On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 01:23:27 +0000, Rich Grise wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:03:14 +0000, Michael wrote:
>> Tim Shoppa wrote:
>> (snip)
>>> wowee-kablamoo, 6 inches of solder turned into a bright blue spark ...
>> (snip)
>> 
>> ROTFLMAO!  You reminded me of the surprise that was sprung on me when I brushed
>> the HV inside an oscilloscope.  That was in 1969.  To this very day I plant my
>> free hand in a pocket ... or, if I'm really-really intimidated, in the back
>> waistband of my trousers.
>> 
>> "wowee-kablamoo"   Gotta remember that.  <G>
> 
> When I was in 12th grade Physics class, there was a back room, with all
> kinds of neat stuff, including a 545-type scope, and an old, but
> operational, TV set, without the case.
> 
> So, I thought I'd look at the waveform at the plate cap of the Horizontal
> Output tube, and drew an arc to the scope probe about 1-1/2" long.
> 
> Of course, being toob-type, all of the equipment survived. :-)

All together now:
And, of course, being boob-type, Rich survived. ;-D

Cheers!
Rich

On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:03:14 +0000, Michael wrote:
> Tim Shoppa wrote:
> (snip)
>> wowee-kablamoo, 6 inches of solder turned into a bright blue spark ...
> (snip)
> 
> ROTFLMAO!  You reminded me of the surprise that was sprung on me when I brushed
> the HV inside an oscilloscope.  That was in 1969.  To this very day I plant my
> free hand in a pocket ... or, if I'm really-really intimidated, in the back
> waistband of my trousers.
> 
> "wowee-kablamoo"   Gotta remember that.  <G>

When I was in 12th grade Physics class, there was a back room, with all
kinds of neat stuff, including a 545-type scope, and an old, but
operational, TV set, without the case.

So, I thought I'd look at the waveform at the plate cap of the Horizontal
Output tube, and drew an arc to the scope probe about 1-1/2" long.

Of course, being toob-type, all of the equipment survived. :-)

Cheers!
Rich

Michael wrote:
> Tim Shoppa wrote:
> (snip)
>> wowee-kablamoo, 6 inches of solder turned into a bright blue spark ...
>> (snip) Tim.
> 
> 
> ROTFLMAO!  You reminded me of the surprise that was sprung on me when I
> brushed the HV inside an oscilloscope.  That was in 1969.  To this very
> day I plant my free hand in a pocket ... or, if I'm really-really
> intimidated, in the back waistband of my trousers.
> 
> "wowee-kablamoo"   Gotta remember that.  <G>

I was leaning over the front of a 14" monitor to reach the mains 
socket on the lower back panel. When I plugged in the mains,
a spark from the front of the screen shot out hit me in the gonads!

When the owner came to pick up his machinery after an upgrade,
I complained to him that he should have switched off before
bringing it over whereupon he commented that my efforts were
rewarded by a curious checksum fault that had magically got fixed.

He would normally leave all the kit switched on and kill the mains
to his workstation by flicking a master switch. Flicking this on
next time with all kit taking a power surge, the computer threw a
fault during the POST showing there was a checksum error !

Without the monitor taking start-up power at the same instant,
the computer was able to complete its POST without error.


-- 
Graham W   http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial
WIMBORNE   http://www.wessex-astro.org.uk/ Wessex Astro Society's Website
Dorset UK  Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps
Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter.

Tim Shoppa wrote:
(snip)
> wowee-kablamoo, 6 inches of solder turned into a bright blue spark ...
(snip)
> Tim.


ROTFLMAO!  You reminded me of the surprise that was sprung on me when I brushed
the HV inside an oscilloscope.  That was in 1969.  To this very day I plant my
free hand in a pocket ... or, if I'm really-really intimidated, in the back
waistband of my trousers.

