Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
>
> On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:23:56 -0000, you wrote:
>
> >I will keep you guessing agewise! (for now anyway)
>
> Younger than me, it looks.
>
> >The 1st micro that
> >I got involved with was a CPM machine,
>
> My first micro was the one I soldered and assembled myself, my
> Altair 8800. My recollection is that I couldn't think of
> anything else when I first read the article in Popular
> Electronics -- memory tells me that this was in December of
> 1974. (I got a new job which started Jan 6th, 1975, which I
> expected to have pay for this.) I think it was a two-parter
> article, with the 2nd installation in January, 1975 -- the month
> I ordered my about $400 kit.
>
> However, prior to that, I'd been using such computers as the
> PDP-8 and the IBM 1130.
>
> My very first computer was the Bell Labs Cardiac, developed in
> 1969. It was a "paper computer" and you moved a little
"bug"
> around from slot to slot and executed the instructions manually.
> My first exposure to the Cardaic was in 1971.
>
> >It had 32k ram
>
> Egads. It wasn't for many years before I ever got to see
> anything with that darned much memory -- my Altair came with 256
> bytes (exactly one static ram chip) and the front panel board
> had four sockets for them, so three were empty. I think it was
> almost another year before I purchased two 4K dynamic ram cards
> from Altair -- and they didn't even work, after building them.
> Getting them to work took me more than another month and a lot
> of learning. Just about in time for Altair to send me a nice
> little notice telling me about their bad design and the
> "patches" I needed to make. Downside was that I'd already
> figured them out and it cost me a lot of time. Upside was that
> I had figured them out and I'd learned a lot about electronics
> which would help me.
>
> I think it wasn't until 1979 before I actually owned something
> with 32k ram. And it was "high cotton," to me, believe you me.
>
> >a Z80 (don't remember clock speed),
>
> Yeah, you lucky slob. You have *no* idea how much easier it was
> to design a circuit with the Z80 in it, as compared with the
> 8080A (or even the 8085. And the extra instructions were nice.
I hated the Z80, I liked the 8080/5, I loved the 6800, and the 6502 but
i LURVVVED the 6809. Back in the UK, in my Mums attic I've got a neat
collection opf unused 4004's and 8008's. One of my first
'computers' was
built with discrete logic RTL, and a small magnetic core memory.
(courtesy of the ARMY) It's most useful task was as a foot warmer. One
of the most fun programs I wrote was Star Wars tacked onto the end of a
ladder logic program running the Cat regen tower on the worlds largest
gas processing plant in Saudi (1981). There was space, and the stupid
thing actually ran through the whole core anyway (yes CORE 8X briefcase
sized chunks of magnetic core memory). It amused the operators on long
boring shifts. The most compact high level language program was probably
an ACOL bidding system in 128 words on a CASIO pocket programmable. IIRC
that was stack oriented reverse polish style.
In 1981 it was the closest thing around to a truly portable computer, I
actually had a version in a watch, picked up in Bahrain, and never seen
since. I mourn their passing. They were simple devices without the PDA
crap you don't need, and great for simple programs. Yes, I know I could
get an HP, but I don't know why, I've never liked HP.
Al
Reply by grahamgollings●June 27, 20032003-06-27
Tim,
Here is some nonsense code and the disassembler output. If you want
the results of some real code post it and I will compile - return.
Note. R7 top of data stack, R5 is data stack pointer
Graham.
: add3 ( n n n - n ) + + ;
: give3 ( - n ) $11 $22 $33 add3 ;
: Mult ( - n ) give3 give3 * ;
[ ADD3 ]
E000 ADD @+R5 , R7
E002 ADD @+R5 , R7
E004 RET ok
[ GIVE3 ]
E006 SUB #2 , R5
E008 MOV R7 , 0000(R5)
E00C MOV #0011 , R7
E010 SUB #2 , R5
E012 MOV R7 , 0000(R5)
E016 MOV #0022 , R7
E01A SUB #2 , R5
E01C MOV R7 , 0000(R5)
E020 MOV #0033 , R7
E024 CALL #[ ADD3 ]
E028 RET ok
see mult
[ MULT ]
E02A CALL #[ GIVE3 ]
E02E CALL #[ GIVE3 ]
E032 CALL #[ * ]
E036 RET ok
Reply by grahamgollings●June 27, 20032003-06-27
Hi Jonathan,
Gosh you make me feel bad now. At the time I was in the then
fledgling UK oil business and money wasn't really the issue.
This is the first time for many years that I have tried to recall the
events. I have just made another post with a bit more stuff that I
remembered. It was 34 years ago, but as a couple of people point out
the Z80 didn't come along till later. I just remember that latter
part of the history better!
I only wish that I had kept some of the hardware, especially the
early parts. I remember we used Mostek too.
Anyway back to reality - I have to do some quotes.
