Guess some more homework is needed. If you plan to have a 3D
accelerator, have a look at that power consumption rather than the
main CPU. These things are compact heaters. Simplify you graphics,
have a look at the highend Sharp ARM microcontrollers. So let's assum
your graphics can be done with the embedded controller, the LH7A404,
ARM9 based micro might be your best bet.
Schwob
ghazan.haider@gmail.com (Ghazan Haider) wrote in message news:<1ad1e8b9.0411041702.8373c5f@posting.google.com>...
> > Well, if it doesn't have to be an ARM, why not consider a MIPS RISC
> > device? VR4133 from NEC is quite interesting. It includes an SDRAM
> > interface, Ethernet Macs and PCI. Power consumption at 266 MHz is
> > 200mA (typ.) at 1.5V and 30mA (typ.) at 3.3V. It will be less if you
> > run it a reduced speed. Performance costs power, so the question is
> > basically which kind of performance you have in mind for the 100mW
> > that you want to spend. And also look for on-chip memory or caches.
> > Accesses to external memory are very costly for the power budget.
>
> Now this looks VERY interesting. I'm not too bothered about power,
> something like 100MIPS, or a 133MHz Pentium1 with 32mb ram is good.
> The idea is a simplistic Linux based computer, but with the full array
> of tools like web browser, office tools etc. I understand PCI takes
> both power, and requires 3.3v at least. External ram will also be
> costly, so I'll try to do one chip of 32mb, maybe at reduced clock,
> and the MCU itself at 100MHz or so, possibly running at dynamic speed.
>
> The device will hopefully be able to run with disposable batteries,
> and should run for at least 10 hours straight (full use), unlike
> current laptops. So the higher the power usage gets, the more
> batteries I'll have to add, the less attractive it will seem compared
> to a laptop. It will also kill my remote hope for a solar powered
> 802.11-run laptop.
>
> The PCI is necessary. None of the MCUs have a good video device (3d
> accelerated), none have 802.11a/b/g, few have pcmcia controller etc.
> Best would be to have an x86-based chip, next ARM, next anything else
> since the software support for ARM and x86, at least in Linux, is
> good. This mips devices gives me a good alternative to look at beside
> the x86 and arm, at the cost of wrestling with linux/netbsd to make
> things go.
Reply by Roger Larsson●November 20, 20042004-11-20
Ghazan Haider wrote:
>> Well, if it doesn't have to be an ARM, why not consider a MIPS RISC
>> device? VR4133 from NEC is quite interesting. It includes an SDRAM
>> interface, Ethernet Macs and PCI. Power consumption at 266 MHz is
>> 200mA (typ.) at 1.5V and 30mA (typ.) at 3.3V. It will be less if you
>> run it a reduced speed. Performance costs power, so the question is
>> basically which kind of performance you have in mind for the 100mW
>> that you want to spend. And also look for on-chip memory or caches.
>> Accesses to external memory are very costly for the power budget.
>
> Now this looks VERY interesting. I'm not too bothered about power,
> something like 100MIPS, or a 133MHz Pentium1 with 32mb ram is good.
> The idea is a simplistic Linux based computer, but with the full array
> of tools like web browser, office tools etc. I understand PCI takes
> both power, and requires 3.3v at least. External ram will also be
> costly, so I'll try to do one chip of 32mb, maybe at reduced clock,
> and the MCU itself at 100MHz or so, possibly running at dynamic speed.
>
> The device will hopefully be able to run with disposable batteries,
> and should run for at least 10 hours straight (full use), unlike
> current laptops. So the higher the power usage gets, the more
> batteries I'll have to add, the less attractive it will seem compared
> to a laptop. It will also kill my remote hope for a solar powered
> 802.11-run laptop.
>
> The PCI is necessary. None of the MCUs have a good video device (3d
> accelerated),
This will become a problem for you since MIPS is not x86 compatible
and most 3D video drivers are binary only...
Andmost recent 3D boards have fans to remove heat...