"wowee-kablamoo"   Gotta remember that.  <G>

Joerg wrote:

> I wonder if Europe still has those 4.5V batteries. Back in them good old 
> days they were the best deal in terms of Watt-Hours versus Deutschmarks. 
> But they were also notorious for nasty leaks.

Needed a totch last year while traveling, and bought one that takes 
these flat batteries. And batteries to go with it. The cheapest set in 
the shop. The batteries proudly mentioned 'zinc-saline' as their 
composition.

As for the attery with the white cat on it: the brand 'witte kat' went 
to Varta, and not it seems Varta is getting rid of battery production 
altogether. But the battery I bought was of a different brand.


Thomas

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message 
news:KAG8h.17881$yl4.1920@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
> PFJ wrote:
>>
>> Great Rant. But when you have designed a product and think it's all over 
>> that's not the end - what about those long lead times; let alone the MOQ? 
>> It's a nightmare in electronic manufacturing.
>
> Old rule around here: If it ain't in stock at Digikey plus several reels 
> at Arrow, it ain't going to be designed in unless there is a very 
> compelling reason why it absolutely has to be this part.
>
> Keep them purchasers happy :-)

Yes, I have a similar rule (involving Farnell and, at a pinch, RS [1]). 
Except when I have to break my rule and buy e.g. H8 processors...

[1] Mini-rant: RS's online catalogue is b0rked. Compared to Farnell's, it's 
hopeless. A while back I had the fun of going through my preferred component 
database to check for, and find alternatives to, non-RoHS parts. With 
Farnell, it was fairly easy. With RS, it was impossible. (Semis: not so bad, 
since one can check the manufacturer's site. With passives, forget it.) Gah!

Steve
http://www.fivetrees.com 

PFJ wrote:


[ ... ]

> 
> Great Rant. But when you have designed a product and think it's all over 
> that's not the end - what about those long lead times; let alone the 
> MOQ? It's a nightmare in electronic manufacturing.
> 

Old rule around here: If it ain't in stock at Digikey plus several reels 
at Arrow, it ain't going to be designed in unless there is a very 
compelling reason why it absolutely has to be this part.

Keep them purchasers happy :-)

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Hello Daniel,

> 
>>Somehow that does not surprise me with this company. The sad part is 
>>that it was Philips that brought me into electronics. My parents got me 
>>an EE20 experimenters kit for Christmas when I was a kid. While in 
>>Europe their semi part were made and distributed by Valvo in Hamburg. 
>>They became part of Philips and the support was absolutely top notch. 
>>Back then I would not have dreamed that this could deteriorate so far 
>>and so fast.
>>
>>Same with Siemens BTW. After it became Infineon it went downhill IMHO, 
>>and fast.
>>
>>Plenty of examples how to do it right: Analog Devices, National, TI, and 
>>on and on. Hey Europe: Wake up!
> 
> 
> Amen!
> 

Good to hear that from someone who actually lives and engineers in 
Europe. Many Europeans counter that I am just whining about it but they 
never sat on this side of the pond trying to get an Infineon part (I 
won't try that again for a while...).

> 
>>Yep. But they fail to realize that today's small players are tomorrow's 
>>big guys.
> 
> 
> Yes!
> 
> 
>>The other thing they fail to see is that consultants often 
>>design complete mass products.
> 
> 
> Yes!
> 

I had one rep tell me flat out that they do not send sample to 
consultants, period. Huh? Even if I pay? Nope. Well, in newsgroup speak 
I plonked the part and went to the (American) competitor.


> I just got off the phone with a very nice guy at NXP. Actually it was very
> hard to get him /on/ the phone in the first place. All I need are some
> jellybean parts that are sold only by the 3000pc-reel by European
> distributors. So I wanted some samples. As I'm working at the University in
> Hamburg, the first number I tried was the Hamburg sales office. ...


