On Wednesday, in article
<dvq4g3$3g8$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>
techie_alison@yahoo.co.uk "techie_alison" wrote:
>"Paul Carpenter" <paul$@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:20060321.1948.315810snz@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk...
>
>> From the board file the board is 23 x 33mm, other assumptions correct.
>> However remember because you have surface mount and plate through
>> components
>> you have TWO different solder masks (one for each side). The solder mask
>> is what gives the board the green colour.
>>
>> >What I'm really trying to do is to get as many for as little ?? as possible.
>> >I guess the silkscreen (lettering) could go, not important. We were paying
>> >about ?80 for about 100 of those boards in 2 weeks or so. I've put this
>> >to the 4 companies I've emailed.
>>
>> Well I did a quick check on <http://www.pcbpool.com/> and min order qty
>> with panelling up they would supply 13 boards per panel 1dm2.
>>
>> Ordering as Double sided prototype quantities, with NO solder mask, and
>> just ident and 13 boards to a panel. A quick quote of 8 panels (8 * 13 =
>> 104 boards), and post shipping on EIGHT days turnaround is 69.93 Euros
.........
>> For what your board is I would consider both sides solder mask for assembly
>> process as you have tracks between pins, and top side ident so add 34 Euros
>> to give
>>
>> 103.93 Euros or 71.94 pounds for 104 boards
>>
>> slightly cheaper than what you had before.
>>
>> Give them your VAT number and you then remove the Irish VAT rate of 21%
>> from that and gives a total of
>>
>> 85.89 Euros or 59.46 pounds for 104 boards
>>
>> That is a LOT cheaper than what you had before and straight from an Eagle
>> file you transmit electronically.
>>
>> If you want faster turnaround then you pay more.
.....
>Wow Paul, I think I love you :) Not quite appropriate on here but hey I'm
>happy, these figures are brilliant. Best quote I managed today was ?160 or
>so.
That's the best 'payment' I have had for advice, even in a newsgroup :-^
>Will get back into this over the next few days as in hospital on Thursday
>and planning to nail this on the head while I recover.
>
>Thanks, will read this properly tomorrow, will likely start a new thread on
>it.
"Paul Carpenter" <paul$@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> wrote in message
news:20060321.1948.315810snz@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk...
> From the board file the board is 23 x 33mm, other assumptions correct.
> However remember because you have surface mount and plate through
components
> you have TWO different solder masks (one for each side). The solder mask
is
> what gives the board the green colour.
>
> >What I'm really trying to do is to get as many for as little ?? as
possible.
> >I guess the silkscreen (lettering) could go, not important. We were
paying
> >about ?80 for about 100 of those boards in 2 weeks or so. I've put this
to
> >the 4 companies I've emailed.
>
> Well I did a quick check on <http://www.pcbpool.com/> and min order qty
> with panelling up they would supply 13 boards per panel 1dm2.
>
> Ordering as Double sided prototype quantities, with NO solder mask, and
> just ident and 13 boards to a panel. A quick quote of 8 panels (8 * 13 =
> 104 boards), and post shipping on EIGHT days turnaround is 69.93 Euros
> (or 48.43 pounds)!!! Less than before, but that price can be juggled by
>
> Solder mask both sides (different) Add 34 Euros
>
> Ident removal top Subtract 17 Euros
>
> Basically Ident or solder mask cost 17 Euros per side in tooling.
>
> For what your board is I would consider both sides solder mask for
assembly
> process as you have tracks between pins, and top side ident so add 34
Euros
> to give
>
> 103.93 Euros or 71.94 pounds for 104 boards
>
> slightly cheaper than what you had before.
>
> Give them your VAT number and you then remove the Irish VAT rate of 21%
> from that and gives a total of
>
> 85.89 Euros or 59.46 pounds for 104 boards
>
> That is a LOT cheaper than what you had before and straight from an Eagle
> file you transmit electronically.
>
> If you want faster turnaround then you pay more.
>
> >It'd be great if anyone could tell me what the specs of these boards are.
> >Sorry to be a thick on this, this is a learning curve. :)
>
> Bog standard double sided stock that most people use by the look of it.
>
> As at least one other person has said if the chip was surface mount
variety
> and the pins could be swapped around (different port pins used) this could
> be a single layer PCB. Less copper is less cost.
>
> Personally the board could do with tidying, but is manufacturable.
>
> --
> Paul Carpenter | paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk
> <http://www.pcserviceselectronics.co.uk/> PC Services
> <http://www.gnuh8.org.uk/> GNU H8 & mailing list info
> <http://www.badweb.org.uk/> For those web sites you hate
>
Wow Paul, I think I love you :) Not quite appropriate on here but hey I'm
happy, these figures are brilliant. Best quote I managed today was �160 or
so.