I think you will have some trouble buying a good video board:
* for PCI
* with open source drivers
* low power consumption
* at a reasonable price
But an older ATI Radeon board could fit... (newer ones are not open source)
/RogerL
Reply by Ghazan Haider●November 4, 20042004-11-04
> Well, if it doesn't have to be an ARM, why not consider a MIPS RISC
> device? VR4133 from NEC is quite interesting. It includes an SDRAM
> interface, Ethernet Macs and PCI. Power consumption at 266 MHz is
> 200mA (typ.) at 1.5V and 30mA (typ.) at 3.3V. It will be less if you
> run it a reduced speed. Performance costs power, so the question is
> basically which kind of performance you have in mind for the 100mW
> that you want to spend. And also look for on-chip memory or caches.
> Accesses to external memory are very costly for the power budget.
Now this looks VERY interesting. I'm not too bothered about power,
something like 100MIPS, or a 133MHz Pentium1 with 32mb ram is good.
The idea is a simplistic Linux based computer, but with the full array
of tools like web browser, office tools etc. I understand PCI takes
both power, and requires 3.3v at least. External ram will also be
costly, so I'll try to do one chip of 32mb, maybe at reduced clock,
and the MCU itself at 100MHz or so, possibly running at dynamic speed.
The device will hopefully be able to run with disposable batteries,
and should run for at least 10 hours straight (full use), unlike
current laptops. So the higher the power usage gets, the more
batteries I'll have to add, the less attractive it will seem compared
to a laptop. It will also kill my remote hope for a solar powered
802.11-run laptop.
The PCI is necessary. None of the MCUs have a good video device (3d
accelerated), none have 802.11a/b/g, few have pcmcia controller etc.
Best would be to have an x86-based chip, next ARM, next anything else
since the software support for ARM and x86, at least in Linux, is
good. This mips devices gives me a good alternative to look at beside
the x86 and arm, at the cost of wrestling with linux/netbsd to make
things go.
Reply by Michael Kr?mer●November 4, 20042004-11-04
> What is the least power consuming 32-bit MCU with glueless SDRAM and PCI interfaces?
Well, if it doesn't have to be an ARM, why not consider a MIPS RISC
device? VR4133 from NEC is quite interesting. It includes an SDRAM
interface, Ethernet Macs and PCI. Power consumption at 266 MHz is
200mA (typ.) at 1.5V and 30mA (typ.) at 3.3V. It will be less if you
run it a reduced speed. Performance costs power, so the question is
basically which kind of performance you have in mind for the 100mW
that you want to spend. And also look for on-chip memory or caches.
Accesses to external memory are very costly for the power budget.
Michael
Reply by Lou●November 3, 20042004-11-03
On 31 Oct 2004 20:30:42 -0800, ghazan.haider@gmail.com (Ghazan Haider)
wrote:
>I have seen plenty of ARM MCUs out there with impressive power
>consumption, but a very few offer SDRAM, and only one has PCI
>interface.
>
>The motorola types, Dragonball and coldfire have these features, but
>are an order of magnitude more expensive on power. What is the least
>power consuming 32-bit MCU with glueless SDRAM and PCI interfaces? I'd
>prefer architectures that can use the PalmOS 4.0 or higher (ARM9 or
>68k). I wonder if adding a PCI interface chip or SDRAM interface chip
>to an ARM9 or even an ARM7 will take lower power than all current
>offerings.
Take a look at AMD's 32-bit Alchemy, moree specifically the Au1500
which has a PCI interface.....very low power.
Cheers,
Lou
Reply by Ulf Samuelsson●November 2, 20042004-11-02
"Rene" <spam@see5.ch> skrev i meddelandet
news:4187ffba$0$28026$5402220f@news.sunrise.ch...
> "Ulf Samuelsson" <ulf@atmel.nospam.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:2uqbo3F28fe67U1@uni-berlin.de...
> >
> {parts deleted}
>
> > Maybe you could be interested in the Comet Board developed at the
> > Fachhochschule in Augsburg.
> > It consists of a motherboard with connectors and a daugtherboard with
>
> An the whole stuff will require at least 3..4W, right? I thought the OP
was
> looking
> for something in the 100mW range.
>
I think that the CPU uses about 60 mW (VccCORE) at 180 MHz but you can run
this at a much
lower speed if you want to so, you may be able to run it close to 10 mW.
