Antti wrote:
>>>the task is "low cost CPLD emulation" -
>>>so needed is only one feature FAST bit bang I/O
>>
>>Hi Antti,
>>
>>The fastest at handling boolean expressions has to be the 80C51,
>>as it has native boolean opcodes - but it's a strange task ?
>>
>>Why try and do low cost uC-CPLD emulation, when you can
>>already buy low cost CPLDs, in ISP Flash ?
>>
>>I'm trying to think what a uC could offer, that a genuine CPLD
>>would lack ? Do you perhaps mean vector testing of CPLD ?
>>
>>-jg- Zitierten Text ausblenden -
> Jim
> 
> TOTAL BOM cost has to be below 2.5 USD in qty 10K
> XC9536 is too small :(
> with some bigger CPLD+MCU the BOM cost raise too quickly :(
> 
> would need downgraded MAX2 smallest device under 3USD
> that could do the task
> 
> XC9572 alone too small when add MCU already sums up in cost

How much CPU resource do you need, and what does the CPLD
need to do ?

We use CPLD+uC a lot, and there are often a number
of ways to split the tasks, to keep the BOM down.
(but I'm sure you'll know that aready..)

The Atmel CPLDs are good at packing logic, with
care, you can get up to 3 node names per macrocell,
and their new ATF150xBE series measure up well.

-jg

On 17 Apr., 11:05, Jim Granville <no.s...@designtools.maps.co.nz>
wrote:
> Antti wrote:
> > On 26 Mrz., 20:41, "Ulf Samuelsson" <u...@a-t-m-e-l.com> wrote:
>
> >>"Antti" <Antti.Luk...@xilant.com> skrev i meddelandetnews:1174840374.493377.96380@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> >>>hi
>
> >>>anybody knows options for 50+MIPS 8/16 bit flash MCU?
>
> >>>besides PIC/SX/SiLabs? there must some around..
>
> >>>should FAST and cheap. not much flash required. internal oscillator is
> >>>a must.
>
> >>>Antti
>
> >>Take an ARM and execute out of SRAM.
>
> >>Most ARMs have an oscillator on chip
> >>(but you maybe wanted an onchip R/C oscillator :-)
> >>If so, what is the problem in having an external resonator?
> >>You did not mention package size?
>
> >>What is "not much flash"?
>
> >>Internal studies shows that SAM7 has faster access to SRAM than LPC.
> >>Asked a question here if anyone else seen the same thing, but saw no reply.
>
> >>--
> >>Best Regards,
> >>Ulf Samuelsson
> >>This is intended to be my personal opinion which may,
> >>or may not be shared by my employer Atmel Nordic AB
>
> > Thanks Ulf, and all other who responded.
> > gather some interesting but did not find the chip i was looking for :(
> > it does exist - TQFP64 package. But doesnt seem to be any
> > known candicate (checked almost all mcu's i can think of).
>
> > the task is "low cost CPLD emulation" -
> > so needed is only one feature FAST bit bang I/O
>
> Hi Antti,
>
> The fastest at handling boolean expressions has to be the 80C51,
> as it has native boolean opcodes - but it's a strange task ?
>
> Why try and do low cost uC-CPLD emulation, when you can
> already buy low cost CPLDs, in ISP Flash ?
>
> I'm trying to think what a uC could offer, that a genuine CPLD
> would lack ? Do you perhaps mean vector testing of CPLD ?
>
> -jg- Zitierten Text ausblenden -
>
> - Zitierten Text anzeigen -

Jim

TOTAL BOM cost has to be below 2.5 USD in qty 10K
XC9536 is too small :(
with some bigger CPLD+MCU the BOM cost raise too quickly :(

would need downgraded MAX2 smallest device under 3USD
that could do the task

XC9572 alone too small when add MCU already sums up in cost

Antti

Antti wrote:
> On 26 Mrz., 20:41, "Ulf Samuelsson" <u...@a-t-m-e-l.com> wrote:
> 
>>"Antti" <Antti.Luk...@xilant.com> skrev i meddelandetnews:1174840374.493377.96380@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>>hi
>>
>>>anybody knows options for 50+MIPS 8/16 bit flash MCU?
>>
>>>besides PIC/SX/SiLabs? there must some around..
>>
>>>should FAST and cheap. not much flash required. internal oscillator is
>>>a must.
>>
>>>Antti
>>
>>Take an ARM and execute out of SRAM.
>>
>>Most ARMs have an oscillator on chip
>>(but you maybe wanted an onchip R/C oscillator :-)
>>If so, what is the problem in having an external resonator?
>>You did not mention package size?
>>
>>What is "not much flash"?
>>
>>Internal studies shows that SAM7 has faster access to SRAM than LPC.
>>Asked a question here if anyone else seen the same thing, but saw no reply.
>>
>>--
>>Best Regards,
>>Ulf Samuelsson
>>This is intended to be my personal opinion which may,
>>or may not be shared by my employer Atmel Nordic AB
> 
> Thanks Ulf, and all other who responded.
> gather some interesting but did not find the chip i was looking for :(
> it does exist - TQFP64 package. But doesnt seem to be any
> known candicate (checked almost all mcu's i can think of).
> 
> the task is "low cost CPLD emulation" -
> so needed is only one feature FAST bit bang I/O

Hi Antti,

The fastest at handling boolean expressions has to be the 80C51,
as it has native boolean opcodes - but it's a strange task ?

