>> Hospitals, residential care facilities, etc. (the examples I
>> cited) have staff on hand for these things. I.e. *they*
>> repair the faulty heating/cooling unit themselves. Or, pull
>> it for complete overhaul, etc. Note that hospitals have
>> carpenters, plumbers, hazardous waste experts, electricians,
>> etc. all "on staff".
>
> Some smaller ones contract that stuff out. Meaning they'll be billed for
> every truck roll unless they have a flat fee agreement. I have even
> encountered large ones with outsourced maintenance, probably to avoid
> too much unionization.
I suspect that is largely dependant on *where* the facilty
is located. E.g., here in southwestern USA, most hospitals
of *any* size have full-service staffs. Including on-staff
repair of many hitech instruments (MRI's, etc.).
Some new construction is farmed out but most remodeling
and maintenance is done in-house.
>>> Additionally, there are regulatory requirements on how power gets wired
>>> to alarm hardware, which essentially leave you three choices for your
>>> AC-powered alternative:
>>
>> Heating/cooling units are not "alarms" :> Adding a radio to
>> such a unit -- especially when there are undoubtedly hundreds
>> (if not more!) of identical units in the facility -- can be
>> a 30 minute install "kitted" for that particular unit.
>>
>> Hospitals, in particular, have all sorts of unusual infrastructure
>> that can be leveraged to make this "non-wired" deployment very
>> attractive (e.g., "universal antennae", repeaters, etc.). It's
>> the (equivalent of the) "last mile" (feet?) where much of the
>> cost comes into play.
>
> Hospitals have very strict rules for RF emitting devices. IOW, it may
> not be permitted to install them. Also, a lot of hospital gear needs to
Yes, but this also depends on the design of the hospital.
I.e. many here are single story edifices spread out over
*large* plots of land. This means patient care can often
be located far from administrative and maintenance facilities,
etc.
> go through extra regulatory approvals. Such as IEC601-1 to name one of
Sure! The same is true of medical instruments, etc. (one area
that I've worked in).
> them. I've worked in medical electronics for 20 years now and the
> regulatroy part is rather time consuming. But has to be done, and for
> good reasons.
Note that none of these arguments apply to hotels, schools,
dormitories, etc.
Reply by Joerg●October 13, 20062006-10-13
Hello Don,
>>> Note that in these settings, "staff" are *frequently* present
>>> in the room with the device. And, since (these types of) batteries
>>> are low voltage, "well understood" devices that "common folk"
>>> can readily deal with, it is not unusual to expect a maintenance
>>> person to replace a battery if needed -- without requiring a
>>> licensed electrician to do so!
>>
>> In installs of this type, batteries are generally considered a dealer
>> serviced item. I.e. it is a truck roll whether you need a $500 alarm
>> panel replaced, or a $0.79 AA cell. Battery life is a VERY serious
>> design consideration for these appliances.
>
> Hospitals, residential care facilities, etc. (the examples I
> cited) have staff on hand for these things. I.e. *they*
> repair the faulty heating/cooling unit themselves. Or, pull
> it for complete overhaul, etc. Note that hospitals have
> carpenters, plumbers, hazardous waste experts, electricians,
> etc. all "on staff".
>
Some smaller ones contract that stuff out. Meaning they'll be billed for
every truck roll unless they have a flat fee agreement. I have even
encountered large ones with outsourced maintenance, probably to avoid
too much unionization.
>> Additionally, there are regulatory requirements on how power gets wired
>> to alarm hardware, which essentially leave you three choices for your
>> AC-powered alternative:
>
>
> Heating/cooling units are not "alarms" :> Adding a radio to
> such a unit -- especially when there are undoubtedly hundreds
> (if not more!) of identical units in the facility -- can be
> a 30 minute install "kitted" for that particular unit.
>
> Hospitals, in particular, have all sorts of unusual infrastructure
> that can be leveraged to make this "non-wired" deployment very
> attractive (e.g., "universal antennae", repeaters, etc.). It's
> the (equivalent of the) "last mile" (feet?) where much of the
> cost comes into play.
>
Hospitals have very strict rules for RF emitting devices. IOW, it may
not be permitted to install them. Also, a lot of hospital gear needs to
go through extra regulatory approvals. Such as IEC601-1 to name one of
them. I've worked in medical electronics for 20 years now and the
regulatroy part is rather time consuming. But has to be done, and for
good reasons.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com
Reply by Joerg●October 12, 20062006-10-12
Hello Jason,
>>
>>>>I have yet to see structured (home run) wiring in a regular new home.