Graham.
Reply by grahamgollings●June 27, 20032003-06-27
Hi John,
It feels like 35 years !
I woke up this morning, read your post. This got me thinking about
the history - dates -etc. I can now be a bit more precise.
The first system I got involved in for embedded use was an Intel SBC,
a great big PCB, complete with an ICE. I don't remember if the ICE
was part of the SBC or a seperate box. - This was the period that I
used the telex machine for HMI.
Later we purchased STD bus parts, adopted the Z80, bought another
ICE, upgraded to a VT100 terminal and floppies,I suspect that this
was the time that CPM came into the picture.
This all happened while I was in Great Yarmouth - UK, when I was
involved in the oil business. The equipment was used to do underwater
internal pipe profile measurements.
I was there for 1969-1977. So this fits in with what you said.
I wish I had the money (with compound interest) that we spent then!
Graham.
> 35 years ago? I don't think CP/M was around
in 1968. More like
late 1975,
> early 1976, based on the CPM 1.0 manuals I'm
familiar with. CP/M
2.2 was
> 1978, IIRC. http://sneezy.usu.edu/~ivie/cpm2
>
> --John
Reply by aekalman●June 27, 20032003-06-27
--- In msp430@msp4..., Jonathan Kirwan <jkirwan@e...> wrote:
> Anyway, apologies to Andrew. No slights were
intended.
Apology accepted.
--Andrew
Reply by Jonathan Kirwan●June 27, 20032003-06-27
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:08:13 -0700, you wrote:
>Hey man, I should take some blame for those phrases
like that to begin
>with. Sorry about that.
Hehe. Yes, it was you I got that phrase from. Andrew has my
apology for it, for what it's worth. I honestly had no
nefarious intent, though. And I am honestly confused by his
reaction. But I accept that he had one and I do apologize for
my part in that.
>Jonathan, business decision is obviously a complex
process. Whether a
>vendor decides to work with another supporter or not depends on a great
>number of factors. In this example, if we were to get involved with Andrew,
>obviously it will be because we think it makes sense for us to do so.
Completely agreed.
>Whether Andrew uses his income to "feed his
children" or to buy a nice
>fancy sports car, or whatever, is immaterial.
hehe. Abolutely. I was only a metaphor to me. Not a real
thing.
>IOW, my decision will solely
>be based on its beneficial factors to me, and not to him. Obviously he will
>make his decision in similar vein. An agreement will only come about when
>both parties think it is beneficial to them in their own ways. Nothing more
>and nothing less.
Indeed. Nothing I said disagrees with this. I was just
exploring it, myself -- thinking out loud, so to speak. And I
think I've a right to do that much and neither of you are
obligated in any way to clarify anything to me.
But I can still talk out loud.
Anyway, apologies to Andrew. No slights were intended.
Jon
Reply by Jonathan Kirwan●June 27, 20032003-06-27
On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 03:39:12 -0000, you wrote:
>I was happy to continue to this thread until
>
>--- In msp430@msp4..., Jonathan Kirwan <jkirwan@e...> wrote:
>> Personally, I'd rather not see Quadravox up
>> their price point (or delay lowering it) just because they
>> bought themselves into a "feed this guy's children"
contract and
>> have to force all of us to carry the load.
>
>I will not tolerate any derogatory remarks about my children or their
>welfare.
>
>Jonathan, consider my input on this thread closed.
Sorry, I was only quoting from someone else, actually. Nothing
mean meant in it at all, but apparently you are reading more
into it. You have my most sincere apologies, as best I can give
without understanding your reaction.
Jon
Reply by Jonathan Kirwan●June 27, 20032003-06-27
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:23:56 -0000, you wrote:
>I will keep you guessing agewise! (for now anyway)
Younger than me, it looks.
>The 1st micro that
>I got involved with was a CPM machine,
My first micro was the one I soldered and assembled myself, my
Altair 8800. My recollection is that I couldn't think of
anything else when I first read the article in Popular
Electronics -- memory tells me that this was in December of
1974. (I got a new job which started Jan 6th, 1975, which I
expected to have pay for this.) I think it was a two-parter
article, with the 2nd installation in January, 1975 -- the month
I ordered my about $400 kit.
However, prior to that, I'd been using such computers as the
PDP-8 and the IBM 1130.
My very first computer was the Bell Labs Cardiac, developed in
1969. It was a "paper computer" and you moved a little
"bug"
around from slot to slot and executed the instructions manually.
My first exposure to the Cardaic was in 1971.
>It had 32k ram
Egads. It wasn't for many years before I ever got to see
anything with that darned much memory -- my Altair came with 256
bytes (exactly one static ram chip) and the front panel board
had four sockets for them, so three were empty. I think it was
almost another year before I purchased two 4K dynamic ram cards
from Altair -- and they didn't even work, after building them.