What they don't realize is that some day you'll be in industry, making 
big $ decisions about which parts will be purchased. Back whan I was in 
academia I must say that Philips (it was still Valvo back then) was one 
of the best in terms of support. They gave me all the data books and 
samples I wanted, and pronto. Once I had a meeting with them, I believe 
at the Burchardstrasse plant in Hamburg. They put me up in a very nice 
Hotel (Reichshof?). I found friendly and competent people in a well run 
plant. The result of all this support was that my design-in rate for 
Philips parts was around 30%. Then the bottom fell out. Now it's, uhm, 
close to zero. So I was not surprised at all when they threw in the 
towel and auctioned off their semi biz.


>                                                           ... Tried 5
> times and never even got a ringtone. Next was Frankfurt. Got someone on the
> phone, but whenever she tried to get me through to someone we were
> disconnected (I tried this 3 times, each time got a different switchboard
> person who failed in the same manner). OK, Munich. Very friendly people
> told me that the person in charge for people "like me" (academics) was on
> vacation but back next week.
> 
> So I talked to him. He's going to get me samples, no problem. I asked him
> why the standard distributors aren't carrying these parts in small
> quantity, and why getting sample was so hard. Boy did I open up a can of
> worms. Essentially he told me all that you wrote in this post, including
> naming American mfgrs that are doing it the right way. ...


This is sad. I strongly feel that nothing short of a major personnel 
change at the executive level can truly help companies like that.


>                                           ... I asked him how NXP
> expected to get designed-in when it was so hard to get your hand on their
> products. He said he didn't know. I asked him to maybe raise the point with
> someone in charge. He said he'd long stopped doing that. I said that the
> people making $$$ purchase decisions were at one point little engineers,
> scientists or hobbyists. He said he knew. Since we had agreed on pretty 
> much everything it seemed we might as well end the conversation, which we 
> did.
> 
> 
>>If they don't support them then their 
>>parts will never make it in. Once a design decision has been made it's 
>>done and done. Next to impossible to get in after the ECO. I've had 
>>sales guys close to bursting into tears after they found that out the 
>>hard way.
> 
> 
> I'd love seeing that happen to someone at NXP or INfineon. 
> 

It's not going to. Unless major shareholders wake up and question 
corporate governance like what currently happens at some US automakers 
(which have similar problems) nothing is going to change IMHO.

> 
>>If they can't even figure that out they should at least sell through 
>>Digikey. But for large ranges of EU semiconductors that's not happening. 
>>Hence no design-wins.
> 
> 
> The stuff that I want is actually in stock at DigiKey. Nothing exotic. But
> ordering at DK from a German government office is a big hassle because they
> don't have a German sales office. The easiest method is going through my
> private credit card and getting reimbursed after a lot of red-taping.
> Besides, DK is generally more expensive than European distributors so it
> doesn't make sense to place a large order which, among some DK-only parts,
> contains stuff that could have been purchased locally.
> 
> 
>>>>>I made a final decision today to not bother looking for their parts any
>>>>>more - there's nothing they have I can't get elsewhere,
> 
> 
> Well, I always wanted to try out their BF862 and the PMBFJ620 dual (hoping 
> to replace those expensive TO78 parts). The 620's datasheet is complete 
> crap of course. Just a few "typical values" curves that look like someone 
> had jotted them down in a few seconds using log-log paper and a ruler. And 
> nothing, not even a hint, as to what kind of matching I might expect. But 
> cheap (if you want a 3000 reel).
> 
> 
>>I remember when Jan Timmer slammed the pulpit. He really had a fit about 
>>the financials. I wrote to him with some ideas and so did others but he 
>>didn't listen.
> 
> 
> I can give you the extension of someone in Munich who is good at listening 
> ;-)
> 

