Reply by Leon Heller August 31, 20042004-08-31
----- Original Message -----
From: "t402_owner" <>
To: <>
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 9:26 AM
Subject: [piclist] Re: PIC10F competition > golf swing gadget ... meter er... thingy?... :-) Way cool! Congrats!
>
> btw did you read about the guy who sent over 30 designs ? amazing...
>
> i thought of sending something - a light operated burglar alarm that
> would continuously check the level of luminosity against a 10 minute
> average - but somewhat lost interest in the process (not that
> original either...)
>
> Anyway just to say... well done! :-)

Thanks. I have subsequently found a similar device on the web (using a
3-axis accelerometer), but it's *much* more complex, larger and quite
expensive.

The PICkit 1 prize has given me a few ideas for interesting applications
using the 12F675.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
http://webspace.webring.com/people/jl/leon_heller/


Reply by Mr S August 30, 20042004-08-30
Vasile,
Thank you, leakage current on the analog i/o makes
sense now, and IS interesting.

Cheers

--- Vasile Surducan <> wrote:

>
> Leackage is a trick often understandable just by the
> analog engineers.
> That's maybe why, on a software discussion group
> noone will stop to answer
> to your question. That current does not matter for
> the sleep state
> comparable with the microcontroller sourced current.
> But it is very important for the AD input impedance
> or for the DA
> conversion using filtered PWM. Probably for the
> comparator inputs too.
> Knowing exactly the AD input leackage you know for
> instance that can go
> much higher than 20K (or 10K for some PICs) input
> impedance, value that
> Microchip is strongly suggesting in the datasheet.
> That means sometime you don't need buffers. And that
> means for 1K
> product will be cheaper because will be a smaller
> pcb, less components to
> solder etc.
>
> top 10 wishes,
> Vasile
> http://surducan.netfirms.com > On Sun, 29 Aug 2004, Mr S wrote:
>
> > It looks like 2% to me?
> > 18 pins = something like < 15uamps on a PIC if
> ground
> > and Vcc do not have leakage.
> >
> > Same size Atmel would be < 14.7 uamps?
> >
> > Why is that interesting? Does either have a 'sleep
> > mode' with zero leakage? That would be
> interesting?
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Wouter van Ooijen <> wrote:
> >
> > > > The really
> > > > interesting number I saw on the Atmel sheet
> was
> > > that maximum leakage
> > > > current on a typical pin is 980 na. and
> Microchip
> > > is way up there at 1
> > > > ua.
> > >
> > > Am I too rusty in my powers of 10 or is this
> just a
> > > difference 2% ?
> > >
> > > Wouter van Ooijen
> > >
> > > -- -------
> > > Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: www.voti.nl
> > > consultancy, development, PICmicro products
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > >
> > >
> > > to unsubscribe, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com
> and
> > > follow the instructions
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > to unsubscribe, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com
> and follow the instructions
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> --------------------~-->
> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
>
http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/dN_tlB/TM
>
--------------------------------~->
>
>
> to unsubscribe, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com and
> follow the instructions
> Yahoo! Groups Links >
>

__________________________________



Reply by Vasile Surducan August 30, 20042004-08-30

Leackage is a trick often understandable just by the analog engineers.
That's maybe why, on a software discussion group noone will stop to answer
to your question. That current does not matter for the sleep state
comparable with the microcontroller sourced current.
But it is very important for the AD input impedance or for the DA
conversion using filtered PWM. Probably for the comparator inputs too.
Knowing exactly the AD input leackage you know for instance that can go
much higher than 20K (or 10K for some PICs) input impedance, value that
Microchip is strongly suggesting in the datasheet.
That means sometime you don't need buffers. And that means for 1K
product will be cheaper because will be a smaller pcb, less components to
solder etc.

top 10 wishes,
Vasile
http://surducan.netfirms.com On Sun, 29 Aug 2004, Mr S wrote:

> It looks like 2% to me?
> 18 pins = something like < 15uamps on a PIC if ground
> and Vcc do not have leakage.
>
> Same size Atmel would be < 14.7 uamps?
>
> Why is that interesting? Does either have a 'sleep
> mode' with zero leakage? That would be interesting? >
> --- Wouter van Ooijen <> wrote:
>
> > > The really
> > > interesting number I saw on the Atmel sheet was
> > that maximum leakage
> > > current on a typical pin is 980 na. and Microchip
> > is way up there at 1
> > > ua.
> >
> > Am I too rusty in my powers of 10 or is this just a
> > difference 2% ?
> >
> > Wouter van Ooijen
> >
> > -- -------
> > Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: www.voti.nl
> > consultancy, development, PICmicro products
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> >
> > to unsubscribe, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com and
> > follow the instructions
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> >
> to unsubscribe, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com and follow the instructions
> Yahoo! Groups Links




