On 21/01/2006 the venerable Ulf Samuelsson etched in runes:

.
.
> And if it works then you should get it in February
> since that is when the general sampling begins of that part.

Well, it's worked so far! First thing this morning I had an email fom a UK distributor requesting
further information about my application. When I replied that it was for compiler development and
testing and my ultimate annual quantity was zero, they were satisfied and have promised some parts
ASAP.

Keeping my fingers crossed.

-- 
John B

>> This is a problem in the UK there are a lot of small companies doing
>> design for large companies who manufacture in the far east.
>>
>> So often the contractor/consultant* or small design outfit have no
>> idea on the numbers that will be built by the people they are
>> designing for. Or where in the world it will be built.
>>
>> The UK looks as though it only need 500 parts a week whereas the Far
>> East use 500 a second. So the semiconductor companies put effort in
>> the palaces they see the demand not realising that the need is
>> actually being generated by small companies on the other side of the
>> planet.

Anyone using 500 per second is using close to 16 Bu parts per year.
Methinks they would want to negotiate fraction of cents on the price
before the final selecting is done.
Even with fractions of the amount, they will negotiate a price.

There is no reason for distributors to be at all interested in such
companies,
and every reason why a semiconductor company should be interested.
There are way to get internal credit for designs, even if production is in
far east.

I really don't care if it is produced locally or in China, but I know some
people that do.

>> This is one of the reason why the semiconductor companies and their
>> distis will work with tool distributors. The tool distributors know
>> who is developing on what parts or at least who is buying the tools.
>


-- 
Best Regards,
Ulf Samuelsson
ulf@a-t-m-e-l.com
This message is intended to be my own personal view and it
may or may not be shared by my employer Atmel Nordic AB

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 14:18:54 +0000, Chris Hills <chris@phaedsys.org>
wrote:

>In article <XMWAf.14728$Jd.1956@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net>, Joerg
><notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> writes
>>What I am not tolerating is that when there is no way to get a part 
>>anywhere else. Last case was a FET. I called the big company and told 
>>them I or my client need x samples and we'd pay for them and the 
>>shipping and all. They promised and then didn't come through. What they 
>>don't realize is that a small consultant can have a substantial impact 
>>on their bottomline when he then decides to design such a part out and 
>>use one from ONSemi instead. Those decisions are typically final, for 
>>the next ten years of mass production or so. It's big $$.
>
>
>This is a problem in the UK there are a lot of small companies doing
>design for large companies who manufacture in the far east.
>
>So often the contractor/consultant* or small design outfit have no idea
>on the numbers that will be built by the people they are designing for.
>Or where in the world it will be built.  
>
>The UK looks as though it only need 500 parts a week whereas the Far
>East use 500 a second. So the semiconductor companies put effort in the
>palaces they see the demand not realising that the need is actually
>being generated by small companies on the other side of the planet. 
>
>This is one of the reason why the semiconductor companies and their
>distis will work with tool distributors. The tool distributors know who
>is developing on what parts or at least who is buying the tools. 

But Chris, it still doesn't make much sense to me to buy a tool before
making a choice on a processor.

I secure samples well _before_ I make a design-in decision and I build
prototypes and test the CPUs, temperature ranges, their peripherals,
memory, and their I/O pin characteristics with assembly code using
free tools to do so, along with hardware, of course.  I will sometimes
also use the free period and reduced functionality compilers, if I
care about such things in making a decision (which is true only
sometimes.)

While it is true that a tool vendor will probably hear about and know
some information from me about my choice of parts, once I make a buy
decision for the software tool, this (1) isn't always the case,
because I don't always use a compiler but may use only the assembler
tools, and (2) and most importantly, I never wait that long in order
to secure sample parts.  Usually, I am sampling the CPU for internal
testing about a year before I actually need it and about a year before
I will need a for-fee compiler tool.  And longer wouldn't be unusual.

Depending on a software tool vendor for samples would require the
software tool vendors to be involved as a middle-man well before there
was a design decision to use the part, let alone their tools.  I don't
think that's going to work so well for the chip manufacturer.

Jon

In article <XMWAf.14728$Jd.1956@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net>, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> writes
>What I am not tolerating is that when there is no way to get a part 
>anywhere else. Last case was a FET. I called the big company and told 
>them I or my client need x samples and we'd pay for them and the 
>shipping and all. They promised and then didn't come through. What they 
>don't realize is that a small consultant can have a substantial impact 
>on their bottomline when he then decides to design such a part out and 
>use one from ONSemi instead. Those decisions are typically final, for 
>the next ten years of mass production or so. It's big $$.


This is a problem in the UK there are a lot of small companies doing
design for large companies who manufacture in the far east.

So often the contractor/consultant* or small design outfit have no idea
on the numbers that will be built by the people they are designing for.
Or where in the world it will be built.  

The UK looks as though it only need 500 parts a week whereas the Far
East use 500 a second. So the semiconductor companies put effort in the
palaces they see the demand not realising that the need is actually
being generated by small companies on the other side of the planet. 

This is one of the reason why the semiconductor companies and their
distis will work with tool distributors. The tool distributors know who
is developing on what parts or at least who is buying the tools. 

*
A consultant is a contractor who plays golf :-)
-- 
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org      www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Joerg wrote:

> What I am not tolerating is that when there is no way to get a part
> anywhere else. Last case was a FET. I called the big company and told
> them I or my client need x samples and we'd pay for them and the
> shipping and all. They promised and then didn't come through. What
> they don't realize is that a small consultant can have a substantial
> impact  on their bottomline when he then decides to design such a part out
and
> use one from ONSemi instead. Those decisions are typically final, for
> the next ten years of mass production or so. It's big $$.