But that would only make sense if this person can move and shake things 
and, most of all, can initiate high-level personnel changes if needed. I 
have stopped writing to corporate management about lacking marketing 
efficiency because they don't listen. For me the solution is to move on 
to their competitors.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Haude Daniel wrote:
> In article <Jx87h.3811$yE6.25@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>, Joerg wrote:
> 
>> Somehow that does not surprise me with this company. The sad part is 
>> that it was Philips that brought me into electronics. My parents got me 
>> an EE20 experimenters kit for Christmas when I was a kid. While in 
>> Europe their semi part were made and distributed by Valvo in Hamburg. 
>> They became part of Philips and the support was absolutely top notch. 
>> Back then I would not have dreamed that this could deteriorate so far 
>> and so fast.
>>
>> Same with Siemens BTW. After it became Infineon it went downhill IMHO, 
>> and fast.
>>
>> Plenty of examples how to do it right: Analog Devices, National, TI, and 
>> on and on. Hey Europe: Wake up!
> 
> Amen!
> 
>> Yep. But they fail to realize that today's small players are tomorrow's 
>> big guys.
> 
> Yes!
> 
>> The other thing they fail to see is that consultants often 
>> design complete mass products.
> 
> Yes!
> 
> I just got off the phone with a very nice guy at NXP. Actually it was very
> hard to get him /on/ the phone in the first place. All I need are some
> jellybean parts that are sold only by the 3000pc-reel by European
> distributors. So I wanted some samples. As I'm working at the University in
> Hamburg, the first number I tried was the Hamburg sales office. Tried 5
> times and never even got a ringtone. Next was Frankfurt. Got someone on the
> phone, but whenever she tried to get me through to someone we were
> disconnected (I tried this 3 times, each time got a different switchboard
> person who failed in the same manner). OK, Munich. Very friendly people
> told me that the person in charge for people "like me" (academics) was on
> vacation but back next week.
> 
> So I talked to him. He's going to get me samples, no problem. I asked him
> why the standard distributors aren't carrying these parts in small
> quantity, and why getting sample was so hard. Boy did I open up a can of
> worms. Essentially he told me all that you wrote in this post, including
> naming American mfgrs that are doing it the right way. I asked him how NXP
> expected to get designed-in when it was so hard to get your hand on their
> products. He said he didn't know. I asked him to maybe raise the point with
> someone in charge. He said he'd long stopped doing that. I said that the
> people making $$$ purchase decisions were at one point little engineers,
> scientists or hobbyists. He said he knew. Since we had agreed on pretty 
> much everything it seemed we might as well end the conversation, which we 
> did.
> 
>> If they don't support them then their 
>> parts will never make it in. Once a design decision has been made it's 
>> done and done. Next to impossible to get in after the ECO. I've had 
>> sales guys close to bursting into tears after they found that out the 
>> hard way.
> 
> I'd love seeing that happen to someone at NXP or INfineon. 
> 
>> If they can't even figure that out they should at least sell through 
>> Digikey. But for large ranges of EU semiconductors that's not happening. 
>> Hence no design-wins.
> 
> The stuff that I want is actually in stock at DigiKey. Nothing exotic. But
> ordering at DK from a German government office is a big hassle because they
> don't have a German sales office. The easiest method is going through my
> private credit card and getting reimbursed after a lot of red-taping.
> Besides, DK is generally more expensive than European distributors so it
> doesn't make sense to place a large order which, among some DK-only parts,
> contains stuff that could have been purchased locally.
> 
>>>>> I made a final decision today to not bother looking for their parts any
>>>>> more - there's nothing they have I can't get elsewhere,
> 
> Well, I always wanted to try out their BF862 and the PMBFJ620 dual (hoping 
> to replace those expensive TO78 parts). The 620's datasheet is complete 
> crap of course. Just a few "typical values" curves that look like someone 
> had jotted them down in a few seconds using log-log paper and a ruler. And 
> nothing, not even a hint, as to what kind of matching I might expect. But 
> cheap (if you want a 3000 reel).
> 
>> I remember when Jan Timmer slammed the pulpit. He really had a fit about 
>> the financials. I wrote to him with some ideas and so did others but he 
>> didn't listen.
> 
> I can give you the extension of someone in Munich who is good at listening 
> ;-)
> 
> --Daniel


Great Rant. But when you have designed a product and think it's all over 
that's not the end - what about those long lead times; let alone the 
MOQ? It's a nightmare in electronic manufacturing.