Reply by Michael Puchol August 29, 20042004-08-29
Hi,

"rtstofer" <> Wrote:

> The devices chosen for a design will ALWAYS come down to the least
> expensive device capable of doing the job at hand. Engineers don't
> choose devices, Purchasing does. Who cares how nice they treated
> you in college - if the company needs 100,000+ parts Purchasing will
> be making the choices, with or without input from Engineering -
> engineers probably won't even be invited to the meetings. Ever
> notice how the Sales people come to talk to engineers but always
> want to know who is making the decisions? They know full well it
> isn't Engineering.

This is true, but very very sad. This is also why we see so many crappy,
buggy and unstable products on the market more and more often. There was a
time when the engineer chose the tool, and purchasing bought it, but asked
the engineer if they thought a cheaper one could also do. Now, as you say,
they don't bother asking. A good engineer, however, will always use the
cheapest possible part that will do the job too, and won't choose the latest
chip just because it's cool.

> At the end of the day, its about profit margin - for everyone. A
> product has a price target and competition to keep it there; every
> bit of manufacturing cost that can be driven out, will be. So what
> if the engineering time and programming expense is a little higher
> if a company can get lower production costs and higher margins?
> Engineering is an expense; a side issue of getting the product out
> the door.

But if the product is inferior, in the long run it will be worse for the
company image - the sad thing too is that a lot of companies are relying on
cheap labor, usually students not having finished their degrees, to design
their products. Yes, they should be supervised, but more often than not,
they are given a job and told to 'get on with it'. Who is going to bother
checking the hundreds or thousands of lines of code this inexperienced
person has written? If they had to double-check everything, they wouldn't
bother getting these people in the first place. Note: I have nothing against
work experience while you are a student or just come out of faculty, but I
don't agree with putting them at the wheel unsupervised.

Best regards,

Mike



Reply by Wouter van Ooijen August 29, 20042004-08-29
> The devices chosen for a design will ALWAYS come down to the least
> expensive device capable of doing the job at hand. Engineers don't
> choose devices, Purchasing does.

Yeah, in all jobs I have had my boss made the decisions. But the various
bosses very rarely decided outside my recommendations :)

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products


Reply by rtstofer August 29, 20042004-08-29

I figure the companies know all this and don't give it a lot of
thought. If it is easy to be accomodating, fine. If not, oh well.

The devices chosen for a design will ALWAYS come down to the least
expensive device capable of doing the job at hand. Engineers don't
choose devices, Purchasing does. Who cares how nice they treated
you in college - if the company needs 100,000+ parts Purchasing will
be making the choices, with or without input from Engineering -
engineers probably won't even be invited to the meetings. Ever
notice how the Sales people come to talk to engineers but always
want to know who is making the decisions? They know full well it
isn't Engineering.

At the end of the day, its about profit margin - for everyone. A
product has a price target and competition to keep it there; every
bit of manufacturing cost that can be driven out, will be. So what
if the engineering time and programming expense is a little higher
if a company can get lower production costs and higher margins?
Engineering is an expense; a side issue of getting the product out
the door.

Time to market is another metric - so get rid of the Brand X chip
programmers and get some Brand Y chip programmers, they'll
understand the devices. We're using Brand Y on this job... Cause
Purchasing said so... What the heck, outsource the design or get
some 'rent-a-grunts' over here to write the code. Don't put them on
our payroll - we'd have to provide compensation AND benefits.

Don't be overly impressed with your engineering credentials - no one
else is... Mine either, for that matter.
--- In , "Michael Puchol" <mpuchol@s...>
wrote:
> Hi Matt,
>
> I agree completely with what you say. In my case, Atmel has chosen
local
> reps that completely ignore potential costumers, requests for
samples made
> via Atmel's site are automatically forwarded to them, which means
they are
> promply ignored. So, any request for sample parts is an ordeal
which makes a
> costumer fear what he'll have to go through to get production
quantities.
> Imagine what a student will have to go through.
>
> Microchip, however, has an EXCELLENT sample parts request system,
it's
> convenient, fast (most of the time if parts are in stock, longest
it has
> taken for me was 2 1/2 weeks), and you can get quite a few
different parts
> for testing what's best for your design, no questions asked.
>
> One thing I learned when I was an engineering student was that
companies
> that give students facilities to use their products or services in
their
> research or projects are likely to get bussiness from them when
(and if)
> they end up in some company's development team. "Yeah, when I was
a student,
> Microchip was excellent, they sent me sample parts with no
problems, whereas
> Atmel completely ignored me". I've seen this happen, not with
> Atmel/Microchip, but with other manufacturers. I think
manufacturers should
> be very aware that students will be tomorrow's engineers,
managers, purchase
> department heads, etc. etc.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mike > ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Matt Pobursky" <ccsuser@m...>
> To: <>
> Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 5:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [piclist] Re: PIC10F competition > > To be fair, you're not comparing apples to apples. With the
STK500 you
> > are getting a "development board" that can program *some* AVR
parts,
> > some require an additional cost STK501 or STK502 module. The
STK500 is
> > not exactly compact and portable either.
>
> <SNIP>