Will get back into this over the next few days as in hospital on Thursday
and planning to nail this on the head while I recover.
Thanks, will read this properly tomorrow, will likely start a new thread on
it.
Aly
Reply by ●March 21, 20062006-03-21
On Tuesday, in article
<dvon85$qlu$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>
retro@dial.pipex.com "techie_alison" wrote:
>"Paul Carpenter" <paul$@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:20060321.0922.315797snz@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk...
>>
>> >> Hopefully someone will direct you to a good company in the UK. Here in
>> >> the US I use PCB Express: http://www.pcbexpress.com/. While you don't
>> ...
>> Considering you have what looks like only 1 capacitor on the bottom of the
>> board I would only bother with doing a
>>
>> 2 sided PCB
>> both sides solder mask
>> (makes soldering the components easier)
>> top side silkscreen ident
>> (mainly so the chip can be orientated correctly)
>>
>> This at places like pcb-pool <http://www.pcbpool.com/> is a fairly
>standard
From the board file the board is 23 x 33mm, other assumptions correct.
However remember because you have surface mount and plate through components
you have TWO different solder masks (one for each side). The solder mask is
what gives the board the green colour.
>What I'm really trying to do is to get as many for as little ?? as possible.
>I guess the silkscreen (lettering) could go, not important. We were paying
>about ?80 for about 100 of those boards in 2 weeks or so. I've put this to
>the 4 companies I've emailed.
Well I did a quick check on <http://www.pcbpool.com/> and min order qty
with panelling up they would supply 13 boards per panel 1dm2.
Ordering as Double sided prototype quantities, with NO solder mask, and
just ident and 13 boards to a panel. A quick quote of 8 panels (8 * 13 =
104 boards), and post shipping on EIGHT days turnaround is 69.93 Euros
(or 48.43 pounds)!!! Less than before, but that price can be juggled by
Solder mask both sides (different) Add 34 Euros
Ident removal top Subtract 17 Euros
Basically Ident or solder mask cost 17 Euros per side in tooling.
For what your board is I would consider both sides solder mask for assembly
process as you have tracks between pins, and top side ident so add 34 Euros
to give
103.93 Euros or 71.94 pounds for 104 boards
slightly cheaper than what you had before.
Give them your VAT number and you then remove the Irish VAT rate of 21%
from that and gives a total of
85.89 Euros or 59.46 pounds for 104 boards
That is a LOT cheaper than what you had before and straight from an Eagle
file you transmit electronically.
If you want faster turnaround then you pay more.
>It'd be great if anyone could tell me what the specs of these boards are.
>Sorry to be a thick on this, this is a learning curve. :)
Bog standard double sided stock that most people use by the look of it.
As at least one other person has said if the chip was surface mount variety
and the pins could be swapped around (different port pins used) this could
be a single layer PCB. Less copper is less cost.
Personally the board could do with tidying, but is manufacturable.
--
Paul Carpenter | paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk
<http://www.pcserviceselectronics.co.uk/> PC Services
<http://www.gnuh8.org.uk/> GNU H8 & mailing list info
<http://www.badweb.org.uk/> For those web sites you hate
Reply by Richard H.●March 21, 20062006-03-21
[Re-trying this post, this time with the content...]
techie_alison wrote:
> What I'm really trying to do is to get as many for as little �� as possible.
> I guess the silkscreen (lettering) could go, not important. We were paying
> about �80 for about 100 of those boards in 2 weeks or so. I've put this to
> the 4 companies I've emailed.
Aly,
A few things stand out here...
* If you were having them made for a good price, is there a reason you
can't go back there? (I'd be interested in knowing where this was...)
* Limiting yourself to shops that only accept Eagle .brd files will
drive your prices up. Learn how to handle Gerber output and anyone can
process your job, which means you can find cheaper options.
* RoHS will drive the prices up now, and it's non-optional for saleable
products. (Have you thought about how you'll solder these now?)
* Switching to a different 9-pin connector with through-hole pins could
let you switch to a single-sided PCB. The connector price will change,
maybe too much; the board would be cheaper as you'd only need copper,
solder mask, and silkscreen on one side.
* A larger project, but... it looks like you're using less than half the
pins on the PIC. A simpler version (or at least the surface-mount
package) would let you shrink your board size a little, reducing that
cost. A surface-mount PIC might be cheaper (and would require only
layout change); likewise for a simpler PIC if it applies, You'll need
to weigh if it makes your assembly costs go up. A different PIC would
require at least a re-build of the code, but likely not a wholesale
re-write.
