Meindert Sprang wrote:

> "Ian Bell" <ruffrecords@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:dogf0n$io6$1@slavica.ukpost.com...
>> Think again - I did not say all Philips 8052 devices have a boot ROM
> loader
>> I said all Philips 8052 VARIANTS i.e. variants on the original 8052 from
>> Intel and not the straight copies.
> 
> Ah, now I know what you mean. And I am still not convinced. The Philips
> 80C451 has no bootloader and is not a direc copy of an existing Intel
> type..... :-)=)
> 
> Meindert

That part is discontinued. Try again.

Ian

"Ian Bell" <ruffrecords@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dogf0n$io6$1@slavica.ukpost.com...
> Think again - I did not say all Philips 8052 devices have a boot ROM
loader
> I said all Philips 8052 VARIANTS i.e. variants on the original 8052 from
> Intel and not the straight copies.

Ah, now I know what you mean. And I am still not convinced. The Philips
80C451 has no bootloader and is not a direc copy of an existing Intel
type..... :-)=)

Meindert

Meindert Sprang wrote:

> "Ian Bell" <ruffrecords@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:dof9ch$b60$1@slavica.ukpost.com...
>> Meindert Sprang wrote:
>>
>> > "Ian Bell" <ruffrecords@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> > news:doep4t$7mq$1@slavica.ukpost.com...
>> >> better to use a decent micro like the 8052 variants from Philips. All
>> >> come with a built in bootloader in ROM that does not eat into your
>> >> program space.
>> >
>> > All?
>> > The 87C52 I use doesn't have one....
>> >
>> > Meindert
>>
>> Please read more carefully. I said all the Philips VARIANTS
> 
> Nah Ian, you'll have to do better than that :-)
> The 8052 originates from Intel, so if you say "....8052 variants from
> Philips. All come.....", you don't say "some 8052 variants from Philips".
> This is standard math basics as taught on high-school. The way you said
> it, you implied that all variants from Philips have a bootloader. Damn,
> this is bad for my headache.....
> 
> Meindert

Think again - I did not say all Philips 8052 devices have a boot ROM loader
I said all Philips 8052 VARIANTS i.e. variants on the original 8052 from
Intel and not the straight copies.

Ian

"Ian Bell" <ruffrecords@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dof9ch$b60$1@slavica.ukpost.com...
> Meindert Sprang wrote:
>
> > "Ian Bell" <ruffrecords@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:doep4t$7mq$1@slavica.ukpost.com...
> >> better to use a decent micro like the 8052 variants from Philips. All
> >> come with a built in bootloader in ROM that does not eat into your
> >> program space.
> >
> > All?
> > The 87C52 I use doesn't have one....
> >
> > Meindert
>
> Please read more carefully. I said all the Philips VARIANTS

Nah Ian, you'll have to do better than that :-)
The 8052 originates from Intel, so if you say "....8052 variants from
Philips. All come.....", you don't say "some 8052 variants from Philips".
This is standard math basics as taught on high-school. The way you said it,
you implied that all variants from Philips have a bootloader. Damn, this is
bad for my headache.....

Meindert

Meindert Sprang wrote:

> "Ian Bell" <ruffrecords@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:doep4t$7mq$1@slavica.ukpost.com...
>> better to use a decent micro like the 8052 variants from Philips. All
>> come with a built in bootloader in ROM that does not eat into your
>> program space.
> 
> All?
> The 87C52 I use doesn't have one....
> 
> Meindert

Please read more carefully. I said all the Philips VARIANTS

Ian

johannblake@yahoo.com wrote On 12/22/05 00:01,:

> 
> This may sound like a dumb question, but if that is true, why?? Why
> wouldn't Microchip just burn the chips with the bootloader so that all
> of us poor developers only need to connect the chip to a serial port
> and do an instant download of our application code without requiring a
> hardware programmer. Am I missing something here?