Regards

P

In article <Jx87h.3811$yE6.25@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>, Joerg wrote:

> Somehow that does not surprise me with this company. The sad part is 
> that it was Philips that brought me into electronics. My parents got me 
> an EE20 experimenters kit for Christmas when I was a kid. While in 
> Europe their semi part were made and distributed by Valvo in Hamburg. 
> They became part of Philips and the support was absolutely top notch. 
> Back then I would not have dreamed that this could deteriorate so far 
> and so fast.
> 
> Same with Siemens BTW. After it became Infineon it went downhill IMHO, 
> and fast.
> 
> Plenty of examples how to do it right: Analog Devices, National, TI, and 
> on and on. Hey Europe: Wake up!

Amen!

> Yep. But they fail to realize that today's small players are tomorrow's 
> big guys.

Yes!

> The other thing they fail to see is that consultants often 
> design complete mass products.

Yes!

I just got off the phone with a very nice guy at NXP. Actually it was very
hard to get him /on/ the phone in the first place. All I need are some
jellybean parts that are sold only by the 3000pc-reel by European
distributors. So I wanted some samples. As I'm working at the University in
Hamburg, the first number I tried was the Hamburg sales office. Tried 5
times and never even got a ringtone. Next was Frankfurt. Got someone on the
phone, but whenever she tried to get me through to someone we were
disconnected (I tried this 3 times, each time got a different switchboard
person who failed in the same manner). OK, Munich. Very friendly people
told me that the person in charge for people "like me" (academics) was on
vacation but back next week.

So I talked to him. He's going to get me samples, no problem. I asked him
why the standard distributors aren't carrying these parts in small
quantity, and why getting sample was so hard. Boy did I open up a can of
worms. Essentially he told me all that you wrote in this post, including
naming American mfgrs that are doing it the right way. I asked him how NXP
expected to get designed-in when it was so hard to get your hand on their
products. He said he didn't know. I asked him to maybe raise the point with
someone in charge. He said he'd long stopped doing that. I said that the
people making $$$ purchase decisions were at one point little engineers,
scientists or hobbyists. He said he knew. Since we had agreed on pretty 
much everything it seemed we might as well end the conversation, which we 
did.

> If they don't support them then their 
> parts will never make it in. Once a design decision has been made it's 
> done and done. Next to impossible to get in after the ECO. I've had 
> sales guys close to bursting into tears after they found that out the 
> hard way.

I'd love seeing that happen to someone at NXP or INfineon. 

> If they can't even figure that out they should at least sell through 
> Digikey. But for large ranges of EU semiconductors that's not happening. 
> Hence no design-wins.

The stuff that I want is actually in stock at DigiKey. Nothing exotic. But
ordering at DK from a German government office is a big hassle because they
don't have a German sales office. The easiest method is going through my
private credit card and getting reimbursed after a lot of red-taping.
Besides, DK is generally more expensive than European distributors so it
doesn't make sense to place a large order which, among some DK-only parts,
contains stuff that could have been purchased locally.

> >>>I made a final decision today to not bother looking for their parts any
> >>>more - there's nothing they have I can't get elsewhere,

Well, I always wanted to try out their BF862 and the PMBFJ620 dual (hoping 
to replace those expensive TO78 parts). The 620's datasheet is complete 
crap of course. Just a few "typical values" curves that look like someone 
had jotted them down in a few seconds using log-log paper and a ruler. And 
nothing, not even a hint, as to what kind of matching I might expect. But 
cheap (if you want a 3000 reel).

> I remember when Jan Timmer slammed the pulpit. He really had a fit about 
> the financials. I wrote to him with some ideas and so did others but he 
> didn't listen.

I can give you the extension of someone in Munich who is good at listening 
;-)

--Daniel