* Do you like soldering these PCBs individually? Assembly might be
easier if you had them made in panels / arrays that break apart. It's
called v-scoring. Harder to find in proto shops for a low cost, but
there are some.
* Check out http://www.futurlec.com. They're based in Australia and
front a manufacturer in Thailand. They could do your boards with
v-scoring or cut apart for US$0.65 each at that size, plus about $51
setup charge (Setup as low as $15 with no mask or silkscreen). You have
to ask for v-scoring instead of cut-apart, but there's no extra fee. (!)
You'll have to ask if they do RoHS finishes instead of HASL (solder).
I've been very happy with their work down to 10-mil traces, though their
accuracy on v-scoring is moderate, so allow about 60 mils between boards
for the cut (which is less than the typical 100-mil route plus 20-mil
spacing).
Cheers,
Richard
Reply by Frank Bemelman●March 21, 20062006-03-21
"techie_alison" <retro@dial.pipex.com> schreef in bericht
news:dvoqvb$5qn$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>
> "techie_alison" <retro@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
> news:dvon85$qlu$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>
> I've just been quoted �300 for 100 boards, what a bloody rip-off!! We
were
> paying �80 before.
Guessing it is 25x45mm, a hundred double sided board cost
142.21 euro, excl. 21% VAT, incl. shipping to the UK. That
is roughly 100 pounds. Soldermask and one silkscreen included.
This is at www.eurocircuits.com
Check their online price calculator.
Quality is excellent.
--
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'q' and '.invalid' when replying by email)
Reply by Richard H.●March 21, 20062006-03-21
techie_alison wrote:
> "Paul Carpenter" <paul$@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:20060321.0922.315797snz@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk...
>
>>>>Hopefully someone will direct you to a good company in the UK. Here in
>>>>the US I use PCB Express: http://www.pcbexpress.com/. While you don't
>>
>>...
>>Considering you have what looks like only 1 capacitor on the bottom of the
>>board I would only bother with doing a
>>
>> 2 sided PCB
>> both sides solder mask
>> (makes soldering the components easier)
>> top side silkscreen ident
>> (mainly so the chip can be orientated correctly)
>>
>>This at places like pcb-pool <http://www.pcbpool.com/> is a fairly
>
> standard
>
>>and cheap variant and would be pretty good prices for your board size. Not
>>doing the solder masks on both sides does drop the cost further.
>>
>>Quite a few do a faster turnaround than that, however get quotes from
>>each of them (quite a few do it online) for the whole PCB supply including
>>tooling.
>>
>>
>>>The other thing that's crossed my mind is approaching a local educational
>>>college, who often have the required equipment. I'll write over a letter
>
> to
>
>>>see if they'd like to give some students the opportunity to make a few ??
>
> as
>
>>>well as the college.
>>
>>Depends on the college, and they don't work on the same type of deadlines
>>as you do, they are more likely to be interested if they can design the
>>circuit and/or layout as well. I would only approach them if the job was
>>not time critical in any way.
>>
>>--
>>Paul Carpenter | paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk
>><http://www.pcserviceselectronics.co.uk/> PC Services
>><http://www.gnuh8.org.uk/> GNU H8 & mailing list info
>><http://www.badweb.org.uk/> For those web sites you hate
>>
>
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> Thanks for replying. I'm waiting to hear back from 4 companies at the
> moment to see what they come up with. They have the .brd and the images
> below.
>
> To save further debate, here's my original PCBs;
> http://www.retro.dial.pipex.com/pest/pest_top.jpg and
> http://www.retro.dial.pipex.com/pest/pest_bot.jpg . The fresh .brd is now
> here; http://www.retro.dial.pipex.com/pest/pest.brd
>
> Truth is I haven't the faintest idea what the specs are for those boards in
> PCB terms. They're about 25mm x 30mm, and I'm guessing with soldermask, and
> top silkscreen.
>
> What I'm really trying to do is to get as many for as little �� as possible.
> I guess the silkscreen (lettering) could go, not important. We were paying
> about �80 for about 100 of those boards in 2 weeks or so. I've put this to
> the 4 companies I've emailed.
>
> It'd be great if anyone could tell me what the specs of these boards are.
> Sorry to be a thick on this, this is a learning curve. :)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Aly
>
>
Reply by Spehro Pefhany●March 21, 20062006-03-21
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 12:18:51 +0000 (UTC), the renowned "techie_alison"
<retro@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>"techie_alison" <retro@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
>news:dvon85$qlu$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>
>I've just been quoted �300 for 100 boards, what a bloody rip-off!! We were
>paying �80 before.