Why don't you order it burned with a bootloader ? Most distributors
have automated part programmers, and can deliver the chip with your
bootloader on the part for little, or no price increase over the
raw part.

johannblake@yahoo.com wrote:
> I am just learning about Microchips's bootloader capabilites. What is
> not clear from any of the documentation I've read is whether the chips
> with bootloading capabilities ship with the bootloader firmware
> installed. Some posts in this group indicate that you have to add the
> firmware yourself with an ICSP, which of course requires a hardware
> programmer and the corresponding software.
> 
> This may sound like a dumb question, but if that is true, why?? Why
> wouldn't Microchip just burn the chips with the bootloader so that all
> of us poor developers only need to connect the chip to a serial port
> and do an instant download of our application code without requiring a
> hardware programmer. Am I missing something here?
> 
> One additional note. I read in Microchip's AN581 doc that they supply a
> program called Quick Programmer used to program / communicate with a
> bootloader. I couldn't find such a product on their web site. Has this
> been integrated into their MPLAB?


There are several ways to communicate with a processor.
Just that it has a UART doesn't mean this is the to be
used communication channel. SPI, external UART, Ethernet
come to my mind. Then when you already
communicate with a processor, then you'd wish the
bootloader to have the same protocol such that it fits
into your application.

Rene
-- 
Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar - http://www.ibrtses.com
& commercial newsgroups - http://www.talkto.net

In article <doep4t$7mq$1@slavica.ukpost.com>, Ian Bell
<ruffrecords@yahoo.com> writes
>Meindert Sprang wrote:
>
>> The point you miss is that some don't want a bootloader because it eats
>> memory. Also when Microchip installs a bootloader, does it meet your
>> requirements? Maybe you want a simple bootloader to load your programs,
>> but I would want a more secure bootloader with encryption so that people
>> who get my images to load, cannot disassemble those images and "steal" my
>> design. So in short: the requirements for a bootloader can be very
>> different for anyone and it would be therefore pointless to preload a
>> bootloader.
>
>better to use a decent micro like the 8052 variants from Philips. All come
>with a built in bootloader in ROM that does not eat into your program
>space.

I wish more microcontrollers would offer built-in ROM bootloaders.

How many products have you ever used or owned that offered flash
updating to the end user (motherboards, modems, satellite/freeview tv
decoders, etc.) that said somewhere in the flash upgrade procedure
instructions something to the effect of "interrupting this process may
permanently damage the product".

I interpret this to mean "we cost-cut the product so much that there is
no ROM bootloader and if you get a power-cut, any form of serious
glitch, crash, or any other type of failure, you might end up with a
dead product that needs to be returned to the factory", which is often
too expensive a repair option. It may only be a small risk, but I don't
want to tell my customer 9000 miles away that the hex file I just sent
him will work but that there is a small chance he'll have to send the
equipment here instead. Protecting a bootloader in a flash boot block
would help, but still isn't guaranteed. Adding an EPROM for this purpose
alone is too expensive.

By contrast, the last two major product developments I have done used
microcontrollers with primitive ROM bootloaders. These allow me to
absolutely guarantee a means by which the end user can recover from a
faulty flash upgrade attempt regardless of what state the contents of
flash are. If I require security or other features I can use the
primitive bootloader to download a complex bootloader and continue from
there to download the full firmware image.

I may only end up using the primitive bootloader as a fail-safe if the
regular upgrade process fails, but at least the option is there, and
effectively "hard-wired" into the chip. The ROM only needs to be
typically a few hundred bytes for a primitive bootloader and typically
an I/O pin to activate it on bootup.

"Ian Bell" <ruffrecords@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:doep4t$7mq$1@slavica.ukpost.com...
> better to use a decent micro like the 8052 variants from Philips. All come
> with a built in bootloader in ROM that does not eat into your program
> space.

All?
The 87C52 I use doesn't have one....

Meindert

Meindert Sprang wrote:

> The point you miss is that some don't want a bootloader because it eats
> memory. Also when Microchip installs a bootloader, does it meet your
> requirements? Maybe you want a simple bootloader to load your programs,
> but I would want a more secure bootloader with encryption so that people
> who get my images to load, cannot disassemble those images and "steal" my
> design. So in short: the requirements for a bootloader can be very
> different for anyone and it would be therefore pointless to preload a
> bootloader.
> 


better to use a decent micro like the 8052 variants from Philips. All come
with a built in bootloader in ROM that does not eat into your program
space.

IAn