On 26 Nov 2005 18:18:45 +0200, David Brown
<david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> wrote:

>Chris Hills wrote:
>> In article <dm7ks2$a0q$1@news.cc.tut.fi>, Antti Keskinen
>> <antti.keskinen@ee.tpu.fi> writes
>>> Hello !
>>>
>>> "WYSIWYG" <nospam@bye.com> wrote in message 
>>> news:0HHhf.1260$Zb2.213@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> Its time for an EPROM emulator. I would prefer USB, >1MBit, fast down 
>>>> load,
>>>> Win2k/XP compatible tools, <40nS access time. What's everyone using out
>>>> there? Anything to recommned/Avoid?
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>> What the ? An EPROM emulator ? Now I gotta admit that I've currently dropped 
>>> off from what you're trying to achieve. As far as I know, emulators are 
>>> pieces of software that emulate specific devices. 
>> 
>> No. an Emulator (or an ICE) is hardware
>> A simulator is software.
>> 
>>>From this description, I 
>>> understand you want an embedded device which has a software code that can 
>>> act as an EPROM emulator, right ?
>>> I don't think any such devices exist, but I'm not absolutely certain..
>>> - Antti Keskinen 
>> 
>> An Eprom Emulator is a piece of hardware that was popular in prehistoric
>> times.... about 5 years or so ago and back.  This is when Eproms were in
>> DIL packages and took 40 minutes to erase.
>> 
>> It was in many ways the JTAG of it's day. 
>>  
>
>Although I used our real HPC emulator on occasion (until it died), I did 
>a great deal of my HPC testing and debugging using a row of DIL eeproms 
>and a UV erasor.  Since I only ever need to make minor changes to old 
>HPC programs these days, I use trial-and-error with that most oxymoronic 
>of devices - the OTP EPROM.
>

SST makes flash devices that directly replaces EPROMs. They can be
programmed in an EPROM programmer, but can be electrically  erased
before re-programming. 

Regards
  Anton Erasmus

In article <XEt3i5C$ChiDFAFS@phaedsys.demon.co.uk>, Chris Hills
<chris@phaedsys.org> writes
>In article <dmcm2f$qs4$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>, Paul E. Bennett
><peb@amleth.demon.co.uk> writes
>>Gene S. Berkowitz wrote:
>>
>>>> I looked into what one of my favourite Forth Vendor's was selling these
>>>> days and found that they currently sell the PROME-ICE device. This is a
>>>> more direct link.
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.promice.com/
>>> 
>>> My team has used PROMIce emulators for over 10 years.
>>> While the emulators are well built and reliable, in the past
>>> couple of years the company seems to have contracted or changed
>>> ownership, to where it was difficult to get a salesman on the phone, and
>>> the web site was unreliable.
>>> 
>>> Unlike virtually every other development tool, PROMIces have never
>>> gotten less expensive, and as near as I can tell, still don't support
>>> USB.  The parallel port driver required for use with NT/2000 is
>>> difficult to install correctly, and, for me anyway, caused BSOD
>>> (although the serial link is very reliable, although slow).
>>> 
>>> Rather than offering 3.3V emulators, these require a level-shifting
>>> adapter, which makes the already fragile cabling to the embedded device
>>> a complete pain.
>>> 
>>> Your mileage may vary.
>>
>>It's not one I am using (my old set-up from my Forth vendor is still working
>>for me from the parallel port). I guess that I should probably consider an
>>update to an ethernet connected one as legacy style interfaces become rarer
>>on available PC hardware.
>
>That is the problem the disappearing parallel and serial port.  so many
>bits of kit used the parallel and serial ports. 
>
>I could make all sorts of gizmos with an RS232 interface but I can't
>just "knock up" something with USB or ethernet. A great pity.
>

Some one sent me an off list emails saying: "USB is easy use the FT232BM
chip."

As it was one of these numbered aol accounts it is probably from some
one who works for the company that makes them.

The part in question is about 6USD and is a LQFP..... 

So as I said: It is much easier to use serial, rather than in this case
use serial and then add an additional QFP part to convert to USB. 

If I wanted USB I would use a micro with USB on it. 

-- 
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org      www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

In article <438ae7a0.384621500@news.demon.co.uk>, Stephen Pelc
<stephenXXX@mpeforth.com> writes
>On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 16:15:15 +0000, "Paul E. Bennett"
><peb@amleth.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>It's not one I am using (my old set-up from my Forth vendor is still working
>>for me from the parallel port). I guess that I should probably consider an
>>update to an ethernet connected one as legacy style interfaces become rarer
>>on available PC hardware.
>
>As the probable Forth vendor for the Leburg EPROM emulator,
>which used an ISA card in the PC, let me comment on EPROM
>emulators.
>
>These days, EPROMs are mainly a legacy issue. Emulating Flash
>is just more expensive because of the variety of pinouts. In
>addition, most Flash is surface mounted, and a large number
>of CPUs use JTAG for programming external Flash.
>
>If you really want an EPROM/Flash memory emulator with
>an Ethernet or USB interface, a good one will be expensive.
>Most of our clients still using Leburg emulators keep an
>old PC alive to run them.
>
>Stephen

Hi,

It occurred to me that it might be a good idea to make up some NEW PC's
"for Engineering use". 