Reply by Michael Puchol August 29, 20042004-08-29
Hi Matt,

I agree completely with what you say. In my case, Atmel has chosen local
reps that completely ignore potential costumers, requests for samples made
via Atmel's site are automatically forwarded to them, which means they are
promply ignored. So, any request for sample parts is an ordeal which makes a
costumer fear what he'll have to go through to get production quantities.
Imagine what a student will have to go through.

Microchip, however, has an EXCELLENT sample parts request system, it's
convenient, fast (most of the time if parts are in stock, longest it has
taken for me was 2 1/2 weeks), and you can get quite a few different parts
for testing what's best for your design, no questions asked.

One thing I learned when I was an engineering student was that companies
that give students facilities to use their products or services in their
research or projects are likely to get bussiness from them when (and if)
they end up in some company's development team. "Yeah, when I was a student,
Microchip was excellent, they sent me sample parts with no problems, whereas
Atmel completely ignored me". I've seen this happen, not with
Atmel/Microchip, but with other manufacturers. I think manufacturers should
be very aware that students will be tomorrow's engineers, managers, purchase
department heads, etc. etc.

Best regards,

Mike ----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Pobursky" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: [piclist] Re: PIC10F competition > To be fair, you're not comparing apples to apples. With the STK500 you
> are getting a "development board" that can program *some* AVR parts,
> some require an additional cost STK501 or STK502 module. The STK500 is
> not exactly compact and portable either.

<SNIP



Reply by Chad Russel August 29, 20042004-08-29
I thought it interesting that they would bother to take the 2% and 2
extra digits, so as to be able to use nano rather than rounding it to 1
micro. :p

Chad

--- Carlos Marcano <> wrote:

>
>
> >
> > > The really
> > > interesting number I saw on the Atmel sheet was that maximum
> leakage
> > > current on a typical pin is 980 na. and Microchip is way up there
> at 1
> > > ua.
> >
> > Am I too rusty in my powers of 10 or is this just a difference 2% ?
> >
> > Wouter van Ooijen
> >
>
> I had the same thought and I am not too old to be rusty about
> anything!
>
> *Carlos Marcano*
> -Guri, Venezuela-
> ---
=====
My software has no bugs, only undocumented features.
__________________________________



Reply by Carlos Marcano August 29, 20042004-08-29


>
> > The really
> > interesting number I saw on the Atmel sheet was that maximum leakage
> > current on a typical pin is 980 na. and Microchip is way up there at 1
> > ua.
>
> Am I too rusty in my powers of 10 or is this just a difference 2% ?
>
> Wouter van Ooijen
>

I had the same thought and I am not too old to be rusty about anything!

*Carlos Marcano*
-Guri, Venezuela-
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.745 / Virus Database: 497 - Release Date: 27/08/04



Reply by Mr S August 29, 20042004-08-29
It looks like 2% to me?
18 pins = something like < 15uamps on a PIC if ground
and Vcc do not have leakage.

Same size Atmel would be < 14.7 uamps?

Why is that interesting? Does either have a 'sleep
mode' with zero leakage? That would be interesting?
--- Wouter van Ooijen <> wrote:

> > The really
> > interesting number I saw on the Atmel sheet was
> that maximum leakage
> > current on a typical pin is 980 na. and Microchip
> is way up there at 1
> > ua.
>
> Am I too rusty in my powers of 10 or is this just a
> difference 2% ?
>
> Wouter van Ooijen
>
> -- -------
> Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: www.voti.nl
> consultancy, development, PICmicro products >
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> --------------------~-->
> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion
> Toolbar.
> Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
>
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/dN_tlB/TM
>
--------------------------------~->
>
>
> to unsubscribe, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com and
> follow the instructions
> Yahoo! Groups Links >
>


__________________________________________________