When sample are out of stock they are out of stock.

I remember one day, when our largest customer
was promised samples 6 weeks after they had everything else
and I went to a local catalogue company shop (ELFA) and bought it the same
day
and sent it to the customer. That customer certainly appreciated
that the part were available.

People seems to interpret poor (mismanaged) sample departments as evil
intent.

>
> There is a reason why companies such as TI are more successful than
> others.
> Regards, Joerg
>
> http://www.analogconsultants.com

-- 
Best Regards,
Ulf Samuelsson
ulf@a-t-m-e-l.com
This message is intended to be my own personal view and it
may or may not be shared by my employer Atmel Nordic AB

Hello Tsevtan,


>>Joerg &#1085;&#1072;&#1087;&#1080;&#1089;&#1072;:
>>

Nice. Now I know my newsreader can display cyrillic letters :-)

> 
>>Suits me, I just would never buy stock in a company that thinks they can
>>survive by catering to only the big ones.
> 
> sad truth to all small co. is that they do just fine this way
> 

When I recall some of the speeches by CEOs of the big European ones I am 
not so sure their semiconductor business is doing that well. I still 
remember Jan Timmer from Philips (a long time ago) slamming his fist 
onto the pulpit and that if sales didn't improve there would have to be 
organizational consequences and all that. I could have told him about 
some of the things that they did wrong. The mistakes were nearly all in 
marketing.

Now I am not complaining about stuff you can buy from Digikey, Maplin, 
Reichelt. Or from Olimex :-)

What I am not tolerating is that when there is no way to get a part 
anywhere else. Last case was a FET. I called the big company and told 
them I or my client need x samples and we'd pay for them and the 
shipping and all. They promised and then didn't come through. What they 
don't realize is that a small consultant can have a substantial impact 
on their bottomline when he then decides to design such a part out and 
use one from ONSemi instead. Those decisions are typically final, for 
the next ten years of mass production or so. It's big $$.

There is a reason why companies such as TI are more successful than others.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 01:48:15 +0100, "Ulf Samuelsson"
<ulf@a-t-m-e-l.com> wrote:

>Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
>> On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 12:38:19 +0100, "Ulf Samuelsson"
>> <ulf@a-t-m-e-l.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I am not aware of any official policy within Atmel that says that
>>> samples should be reserved for large customers.
>>
>> I don't think it was his own motivations operating, Ulf.  He was
>> apologetic about having to ask the questions he did.  So I'm pretty
>> sure that he was told to ask.
>
>I have also been told to ask, but only for early samples
>and not for parts in general sampling.
>Early samples are always a special case and should not be confused
>with general sampling policy.

I can't say.  I ordered them when I read they were ready to be sampled
and I can't recall ever hearing the Atmel FAE mention that what I was
asking for was special in any way.  It probably would have made his
job easier with me, had he mentioned that I was asking for special
attention.  And I certainly didn't go into this expecting any special,
advance treatment.  It was a simple request for two samples of a part
that Atmel had openly advertised as sampling and where that was
confirmed by All American through their own conversations with Atmel,
relayed back to me.  But I cannot say what All American represented to
Atmel.  That would be outside my view.

Jon

Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 12:38:19 +0100, "Ulf Samuelsson"
> <ulf@a-t-m-e-l.com> wrote:
>
>> I am not aware of any official policy within Atmel that says that
>> samples should be reserved for large customers.
>
> I don't think it was his own motivations operating, Ulf.  He was
> apologetic about having to ask the questions he did.  So I'm pretty
> sure that he was told to ask.

I have also been told to ask, but only for early samples
and not for parts in general sampling.
Early samples are always a special case and should not be confused
with general sampling policy.


> This may be true, for now, Ulf.  But believe me, I had confirmation
> that All American had done their job.
>
> I appreciate your attempts to find an explanation for my experiences.
...
>  You'll lose that last battle, if that is where you are going, unless you
are
> truly willing to do a thorough investigation on the basis of emails I
> have here and provide a convincing and detailed explanation of that
> situation as it played out then.

I think that my humble goal is to find out what went wrong
to be able to suggest the best approach to solve the problem or find a
workaround

In this case, only Atmel can solve the problem, but the workaround
is to order through a distributor and get the order number.
If the part is in general sampling, (and there is stock) then
the parts should arrive soon.
If the samples are ordered over the web, then it may or may not appear


-- 
Best Regards,
Ulf Samuelsson
ulf@a-t-m-e-l.com
This message is intended to be my own personal view and it
may or may not be shared by my employer Atmel Nordic AB

>> If I decided to open up my own shop, I would ask a distributor for
>> samples and request to have the sample order number back as a
>> feedback.
>> This is a guarantee that the sample order has been entered.
>> I believe that if this is done this way, the system should ensure
>> that the samples are delivered quickly.
>
> Well I've just put the system to the test and applied online for two
> samples of ATmega2561. I am developing test code for a C compiler and
> need to run the code on an STK500/501 for testing.
>
> Let's hope you are the sales enginer who receives my request.
>
> Thanks in advance.

And if it works then you should get it in February
since that is when the general sampling begins of that part.

-- 
Best Regards,
Ulf Samuelsson
ulf@a-t-m-e-l.com
This message is intended to be my own personal view and it
may or may not be shared by my employer Atmel Nordic AB