IE 3.5" and 5.25" floppy drives with 2 parallel and 2 serial ports on
them along with one or two other useful IO and the ability to triple
boot into DOS 6.22/Win3.1/ win98SE and probably Win2K. Thus they could
run all the old programs and talk to all the old peripherals. 

Obviously you would need a CD drive as well but I don't think it would
need a particularly lard hard drive. In those days if it came on 4 1.2
MB floppy's it was HUGE!

It might be worth pricing up as a stock item. 

What does anyone think? 


I do have 2 PC's with 5.25 and 3.5 drives on them "just in case" Also I
ALWAYS have serial and parallel on all the PC's. 

It takes a few moments to do an RS232 link to a peripheal... some one
emailed me and said it is not difficult to do USB with an XYZ MCU....
However I don't have one of those and most MCU have an rs232 port or can
do easily. Most PC#s have a terminal program and the RS232 code is easy
to do at either end (no enumeration etc)

-- 
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org      www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 16:15:15 +0000, "Paul E. Bennett"
<peb@amleth.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>It's not one I am using (my old set-up from my Forth vendor is still working
>for me from the parallel port). I guess that I should probably consider an
>update to an ethernet connected one as legacy style interfaces become rarer
>on available PC hardware.

As the probable Forth vendor for the Leburg EPROM emulator,
which used an ISA card in the PC, let me comment on EPROM
emulators.

These days, EPROMs are mainly a legacy issue. Emulating Flash
is just more expensive because of the variety of pinouts. In
addition, most Flash is surface mounted, and a large number
of CPUs use JTAG for programming external Flash.

If you really want an EPROM/Flash memory emulator with
an Ethernet or USB interface, a good one will be expensive.
Most of our clients still using Leburg emulators keep an
old PC alive to run them.

Stephen

-- 
Stephen Pelc, stephenXXX@mpeforth.com
MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691
web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads

In article <dmcm2f$qs4$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>, Paul E. Bennett
<peb@amleth.demon.co.uk> writes
>Gene S. Berkowitz wrote:
>
>>> I looked into what one of my favourite Forth Vendor's was selling these
>>> days and found that they currently sell the PROME-ICE device. This is a
>>> more direct link.
>>> 
>>> http://www.promice.com/
>> 
>> My team has used PROMIce emulators for over 10 years.
>> While the emulators are well built and reliable, in the past
>> couple of years the company seems to have contracted or changed
>> ownership, to where it was difficult to get a salesman on the phone, and
>> the web site was unreliable.
>> 
>> Unlike virtually every other development tool, PROMIces have never
>> gotten less expensive, and as near as I can tell, still don't support
>> USB.  The parallel port driver required for use with NT/2000 is
>> difficult to install correctly, and, for me anyway, caused BSOD
>> (although the serial link is very reliable, although slow).
>> 
>> Rather than offering 3.3V emulators, these require a level-shifting
>> adapter, which makes the already fragile cabling to the embedded device
>> a complete pain.
>> 
>> Your mileage may vary.
>
>It's not one I am using (my old set-up from my Forth vendor is still working
>for me from the parallel port). I guess that I should probably consider an
>update to an ethernet connected one as legacy style interfaces become rarer
>on available PC hardware.

That is the problem the disappearing parallel and serial port.  so many
bits of kit used the parallel and serial ports. 

I could make all sorts of gizmos with an RS232 interface but I can't
just "knock up" something with USB or ethernet. A great pity.


-- 
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org      www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Chris Hills wrote:

> In article <ISKhf.550$4a3.197@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com>, WYSIWYG
> <nospam@bye.com> writes
>>Thanks Chris,
>>
>>Various CPUs. I like to "repurpose" older electronics I find at my local
>>surplus shop. I look for boards ideally with socketed EPROMs so I can
>>easily extract the code and make changes. This started a long time ago
>>with a Defender video game. I have recently worked with the 6809, 6502,
>>Z80, 8085, 68HC11, HPC46003. The clock rates on these older processors are
>>slow 1-20MHz so the demands on the EPROM are not so great.
>>
>>Bob
> 
> I agree with you Go for am Eprom emulator... You may find old ICE for
> some one or two of those but an Eprom Emulator is the best compromise
> for that lot.
> 
> Have fun.
> 
> BTW a lot of the older eprom programmers  (Dataman s4 for example) also
> had an emulation mode.

While that is true, they only do one EPROM emulation at a time. If you need
to stack emulators for multi-prom devices then it becomes a somewhat more
expensive solution (eg 16 bit systems). I have the S3 as well as the
stackable system run from the parallel port.