>>>
>>>I close on a new home in the St Louis area next week, it came with
>>>structured ethernet in every room for the phone, and yes, data. No
>>>additional charge, standard feature on a new spec home in town with a
>>>population of less then 60,000.
>>>
>>
>>Wow. It certainly is the way to go, especially when considering that a
>>1000ft spool of good CAT5 is well under $100.
>>
>>Did they also do a home-run wiring for TV? What I did in our house was
>>run four cables to every location: CAT5 for phone, CAT5 for LAN, 1st
>>quad-shield for TV, 2nd quad shield for feeding TV content back into the
>> distribution head. Now we have our own in-house channel on UHF :-)
>>
> They actually did two cable home runs for the TV in the living room and
> then runs to a splitter in the basement for every other room. ...
That's not a good method IMHO. Unless every port is terminated with
75ohms you'll get more or less ghosting. Even if more TVs are connected
to the other ports it is surprising how much they deviate from 75ohms
across the range of 40-850MHz. This is why I chose a home run for every
location, driven from a clean 75ohm source.
> ... Each room
> also has a cat5 4 pair run for phone and one for data. This is
> actually my second house, the first one I went into one night and ran 44
> ethernet ports (WAY overkill) and was about to do the same with this
> house, but I was pleasantly surprised to find it already done!
> I run a fairly large MythTV install at the house (4 SD tuners, 1 HD and
> 759 gig of ripped DVDs, all legal) so the cable wasn't as large a deal
> for me as the ethernet, but it's definitely nice knowing that I have
> homeruns in the important spots. They also did one additional homerun
> into the loft which has allowed me to signup for a 10mb down 1.5mb up
> cable modem. Boy I can't wait to get my hands on that critter! I've even
> got an entire 66 block to tap into for my Asterisk install. We've been
> scraping by in apartments, saving up as much as we can and now it's
> about to pay off. I'm getting my lab, wood shop, all my computer gear
> and gym all at the same time. It's like Christmas!
>
Alright! Having your own lab and shop is wonderful.
> Hello Jason,
>
>>>
>>> I have yet to see structured (home run) wiring in a regular new home.
>>
>> I close on a new home in the St Louis area next week, it came with
>> structured ethernet in every room for the phone, and yes, data. No
>> additional charge, standard feature on a new spec home in town with a
>> population of less then 60,000.
>>
>
> Wow. It certainly is the way to go, especially when considering that a
> 1000ft spool of good CAT5 is well under $100.
>
> Did they also do a home-run wiring for TV? What I did in our house was
> run four cables to every location: CAT5 for phone, CAT5 for LAN, 1st
> quad-shield for TV, 2nd quad shield for feeding TV content back into the
> distribution head. Now we have our own in-house channel on UHF :-)
>
They actually did two cable home runs for the TV in the living room and
then runs to a splitter in the basement for every other room. Each room
also has a cat5 4 pair run for phone and one for data. This is
actually my second house, the first one I went into one night and ran 44
ethernet ports (WAY overkill) and was about to do the same with this
house, but I was pleasantly surprised to find it already done!
I run a fairly large MythTV install at the house (4 SD tuners, 1 HD and
759 gig of ripped DVDs, all legal) so the cable wasn't as large a deal
for me as the ethernet, but it's definitely nice knowing that I have
homeruns in the important spots. They also did one additional homerun
into the loft which has allowed me to signup for a 10mb down 1.5mb up
cable modem. Boy I can't wait to get my hands on that critter! I've even
got an entire 66 block to tap into for my Asterisk install. We've been
scraping by in apartments, saving up as much as we can and now it's
about to pay off. I'm getting my lab, wood shop, all my computer gear
and gym all at the same time. It's like Christmas!
Sorry to go off topic, just a bit excited!
--
Jason
The place where you made your stand never mattered,
only that you were there... and still on your feet
Reply by Joerg●October 12, 20062006-10-12
Hello Jason,
>>
>>I have yet to see structured (home run) wiring in a regular new home.
>
> I close on a new home in the St Louis area next week, it came with
> structured ethernet in every room for the phone, and yes, data. No
> additional charge, standard feature on a new spec home in town with a
> population of less then 60,000.
>
Wow. It certainly is the way to go, especially when considering that a
1000ft spool of good CAT5 is well under $100.