Alternatively run at high speed, and then stop clock.
The AVR can handle events meanwhile at low power.
The CPU can turn off peripherals selectively, so anything you dont need only
draws leakage...
The SPI dataflash is not on the same bus as the SDRAM, so only the
capacitance of the SDRAM
(and the FPSLIC) is visible to the CPU. Most other CPUs put the Flash on the
same bus
as the SDRAM which increases the capacitance a lot, and thus also the power.
The dataflash can be powered down after U-boot has booted Linux.
If you are really out after low power, you can run the SDRAM at 1.8V while
the
rest of the I/O run at 3.3V. The Bus has its own I/O. The bus runs at 60
Mhz.
The Ethernet is going to be a Power Hog, due to some problem in the
implementation.
IIRC, th Ethernet does not power down unless the 50 MHz clock disappears,
which is doesnt.
I am pretty sure that an External PCI Ethernet is going to use a lot more
anyway.
For really low power it is best not used.
The AVR should use maybe 10 mW at 3.3V if you run it at slow speed.
The CPLD draws 40 mA @ 3V - terrible, but only when the SPI/Dataflash is
used.
If not, it powers down automatically to 5 uA. Next year, bettewr parts
will reduce to < 20 mW. The SPI speed will affect power consutmpion
and if slower troughput is OK, then lower power results.
FPSLIC will use minimum 100 uA leakage, but the power consumption
of this will of course be depending on what is inside the FPGA.
No clue what the RS-232, CAN drivers or so will draw.
As long as you run USB only internally, you do not have to provide 100/500
mA.
Only what the other end needs.
You make your own judgement if this results in 3 Watts or if it is closer to
100 mW
--
Best Regards,
Ulf Samuelsson ulf@a-t-m-e-l.com
This is a personal view which may or may not be
share by my Employer Atmel Nordic AB
Reply by Rene●November 2, 20042004-11-02
"Ghazan Haider" <ghazan.haider@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:1ad1e8b9.0411021040.3b1efcf@posting.google.com...
> "Neil Bradley" <nb_no_spam@synthcom.com> wrote in message
> news:<10objgg3p5h1od7@corp.supernews.com>...
>> "Ghazan Haider" <ghazan.haider@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1ad1e8b9.0410312030.560d94b6@posting.google.com...
>> > The motorola types, Dragonball and coldfire have these features, but
>> > are an order of magnitude more expensive on power. What is the least
>> > power consuming 32-bit MCU with glueless SDRAM and PCI interfaces? I'd
>> > prefer architectures that can use the PalmOS 4.0 or higher (ARM9 or
>> > 68k). I wonder if adding a PCI interface chip or SDRAM interface chip
>> > to an ARM9 or even an ARM7 will take lower power than all current
>> > offerings.
>>
>> Does it have to be ARM? Consider the PowerPC 405 or 440EP/GP series.
>
> Can be anything that runs Linux/NetBSD. Is the PPC lower on power than
> the Dragonball series? I'm aiming for less than 100mW. Possible?
An MPC870 @66MHz with 2 SDRAMs and some peripherals will require
approx. 2..3Watts. This PPC core has no PCI interface.
100mW sounds not possible for what you plan to do. If your application is
idle most of the time (say 99%) you can however look for a CPU with power-
saving sleep modes. This can reduce power over time significantly.
Yours
- Rene
Reply by Rene●November 2, 20042004-11-02
"Ulf Samuelsson" <ulf@atmel.nospam.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:2uqbo3F28fe67U1@uni-berlin.de...
>
{parts deleted}
> Maybe you could be interested in the Comet Board developed at the
> Fachhochschule in Augsburg.
> It consists of a motherboard with connectors and a daugtherboard with CPU
> and memory.
> http://www.fh-augsburg.de/~hhoegl/proj/comet/index.html
>
> The CPU is the AT91RM9200 ARM920T running at approximately 200 MIPS.
> I addition there is an AVR for systems control, I/O expansion and CAN
> connectivity.