-- 
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett ....................<email://peb@amleth.demon.co.uk>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy .....<http://www.amleth.demon.co.uk/>
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
Tel: +44 (0)1235-811095
Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
********************************************************************

Gene S. Berkowitz wrote:

>> I looked into what one of my favourite Forth Vendor's was selling these
>> days and found that they currently sell the PROME-ICE device. This is a
>> more direct link.
>> 
>> http://www.promice.com/
> 
> My team has used PROMIce emulators for over 10 years.
> While the emulators are well built and reliable, in the past
> couple of years the company seems to have contracted or changed
> ownership, to where it was difficult to get a salesman on the phone, and
> the web site was unreliable.
> 
> Unlike virtually every other development tool, PROMIces have never
> gotten less expensive, and as near as I can tell, still don't support
> USB.  The parallel port driver required for use with NT/2000 is
> difficult to install correctly, and, for me anyway, caused BSOD
> (although the serial link is very reliable, although slow).
> 
> Rather than offering 3.3V emulators, these require a level-shifting
> adapter, which makes the already fragile cabling to the embedded device
> a complete pain.
> 
> Your mileage may vary.

It's not one I am using (my old set-up from my Forth vendor is still working
for me from the parallel port). I guess that I should probably consider an
update to an ethernet connected one as legacy style interfaces become rarer
on available PC hardware.

As it stands, it is for the OP to filter and evaluate the various
suggestions that have already been made.

-- 
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett ....................<email://peb@amleth.demon.co.uk>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy .....<http://www.amleth.demon.co.uk/>
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
Tel: +44 (0)1235-811095
Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
********************************************************************

Try www.alptex.com.  They make a very quick Ethernet based emulator with
3/5V support and plenty of memory.  I use it here almost daily.

LC

In article <dm9ee0$ni4$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>, 
peb@amleth.demon.co.uk says...
> WYSIWYG wrote:
> 
> > Thanks Chris,
> > 
> > Various CPUs. I like to "repurpose" older electronics I find at my local
> > surplus shop. I look for boards ideally with socketed EPROMs so I can
> > easily extract the code and make changes. This started a long time ago
> > with a Defender video game. I have recently worked with the 6809, 6502,
> > Z80, 8085, 68HC11, HPC46003. The clock rates on these older processors are
> > slow 1-20MHz so the demands on the EPROM are not so great.
> > 
> > Bob
> 
> I looked into what one of my favourite Forth Vendor's was selling these days
> and found that they currently sell the PROME-ICE device. This is a more
> direct link.
> 
> http://www.promice.com/

My team has used PROMIce emulators for over 10 years.
While the emulators are well built and reliable, in the past
couple of years the company seems to have contracted or changed 
ownership, to where it was difficult to get a salesman on the phone, and 
the web site was unreliable.  

Unlike virtually every other development tool, PROMIces have never 
gotten less expensive, and as near as I can tell, still don't support
USB.  The parallel port driver required for use with NT/2000 is 
difficult to install correctly, and, for me anyway, caused BSOD 
(although the serial link is very reliable, although slow).

Rather than offering 3.3V emulators, these require a level-shifting 
adapter, which makes the already fragile cabling to the embedded device 
a complete pain.

Your mileage may vary.

--Gene

In article <ISKhf.550$4a3.197@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com>, WYSIWYG
<nospam@bye.com> writes
>Thanks Chris,
>
>Various CPUs. I like to "repurpose" older electronics I find at my local
>surplus shop. I look for boards ideally with socketed EPROMs so I can easily
>extract the code and make changes. This started a long time ago with a
>Defender video game. I have recently worked with the 6809, 6502, Z80, 8085,
>68HC11, HPC46003. The clock rates on these older processors are slow 1-20MHz
>so the demands on the EPROM are not so great.
>
>Bob

I agree with you Go for am Eprom emulator... You may find old ICE for
some one or two of those but an Eprom Emulator is the best compromise
for that lot.

Have fun. 

BTW a lot of the older eprom programmers  (Dataman s4 for example) also
had an emulation mode.


>
>"Chris Hills" <chris@phaedsys.org> wrote in message
>news:xMJ+gkAiD5hDFA45@phaedsys.demon.co.uk...
>> In article <0HHhf.1260$Zb2.213@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net>, WYSIWYG
>> <nospam@bye.com> writes
>> >Hello,
>> >
>> >Its time for an EPROM emulator. I would prefer USB, >1MBit, fast down
>load,
>> >Win2k/XP compatible tools, <40nS access time. What's everyone using out
>> >there? Anything to recommned/Avoid?
>> >
>> >Bob
>>
>> What is the target MCU?
>> You make find and old second hand ICE for it rather than an EPROM
>> emulator.
>> -- 
>> \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
>> \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
>> /\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org      www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
>> \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
>>
>>
>>
>
>

-- 
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org      www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/