: >> Op Thu, 01 Dec 2016 13:26:46 +0100 schreef Jack <jack4747@gmail.com>: >>> Il giorno gioved&igrave; 1 dicembre 2016 12:00:22 UTC+1, Ozzie ha scritto: >>> >>>>>>> what is SBC? >>>>>> >>>>>> Single-Board Computer >>>>> >>>>> ah, thanks. >>>> >>>> Now you know Jack! ;) >>> >>> well yes. >>> but someone could argue that also a PC is a SBC :D >> >> If the RAM isn't soldered on the board, it isn't an SBC. Also consider a >> PC from the 90s, which doesn't function without a separate graphics card >> and a CPU which can be considered a 'board' by itself. > > Speaking about pc 25 years old is not really useful in this case or we can just put also Commodores, Amigas, Ataris in the basket (they all had soldered ram and integrated gpu). > > In any case Apple laptops built in the last let say 5 years have soldered CPU AND ram so under your definition are SBCs... > Also the new Microsoft Surface Pro seems to have soldered ram... > > so maybe a different definition is necessary. > > Bye Jack >
The PC/apple/tablet things are not SBC-s not because they are not single board, many of them are that nowadays. But they are not computers - a computer you can program including its coming out of reset, how to initialize its peripherals etc. These are computerized TV-sets or whatever name one chooses for todays entertainment/office hardware. Dimiter ------------------------------------------------------ Dimiter Popoff, TGI http://www.tgi-sci.com ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/