Did they also do a home-run wiring for TV? What I did in our house was
run four cables to every location: CAT5 for phone, CAT5 for LAN, 1st
quad-shield for TV, 2nd quad shield for feeding TV content back into the
distribution head. Now we have our own in-house channel on UHF :-)
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com
Reply by Don●October 12, 20062006-10-12
larwe wrote:
> Don wrote:
>
>> Note that in these settings, "staff" are *frequently* present
>> in the room with the device. And, since (these types of) batteries
>> are low voltage, "well understood" devices that "common folk"
>> can readily deal with, it is not unusual to expect a maintenance
>> person to replace a battery if needed -- without requiring a
>> licensed electrician to do so!
>
> In installs of this type, batteries are generally considered a dealer
> serviced item. I.e. it is a truck roll whether you need a $500 alarm
> panel replaced, or a $0.79 AA cell. Battery life is a VERY serious
> design consideration for these appliances.
Hospitals, residential care facilities, etc. (the examples I
cited) have staff on hand for these things. I.e. *they*
repair the faulty heating/cooling unit themselves. Or, pull
it for complete overhaul, etc. Note that hospitals have
carpenters, plumbers, hazardous waste experts, electricians,
etc. all "on staff".
> Additionally, there are regulatory requirements on how power gets wired
> to alarm hardware, which essentially leave you three choices for your
> AC-powered alternative:
Heating/cooling units are not "alarms" :> Adding a radio to
such a unit -- especially when there are undoubtedly hundreds
(if not more!) of identical units in the facility -- can be
a 30 minute install "kitted" for that particular unit.
Hospitals, in particular, have all sorts of unusual infrastructure
that can be leveraged to make this "non-wired" deployment very
attractive (e.g., "universal antennae", repeaters, etc.). It's
the (equivalent of the) "last mile" (feet?) where much of the
cost comes into play.
I worked on an access control system (i.e. door locks) with
similar cost prohibitions (convincing a hotel to replace ALL
of their locks is a tough sell... but, even more of a battle
if you tell them they have to rewire their facility in addition)
> 1. Install special boxes and conduits and have pipes running up the
> walls,
>
> 2. Mount the radio device down where the outlets are, and where the
> radio won't work well, or
>
> 3. Hire a licensed electrician [most installers are NOT licensed
> electricians] to put an outlet at the appropriate height on the wall.
> Which might not even be possible in certain structures.
>
> This is the kind of thing I meant when I said there are special needs
> and ZigBee doesn't meet them.
Reply by Jason●October 11, 20062006-10-11
Joerg wrote:
> Hello Lewin,
>
>>
>>>>> IMHO X10 failed to penetrate because it is not reliable. We have
>>>>> X10 and
>>>>
>>>> More than that: the functionality it provides simply not useful to most
>>>> people. The demand for remote-controlled power outlets is simply not
>>>
>>> Have to disagree here. To us as a rather typical household it has proven
>>> to be very useful. A few examples:
>>
>> Oh, no, no, Joerg - you are /not/ a typical household. Yes, those
>> particular things might be desirable (in an abstract sense) to the
>> average Joe Couch Potato, but the cost has to be zero and the
>> difficulty of installation has to be zero and the complexity of
>> troubleshooting has to be zero as well, otherwise it's not worth it.
>>
>> It's just like having an Internet-connected touch-screen on the
>> refrigerator door. OK, fine, it looks cool. But it is not a feature for
>> which most people are willing to pay.
>>
>
> X10 is a bit different. Even when I told visitors that this or that
> feature would probably cost a few hundred if an electrician were to
> install it they did not flinch. They really wanted to have it.
>
>
>> The marketplace simply does not care about home automation. It has been
>> viable for at least 20 years, probably more (especially if you count
>> pneumatic solutions). The uptake has never been big.
>>
>
> The marketplace hasn't been created. That's the problem. Now discount
> any engineering media you follow and just look at the media John and
> Jane Doe are exposed to: When is the last time you read, heard or saw HA
> in these? Ads, articles, blurbs, anything.
>
>
>> Even I would not buy such equipment - and I can understand how to
>> install and debug it. It would add no utility to my life, since the
>> time I spend at home is almost entirely spent in my lab or outside
>> working on my cars.
>>
>
> My wife instantly love it. If I weren't married I'd probably not have
> X10 either.
>
> BTW, a friend showed us his latest car treasure yesterday: A Cobra body,
> made in Poland from aluminum at a former aircraft factory, plus all the
> parts to build it. Blew me away.
>
>>
>>>> ZigBee is a more elegantly crafted answer, also looking for a question.
>>>
>>> Elegant, yes. But will it work in a house? Did the standards guys think
>>> about the fact that some of the insulating wool in walls and ceilings is
>>> aluminum backed?
>>
>> Yes, is the only answer I can give to that without getting into
>> employer-specific stuff :)
>>
>
> Let's hope they thought about it hard enough then...