> There will be an FPSLIC (AVR + FPGA) connected to a 512 KB fast SRAM, and
> it
> should
> be possible to do a simple VGA style controller here.Another option is a
> video framegrabber.
>
> The memory will be 2 x dataflashes for a total of 16 MB flash. 32 or 64 MB
> SDRAM.
> In addition, there is an MMC/SD/Dataflashcard connector allowing you to
> boot
> from an external DFC.
> Prog Hoegl plans to run things like eCos and Linux 2.6 on the board.
>
> The AT91RM9200 has a vast number of I/Os.
> * 10/100 Mbit Ethernet.
> * USB Host + Client controller.
> Host controller can interfqace to things like USB Keyboard, mouse, USB
> memory under Linux
> * 5 x UART
> * 3 * Sync serial for I2S codecs
> * TWI for I2C connectivity
> * SPI
> * Flash Card interfaces (MMC/SD/Compactflash/Smartmedia)
>
> Don't think you need PCI ;-)
>
> ============
> The daughter board will have Compactflash interface
> USB hub (additional 4-8 ports) and maybe I2S codec.
>
> This board will be open source, so anyone can use it. It is not ready yet,
> and a new revision of the
> schematics will be there soon. The SRAM will move from the CPU bus to the
> FPSLIC
> allowing a lot of nice functions to be implemented.
An the whole stuff will require at least 3..4W, right? I thought the OP was
looking
for something in the 100mW range.
- Rene
Reply by Ulf Samuelsson●November 2, 20042004-11-02
"Ghazan Haider" <ghazan.haider@gmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:1ad1e8b9.0411021039.2f6002e0@posting.google.com...
> > Question is why you need PCI? PCI uses 50-60 pins
> > and toggles most of those pins at 33-66 MHz.
> > Does not sound like low power to me...
>
> low-cost computer. I'd be adding modules on it, like a soundcard,
> various nics, and pcmcia options. High on the list is an embedded
> graphics chip. I'm not sure if I can interconnect all these through
> other busses, or afford their cores for FPGAs.
>
> > Most people building ARM will build a chip which contains
> > the things you normally put on PCI, and that will draw lower power.
>
> I know PCI gets power hungry, but using a complete x86 system like the
> STPC, Geode is more power demanding, and for reasons stated above, PCI
> is necessary. So the aim is any good MCU with low power ratings
> (nonx86), and PCI and SDRAM.
Maybe you could be interested in the Comet Board developed at the
Fachhochschule in Augsburg.
It consists of a motherboard with connectors and a daugtherboard with CPU
and memory.
http://www.fh-augsburg.de/~hhoegl/proj/comet/index.html
The CPU is the AT91RM9200 ARM920T running at approximately 200 MIPS.
I addition there is an AVR for systems control, I/O expansion and CAN
connectivity.
There will be an FPSLIC (AVR + FPGA) connected to a 512 KB fast SRAM, and it
should
be possible to do a simple VGA style controller here.Another option is a
video framegrabber.
The memory will be 2 x dataflashes for a total of 16 MB flash. 32 or 64 MB
SDRAM.
In addition, there is an MMC/SD/Dataflashcard connector allowing you to boot
from an external DFC.
Prog Hoegl plans to run things like eCos and Linux 2.6 on the board.
The AT91RM9200 has a vast number of I/Os.
* 10/100 Mbit Ethernet.
* USB Host + Client controller.
Host controller can interfqace to things like USB Keyboard, mouse, USB
memory under Linux
* 5 x UART
* 3 * Sync serial for I2S codecs
* TWI for I2C connectivity
* SPI
* Flash Card interfaces (MMC/SD/Compactflash/Smartmedia)
Don't think you need PCI ;-)
============
The daughter board will have Compactflash interface
USB hub (additional 4-8 ports) and maybe I2S codec.
This board will be open source, so anyone can use it. It is not ready yet,
and a new revision of the
schematics will be there soon. The SRAM will move from the CPU bus to the
FPSLIC
allowing a lot of nice functions to be implemented.
--
Best Regards,
Ulf Samuelsson ulf@a-t-m-e-l.com
This is a personal view which may or may not be
share by my Employer Atmel Nordic AB