Reply by Chris Hills September 27, 20062006-09-27
In article <1159275803.795793.127410@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, 
"mcu.programmer@gmail.com" <mcu.programmer@gmail.com> writes
>I think the combination of SDCC and FreeRTOS is not a bad choise see: > >http://sdcc.sourceforge.net/
Not for anything remotely serious though. You are FAR better off with an eval of a commercial system.
>Using Free an OpenSource will reduce the cost of your budget.
Really? However if you are in a commercial environment don't forget some decent insurance...... -- \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ /\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Reply by mcu....@gmail.com September 26, 20062006-09-26
I think the combination of SDCC and FreeRTOS is not a bad choise see:

http://sdcc.sourceforge.net/

http://www.freertos.org

SDCC also has an IDE support it called

MIDE-51: http://www.opcube.com/home.html

and free Simulators such as:

Jsim51: http://home.arcor.de/jensaltmann/jsim-e.htm
edSim51: http://www.edsim51.com/

Using Free an OpenSource will reduce the cost of your budget.


------------------------------------------
Wira Kasem
http://mcu-programming.blogspot.com

Reply by Ian Bell August 31, 20062006-08-31
Kevin D. Quitt wrote:

> On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 08:58:30 +0100, Ian Bell <ruffrecords@yahoo.co.uk> > wrote: >>The choice of RTOS is immaterial. People seriously underestimate the the >>shift in mind set needed to move from non RTOS development to RTOS >>development. > > I call it micro-computer brain damage. >
Nice one. Ian
Reply by Robert Adsett August 31, 20062006-08-31
Chris Hills wrote:
> In article <1156862296.343751.320620@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>, > Robert Adsett <sub2@aeolusdevelopment.com> writes > > > >cbarn24050@aol.com wrote: > >> Chris Hills wrote: > >> > Only need one copy with several engineers developing Sw concurrently? > >> > >> I guess it does depend on just how big the team is but you dont develop > >> software on a compiler, you compile what you have written. > > > >Here we see another aspect of the problem. > > > >Some see software like a compiler as analogous to a tool like a > >screwdriver. If one person isn't using it another can and perhaps at a > >different location. It's not particularly tied to a person or a > >location. Even with expensive tools like high speed oscilloscopes this > >follows, it's laughable to think you would require permission from the > >manufacturer for a second person to use the tool at another location. > > Not a problem.... but what happens when you want to use 3 screw drivers > at once?
That depends, if one person needs multiple screwdirvers at once then you need more than one. If it's more than one person other possibilities open up. For a screwdriver that's only a few dollars it makes sense to have multiples around, for a multi-million dollar instrument it makes sense to have people share. A lot of tools lie somewhere in between obviously. Also the border between sharing a single tool and having individual tools varies tremendously from place to place and depends on factors other than economics (even if they shouldn't play a large role). Robert
Reply by David Brown August 31, 20062006-08-31
Andy Peters wrote:
> David Brown wrote: > >> Again, the relevant number is not the number of people using illegal >> copies (I wish we'd drop the silly and inappropriate term "software >> piracy"), but the number who would otherwise have bought a license. If >> a thousand companies use illegal copies, but only one could have >> afforded the full price, then your loses are one sale, not a thousand. >> Those other 999 can be considered advertising - if one of them gets rich >> and decides to play honestly, it will probably choose your product as >> the one it is familiar with. > > I've heard the "when I get rich I'll buy the product" argument before > and I don't believe it for a second. What's the incentive, other than > perhaps the threat of a lawsuit? >
There always has to be an incentive - it's not going to happen by itself. But it's easy enough to think when changes of philosophy might happen, such as during expansion, or when buying up another company or being bought out, or when working with more fussy clients. I agree it is not going to happen on its own.
> Here's an example from a different market: a friend used to write > plug-ins for DigiDesign's ProTools (the Microsoft Windows of the > digital audio workstation market). He knew for a fact that producers > were using pirated copies of his $250 products on songs that sold > millions of copies. And it's not like those producers were writing big > checks to my friend's company as a way of saying, "thanks." > > It got to the point where he estimated that for every legal customer > there were easily a hundred cracked copies in use. Where's the > incentive to make the next product? >
Some of these copies should certainly have been sales, and are therefore money lost to illegal copying. But a lot of those hundred copies, frustrating and demoralising though they are, would never have been sales. All I want to here is point out there are differences, and when looking at lost sales due to illegal copying it is important to understand those differences. I have even less idea where the balances lie in your friend's market - that's up to him to find out. But ultimately, the incentive boils down to whether he gets in enough money from sales to cover the costs and make a profit - remember, a sale lost to illegal copying is not money lost, it is money not earned.
> (Coda: DigiDesign ultimately "made 'em an offer they couldn't refuse," > no horse-head in the bed needed, and bought out my friend and his > partner. I guess that's one way of making money in that business. > Probably the only way.) >
It certainly is one way to make money, and a path taken by many developers. Each case is different, each developer is different - some want control of everything, others are happy to stick to the development and let someone else handle the business side.
> -a >
Reply by Kevin D. Quitt August 30, 20062006-08-30
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 08:58:30 +0100, Ian Bell <ruffrecords@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>The choice of RTOS is immaterial. People seriously underestimate the the >shift in mind set needed to move from non RTOS development to RTOS >development.
I call it micro-computer brain damage. -- _ Kevin "What do you mean I can't write on the disk registers?" Quitt 96.37% of all Statistics are Made Up.
Reply by Andy Peters August 30, 20062006-08-30
David Brown wrote:

