Hello Lewin,

>>Yes, but what I heard is that they don't favor ROM devices anymore. That
>>is why I find the claim on their web site "starting at $0.49" a bit
>>strange. The flash devices really start at almost twice that and when I
> 
> Oh, that's not the case at all. You just aren't a big enough customer -
> the flash devices can indeed be had for < $0.50...
> 

That is good to know. I wish they had some indicators on their web sites 
as to 'how low it can go'. Like 100k and 1M budgetary pricing. I just 
was told that this kind of pricing wasn't really for flash parts.

> 
>>The other category that seems to have all but disappeared from many of
>>the lines is OTP. For volume production of a low cost device you really
>>don't need re-programmability.
> 
> I think that EPROM is not a fashionable technology these days. But some
> vendors do still offer OTP EPROM. In some cases, the "mask ROM" parts
> from these vendors are actually OTPs.
> 

Whatever is cheapest is fine. The old 8051 varieties were OTP, IIRC it 
was simply PROM in there and not EPROM. As long as it doesn't require a 
$30k NRE for a mask job. But even with the NRE it sometimes made sense 
to do it.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Joerg wrote:
>
> >  TI have ROM devices, so they at least understand ROM flows.
> >
>
> Yes, but what I heard is that they don't favor ROM devices anymore. That
> is why I find the claim on their web site "starting at $0.49" a bit
> strange. The flash devices really start at almost twice that and when I

Oh, that's not the case at all. You just aren't a big enough customer -
the flash devices can indeed be had for < $0.50...

> The other category that seems to have all but disappeared from many of
> the lines is OTP. For volume production of a low cost device you really
> don't need re-programmability.

I think that EPROM is not a fashionable technology these days. But some
vendors do still offer OTP EPROM. In some cases, the "mask ROM" parts
from these vendors are actually OTPs.

Hello Jim,

>> I'll probably have to use TI because I need 16bits and a HW 
>> multiplier. So I'll check if they do that. With ROM parts life was 
>> easier but my distributor told me that is strongly discouraged these 
>> days. Unfortunately that means I have to use the more expensive flash 
>> devices.
> 
>  Some vendors (mainly in asia) have what I'd call ROM-Flow - that is
> either FLASH, factory programmed,  relabeled as ROM, or custom
> labeled.
> 

In this case it's going to be a domestic processor so there wouldn't be 
an Asian source for it. It's all under their distribution control.

They do have a JTAG fuse.


>  TI have ROM devices, so they at least understand ROM flows.
> 

Yes, but what I heard is that they don't favor ROM devices anymore. That 
is why I find the claim on their web site "starting at $0.49" a bit 
strange. The flash devices really start at almost twice that and when I 
asked about it I was told that the trend is to migrate away from ROM. 
Bottomline is that their MSP430 can't compete against some Atmel and 
Microchip devices right now except where you really need their math 
horsepower (which I do) or the low power while running a realtime clock.

The other category that seems to have all but disappeared from many of 
the lines is OTP. For volume production of a low cost device you really 
don't need re-programmability.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Joerg wrote:
> Hello Lewin,
> 
>> Most of the chip vendors offer this service. They will also offer
>> custom part numbering free above certain volumes. Microchip offers
>> serialization (SQTP) at an inexpensive price, I imagine other vendors
>> do something similar.
>>
> 
> I'll probably have to use TI because I need 16bits and a HW multiplier. 
> So I'll check if they do that. With ROM parts life was easier but my 
> distributor told me that is strongly discouraged these days. 
> Unfortunately that means I have to use the more expensive flash devices.

  Some vendors (mainly in asia) have what I'd call ROM-Flow - that is
either FLASH, factory programmed,  relabeled as ROM, or custom
labeled.

  That means they can skip some of the FLASH test process, and offer
a cheaper price. They also have longer leadtimes, which means it
can be used/priced for fab loading ( assumes big enough orders :)

  The really well designed FLASH devices, have a fuse that guarantees(?)
they can never self-pgm, so are (nearly) as reliable as true ROM.

  TI have ROM devices, so they at least understand ROM flows.

-jg

Hello Jim,

>> The best thing would be if manufacturers would do this. IIRC only 
>> Microchip offers that service but I am not sure.
> 
> Atmel also offers this, and they can unique-label parts for you
> too, if you want. [last time I checked]
> 

That's good to know. I'll have to check TI though since their MSP 
appears to be the only device so far that fits the bill. Unless we use DSP.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Hello Lewin,

> Most of the chip vendors offer this service. They will also offer
> custom part numbering free above certain volumes. Microchip offers
> serialization (SQTP) at an inexpensive price, I imagine other vendors
> do something similar.
> 

I'll probably have to use TI because I need 16bits and a HW multiplier. 
So I'll check if they do that. With ROM parts life was easier but my 
distributor told me that is strongly discouraged these days. 
Unfortunately that means I have to use the more expensive flash devices.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

> > material. The code image is delivered on physical media direct to the
> > manufacturer, who has a bonded courier pickup/delivery option.
> >
>
> That would make it complicated and would prbably exclude a lot of lower
> cost manufacturers.

Note that by "manufacturer" I meant the manufacturer of the IC.

> The best thing would be if manufacturers would do this. IIRC only
> Microchip offers that service but I am not sure.

Most of the chip vendors offer this service. They will also offer
custom part numbering free above certain volumes. Microchip offers
serialization (SQTP) at an inexpensive price, I imagine other vendors
do something similar.

The pricing noted earlier is also consistent with my experience,
including marking the parts with your own chosen part number.

I have never had issues with confidentiality for a couple of reasons:

1. I always execute NDAs with any outfit doing programming for me (and
indeed, any distributors that want to know my product roadmap, parts
used etc).

2. Any distributor/rep/<your choise of business name>  that did not
keep each customer's data confidential from the other would soon lose a
lot of business, including mine.

I have never sent programming tasks offshore - I have either had parts
programmed at distribution or done immediately prior to
reflow/installation at the CM. Of course, if I were in the multimillion
device business, I would have to rethink that.

Cheers

PeteS

Joerg wrote:
> Hello Lewin,
> 
> 
> The best thing would be if manufacturers would do this. IIRC only 
> Microchip offers that service but I am not sure.

Atmel also offers this, and they can unique-label parts for you
too, if you want. [last time I checked]

-jg

Hello Lewin,
> 
> If confidentiality is a big concern, don't go through distribution.
> There exists a product that contains confidential cryptographic
> material. The code image is delivered on physical media direct to the
> manufacturer, who has a bonded courier pickup/delivery option.
> 

That would make it complicated and would prbably exclude a lot of lower 
cost manufacturers.


> Last time I had a consumer electronics part programmed through
> distribution (in the USA), it was outsourced to some three-man company
> in Canada and the files went from distri to programming house by
> unencrypted email. This is for a million-piece order, mind you, not
> hobbyist quantity. There are no guarantees unless security is in your
> contract. Did your distri even sign an NDA with you let alone a
> guarantee of code confidentiality?
> 

We aren't quite there yet but they will have to. There would also be 
some prose in there as to them not outsourcing such jobs. No agreement, 
no sale.

The best thing would be if manufacturers would do this. IIRC only 
Microchip offers that service but I am not sure.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com