Your order would be considered down in the nuisance range by many
production board houses, so you just have to find one or two among the
thousands out there that want your kind of business. At this level,
the cost is really dominated by setup costs, not by board area. Some
suppliers are set up to do tiny prototype level orders, others want to
churn out more stuff. Your 100 boards will just about fit in a padded
envelope! No forklift required..
Specs for the board? You have to be a bit careful- if you underspecify
you may get bad results, if you overspecify the price may go up or you
may get no-bids or "go away" quotes. You'll get enough of those
anyway.
Try something like:
FR-4 material, double-sided with plated through holes
Board dimensions (INCLUDING THICKNESS**)
Solder mask both sides
Silk screen one side
<BOARD FINISH>*
NO testing required+
+I don't think it's worth it on such a simple board in such low
quantities... (but it looks like your assembled version almost has a
top-layer short between the microcontroller pin 13 pad and an adjacent
trace). When you get the boards, lay them out on a light table and
100% visually inspect each one before assembly. It will only take a
few minutes and you'll save much potential heartache.
* You might want to request quotes on what the board house suggests
for finish. There are trade-offs between cost, RoHS compliance,
solderability, bare board shelf-life and so on. If the supplier is
local, you can pick up the phone, or just ask for most economical or
something like that.
** Thickness is fairly important in your application as it has to fit
between the pins on the connector. Use digital calipers, or a
micrometer or something accurate like that.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Reply by Steve at fivetrees●March 21, 20062006-03-21
"techie_alison" <retro@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:dvoqvb$5qn$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>
> "techie_alison" <retro@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
> news:dvon85$qlu$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>
> I've just been quoted �300 for 100 boards, what a bloody rip-off!! We
> were
> paying �80 before.
That almost certainly includes non-recurring charges such as photoplots and
tooling. Maybe get a quote for repeat orders? That would give you a better
comparison.
Steve
http://www.fivetrees.com
Reply by techie_alison●March 21, 20062006-03-21
"techie_alison" <retro@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:dvon85$qlu$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
I've just been quoted �300 for 100 boards, what a bloody rip-off!! We were
paying �80 before.
Reply by techie_alison●March 21, 20062006-03-21
"Paul Carpenter" <paul$@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> wrote in message
news:20060321.0922.315797snz@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk...
>
> >> Hopefully someone will direct you to a good company in the UK. Here in
> >> the US I use PCB Express: http://www.pcbexpress.com/. While you don't
> ...
> Considering you have what looks like only 1 capacitor on the bottom of the
> board I would only bother with doing a
>
> 2 sided PCB
> both sides solder mask
> (makes soldering the components easier)
> top side silkscreen ident
> (mainly so the chip can be orientated correctly)
>
> This at places like pcb-pool <http://www.pcbpool.com/> is a fairly
standard
> and cheap variant and would be pretty good prices for your board size. Not
> doing the solder masks on both sides does drop the cost further.
>
> Quite a few do a faster turnaround than that, however get quotes from
> each of them (quite a few do it online) for the whole PCB supply including
> tooling.
>
> >The other thing that's crossed my mind is approaching a local educational
> >college, who often have the required equipment. I'll write over a letter
to
> >see if they'd like to give some students the opportunity to make a few ??
as
> >well as the college.
>
> Depends on the college, and they don't work on the same type of deadlines
> as you do, they are more likely to be interested if they can design the
> circuit and/or layout as well. I would only approach them if the job was
> not time critical in any way.
>
> --
> Paul Carpenter | paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk
> <http://www.pcserviceselectronics.co.uk/> PC Services
> <http://www.gnuh8.org.uk/> GNU H8 & mailing list info
> <http://www.badweb.org.uk/> For those web sites you hate
>
Hi Paul,
Thanks for replying. I'm waiting to hear back from 4 companies at the
moment to see what they come up with. They have the .brd and the images
below.
To save further debate, here's my original PCBs;
http://www.retro.dial.pipex.com/pest/pest_top.jpg and
http://www.retro.dial.pipex.com/pest/pest_bot.jpg . The fresh .brd is now
here; http://www.retro.dial.pipex.com/pest/pest.brd
Truth is I haven't the faintest idea what the specs are for those boards in
PCB terms. They're about 25mm x 30mm, and I'm guessing with soldermask, and
top silkscreen.
What I'm really trying to do is to get as many for as little �� as possible.
I guess the silkscreen (lettering) could go, not important. We were paying
about �80 for about 100 of those boards in 2 weeks or so. I've put this to
the 4 companies I've emailed.
It'd be great if anyone could tell me what the specs of these boards are.
Sorry to be a thick on this, this is a learning curve. :)
Thanks,
Aly