> Again, the relevant number is not the number of people using illegal > copies (I wish we'd drop the silly and inappropriate term "software > piracy"), but the number who would otherwise have bought a license. If > a thousand companies use illegal copies, but only one could have > afforded the full price, then your loses are one sale, not a thousand. > Those other 999 can be considered advertising - if one of them gets rich > and decides to play honestly, it will probably choose your product as > the one it is familiar with.
I've heard the "when I get rich I'll buy the product" argument before and I don't believe it for a second. What's the incentive, other than perhaps the threat of a lawsuit? Here's an example from a different market: a friend used to write plug-ins for DigiDesign's ProTools (the Microsoft Windows of the digital audio workstation market). He knew for a fact that producers were using pirated copies of his $250 products on songs that sold millions of copies. And it's not like those producers were writing big checks to my friend's company as a way of saying, "thanks." It got to the point where he estimated that for every legal customer there were easily a hundred cracked copies in use. Where's the incentive to make the next product? (Coda: DigiDesign ultimately "made 'em an offer they couldn't refuse," no horse-head in the bed needed, and bought out my friend and his partner. I guess that's one way of making money in that business. Probably the only way.) -a
Reply by Ian Bell August 30, 20062006-08-30
Boudewijn Dijkstra wrote:

> Op Tue, 29 Aug 2006 22:26:31 +0200 schreef Ian Bell > <ruffrecords@yahoo.co.uk>: >> Boudewijn Dijkstra wrote: >>> From the point of view of simple economics it is often worth it to save >>> the extra component and introduce an RTOS and a good debugger in such a >>> design. >> >> This is seriously wrong especially where no RTOS was in use before - it >> is just asking for a whole bunch of quite unnecessary headaches, >> heartaches, >> late nights and seriously dodgy products. > > Assuming you speak from first-hand experience, I guess you must have > encountered the bad RTOSes only. > >
The choice of RTOS is immaterial. People seriously underestimate the the shift in mind set needed to move from non RTOS development to RTOS development. Ian
Reply by Boudewijn Dijkstra August 30, 20062006-08-30
Op Tue, 29 Aug 2006 22:26:31 +0200 schreef Ian Bell  
<ruffrecords@yahoo.co.uk>:
> Boudewijn Dijkstra wrote: >> From the point of view of simple economics it is often worth it to save >> the extra component and introduce an RTOS and a good debugger in such a >> design. > > This is seriously wrong especially where no RTOS was in use before - it > is just asking for a whole bunch of quite unnecessary headaches, > heartaches, > late nights and seriously dodgy products.
Assuming you speak from first-hand experience, I guess you must have encountered the bad RTOSes only. -- Gemaakt met Opera's revolutionaire e-mailprogramma: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Reply by Chris Hills August 29, 20062006-08-29
In article <1156862296.343751.320620@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>, 
Robert Adsett <sub2@aeolusdevelopment.com> writes
> >cbarn24050@aol.com wrote: >> Chris Hills wrote: >> > >> No so. In some markets piracy is 90% of the market. There are some areas >> > >> where if there are several SW engineers on a team you only get to sell >> > >> one compiler for any given target.... >> > >> >> > > >> > >It's very probable that they only need 1 compiler >> > >> > Only need one copy with several engineers developing Sw concurrently? >> >> I guess it does depend on just how big the team is but you dont develop >> software on a compiler, you compile what you have written. > >Here we see another aspect of the problem. > >Some see software like a compiler as analogous to a tool like a >screwdriver. If one person isn't using it another can and perhaps at a >different location. It's not particularly tied to a person or a >location. Even with expensive tools like high speed oscilloscopes this >follows, it's laughable to think you would require permission from the >manufacturer for a second person to use the tool at another location.
Not a problem.... but what happens when you want to use 3 screw drivers at once? -- \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ /\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/