Getting them to work took me more than another month and a lot
of learning. Just about in time for Altair to send me a nice
little notice telling me about their bad design and the
"patches" I needed to make. Downside was that I'd already
figured them out and it cost me a lot of time. Upside was that
I had figured them out and I'd learned a lot about electronics
which would help me.
I think it wasn't until 1979 before I actually owned something
with 32k ram. And it was "high cotton," to me, believe you me.
>a Z80 (don't remember clock speed),
Yeah, you lucky slob. You have *no* idea how much easier it was
to design a circuit with the Z80 in it, as compared with the
8080A (or even the 8085. And the extra instructions were nice.
My first experience with the Z80 was the TRS-80, sometime in
early 1978, where I actually got to have 4k of memory to work
with. Damn thing was too expensive, though. I couldn't afford
the price, myself. So I used someone else's. I don't actually
remember the cpu speed of the TRS-80, but I do think I remember
the speed of the Z-80's I was hearing about at the time, which
was 2.5MHz. Could be that was the speed you got to see. Or the
4MHz, which came out a little later, if memory serves.
If your first foray was into the Z80, that dates it to no
earlier than late 1976, or so. I don't think I even heard of
the Z80 until sometime in 1977.
You must have been born with a silver spoon in your mouth!
>a telex machine to edit and punch tape to.
Yup. Silver spoon. For me? It was some hard, bat-handled
switches. I actually got calluses from the Altair front panel.
I practically drooled over the Imsai -- and the reason? --
mostly because the darned thing had these wonderful, wide
plastic switches on the front panel! Oh, my fingers would love
it. I still have a box of those switches, which I bought for my
Altair after seeing an Imsai.
And I had to *make* my own paper tape reader! Punch? I had to
borrow those, when I could. There was no way I could afford a
KSR-35 or even an ASR-33, back then. Much as I wished I could
have.
>Writing assembler in binary format.
Did that in my head. You memorized the instruction formats and
coded onto the front panel with a deposit switch. With my 8k
dynamic ram, eventually working with hard work, I would actually
sit there in front of it for hours toggling in code.
>I later replaced the punch tape with a cassette
tape recorder.
Yes, the TRS-80 came with an interface for that. Nice little
tape recorder I may still have in a junk box somewhere. That
recorder was actually affordable, back then. Used one with my
first IBM PC to save programs, too, when I later got one. The
exact same recorder I'd been using with the TRS-80.
>Then the final step, I got 2x 8" Shutgard
correction... Shugart, I believe. Screw drives. The Persei's
were the first voice-coil floopy drive, if I recall, and a
little more expensive, too. But Shugart's worked more reliably,
from my experience, although more slowly.
The 8" floppies were 80k, if memory serves.
>floppy drives and upgraded the ram to 128kb (
blistering
>speed)
I wish I had your money back then! I didn't see 128kb outside
of some business purchase until... hmm... well, 1984 or 1985, I
think. I couldn't afford that kind of luxury until the prices
had dropped out of the ram market and Intel began seeing more
money from their cpu business than their memory business, which
transitioned (crossed over) for them in 1985.
>That got me into assembler coding at source level.
Surprisingly, I was using assembler source *long* before that.
I had written a time-shared assembler for the HP 2000F system in
1975. Completed it in September, that year, and made it
available to our local school system then. That assembler was
one thing I was very proud of -- I started on a Friday evening
and had it and the linker completely finished by the end of that
Sunday. Less than three days hard work!
After that, I used various assembler tools (and, of course, Bill
Gate's "paper tape BASIC" on an Altair.) But mostly on other
people's machines until I actually managed to get something
decent of my own with floppy storage -- which was about
December, 1979.
>I will never forget how fast the 1st files
>opened and saved on those 8" drives.
Yeah. 100's of ms was pretty nice, I suppose. Especially
compared with my dectape. But not impressive. I'd seen faster
and wished I could afford them. Like the RK05, for example.
But those things were expensive.
>As I got more advanced I ported a Pascal and later
helped write a C
>compiler to run under CPM to make embedded applications. No debuggers
>in sight. This must have been 35 years ago........
Hehe. Not quite. But it may seem like that. ;)
><snip>
Jon
Reply by Paul Curtis●June 27, 20032003-06-27
Hi,
> I've just received some info regarding the
LPC201x series. It
> looks very interesting, but from what I can see the tools are
> way too expensive to evaluate, and the limited time high
> priced tools strike me as a rip off. I don't have an
> application for it, but if it was able to perform within
> certain criteria then I may. As I've stated once before my
> evaluation of processing power is related to actual current
> consumed to perform a function.
Has anybody been able to source a board with one of these devices on?
As a company we'd like to support the part with our tools (which would
be straightforward) but are having difficulty finding it in the wild.
-- Paul.