>
>>
>>> For home automation in retrofit (and it's nearly always going to be a
>>> retrofit situation) I believe comms need to run two-pronged. Powerline
>>
>> Google for "structured wiring" and you will see that there is
>> considerable market for this sort of thing in new home construction,
>> and comparatively little as retrofit to existing structures.
>>
>
> I have yet to see structured (home run) wiring in a regular new home.
I close on a new home in the St Louis area next week, it came with
structured ethernet in every room for the phone, and yes, data. No
additional charge, standard feature on a new spec home in town with a
population of less then 60,000.
>
>
>> I remember very well in the UPnP discussions (back in the age before it
>> was proven to be worthless), the MS guys were really surprised when I
>> talked about retrofitting Ethernet to a home; they assumed that UPnP
>> products would be going mainly into new homes that had wired Ethernet
>> to every room built right into the original architectural design.
>>
>
> I did retrofit Ethernet throughout this house. Got the scars to prove it
> from all those times I scraped a nail while crawling. No fun.
>
--
Jason
The place where you made your stand never mattered,
only that you were there... and still on your feet
Reply by larwe●October 11, 20062006-10-11
Don wrote:
> Note that in these settings, "staff" are *frequently* present
> in the room with the device. And, since (these types of) batteries
> are low voltage, "well understood" devices that "common folk"
> can readily deal with, it is not unusual to expect a maintenance
> person to replace a battery if needed -- without requiring a
> licensed electrician to do so!
In installs of this type, batteries are generally considered a dealer
serviced item. I.e. it is a truck roll whether you need a $500 alarm
panel replaced, or a $0.79 AA cell. Battery life is a VERY serious
design consideration for these appliances.
Additionally, there are regulatory requirements on how power gets wired
to alarm hardware, which essentially leave you three choices for your
AC-powered alternative:
1. Install special boxes and conduits and have pipes running up the
walls,
2. Mount the radio device down where the outlets are, and where the
radio won't work well, or
3. Hire a licensed electrician [most installers are NOT licensed
electricians] to put an outlet at the appropriate height on the wall.
Which might not even be possible in certain structures.
This is the kind of thing I meant when I said there are special needs
and ZigBee doesn't meet them.
Reply by Don●October 11, 20062006-10-11
Andy Peters wrote:
> Don wrote:
>> steve wrote:
>>>> Bingo! The importance of ZigBee is also that it is not only (usually) inexpensive, but
>>>> most importantly it is very low power.
>>> Well, it's only low power when it's in beacon mode, it takes 20-40 mA
>>> to transmit/receive, and looking at the datarates it's not any better
>>> (mA/datarate) then bluetooth.
>> Exactly. Zigbee addresses the very low data rate market.
>> Ideal (?) for something like HvAC control in a large facility.
>> Or, energy management. Where the cost of *wiring* far exceeds
>> the cost of the device (assuming you can't come up with
>> other clever solutions to eliminate that wiring) -- yet the
>> device's communicaions requirements are essentally miniscule..
>
> What about the cost of replacing a dead battery?
Zigbee doesn't *require* the use of battery power :> I.e.
if you have a device with a ready source of AC mains power,
it is acceptable (desirable?) to use that.
Note that in these settings, "staff" are *frequently* present
in the room with the device. And, since (these types of) batteries
are low voltage, "well understood" devices that "common folk"
can readily deal with, it is not unusual to expect a maintenance
person to replace a battery if needed -- without requiring a
licensed electrician to do so!
OTOH, running wires in these sorts of facilities (even low
voltage wire -- especially if it has to interface to a mains
voltage device) almost always involves "skilled/licensed labor".
You may have noticed that most electronic devices are not
repaired anymore -- simply replaced. This is NOT because
the cost of the PARTS is prohibitive :>
Reply by Andy Peters●October 11, 20062006-10-11
Don wrote:
> steve wrote:
> >> Bingo! The importance of ZigBee is also that it is not only (usually) inexpensive, but
> >> most importantly it is very low power.
> >
> > Well, it's only low power when it's in beacon mode, it takes 20-40 mA
> > to transmit/receive, and looking at the datarates it's not any better
> > (mA/datarate) then bluetooth.
>
> Exactly. Zigbee addresses the very low data rate market.
> Ideal (?) for something like HvAC control in a large facility.
> Or, energy management. Where the cost of *wiring* far exceeds
> the cost of the device (assuming you can't come up with
> other clever solutions to eliminate that wiring) -- yet the
> device's communicaions requirements are essentally miniscule..
What about the cost of replacing a dead battery?
-a