Why try and do low cost uC-CPLD emulation, when you can
already buy low cost CPLDs, in ISP Flash ?

I'm trying to think what a uC could offer, that a genuine CPLD
would lack ? Do you perhaps mean vector testing of CPLD ?

-jg

On 26 Mrz., 20:41, "Ulf Samuelsson" <u...@a-t-m-e-l.com> wrote:
> "Antti" <Antti.Luk...@xilant.com> skrev i meddelandetnews:1174840374.493377.96380@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > hi
>
> > anybody knows options for 50+MIPS 8/16 bit flash MCU?
>
> > besides PIC/SX/SiLabs? there must some around..
>
> > should FAST and cheap. not much flash required. internal oscillator is
> > a must.
>
> > Antti
>
> Take an ARM and execute out of SRAM.
>
> Most ARMs have an oscillator on chip
> (but you maybe wanted an onchip R/C oscillator :-)
> If so, what is the problem in having an external resonator?
> You did not mention package size?
>
> What is "not much flash"?
>
> Internal studies shows that SAM7 has faster access to SRAM than LPC.
> Asked a question here if anyone else seen the same thing, but saw no reply.
>
> --
> Best Regards,
> Ulf Samuelsson
> This is intended to be my personal opinion which may,
> or may not be shared by my employer Atmel Nordic AB


Thanks Ulf, and all other who responded.
gather some interesting but did not find the chip i was looking for :(
it does exist - TQFP64 package. But doesnt seem to be any
known candicate (checked almost all mcu's i can think of).

the task is "low cost CPLD emulation" -
so needed is only one feature FAST bit bang I/O

Antti

On Mar 28, 1:41 pm, "linnix" <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
> On Mar 28, 7:30 am, "rickman" <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 27, 11:27 am, "linnix" <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 26, 9:53 am, "rickman" <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 25, 12:32 pm, "Antti" <Antti.Luk...@xilant.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > hi
>
> > > > > anybody knows options for 50+MIPS 8/16 bit flash MCU?
>
> > > > > besides PIC/SX/SiLabs? there must some around..
>
> > > > > should FAST and cheap. not much flash required. internal oscillator is
> > > > > a must.
>
> > > > Not sure if by "internal oscillator" you mean a free running clock or
> > > > a crystal oscillator on chip with external crystal.  The Luminary
> > > > Micro Stellaris parts contain an internal free running clock. This
> > > > runs at 15 MHz, but you may be able to run this through the PLL to get
> > > > the 50 MHz you need.
>
> > > I am not sure you can do that.  Part of the PLL configuration is to
> > > switch to internal clock temporary.  The internal clock is likely to
> > > be completely independent from the PLL (at 200 MHz).  If he wants
> > > 50MHz, external crystal is unavoidable.
>
> > I am pretty sure you can use the internal clock in conjunction with
> > the PLL.  The block diagram shows that pretty clearly.  I have not
> > tried this, but I don't see any caution against this in the manual and
> > I don't see a spec limitation that would prevent it.
>
> The limitation is that it is difficult to do so.
>
>
>
>
>
> > Ahhh,  here it is from the LM3S601 manual, page 83.
>
> > Oscillator-Related Bits
> > 5:4 OSCSRC R/W 0x0 Picks among the four input sources for the OSC. The
> > values are:
> > Value Input Source
> > 00 Main oscillator (default)
> > 01 Internal oscillator
> > 10 Internal oscillator / 4 (this is necessary if used as input to PLL)
> > 11 reserved
>
> > Notice the /4 setting on the internal osc is used when sourcing the
> > PLL with this clock.
>
> > It is important to consider that the internal clock has a WIDE
> > variation over temp, voltage and process... 7 to 22 MHz with 15
> > typical.  Perhaps one of the LPC or SAM7 parts would have a tighter
> > internal clock rate?  Or you can adjust the PLL to optimize the
> > running rate if you have an external reference of any kind, such as a
> > baud rate input on a UART?
>
> As you said, the internal clock could be 7 to 22 MHz.  1/4 freq. would
> be 2 to 5 MHz.  You would have to constantly adjust the RCC for source
> freq.  Otherwise, the PLL can get out of lock and your timings are
> screwed.
> Or worst, the micro can lock up with out of range clock source.

Yes, you would need to adjust the PLL settings to keep a constant
frequency.  But a drift in the internal oscillator would not cause a
"lock up" or other failure in the PLL.  At least there is nothing in
the documentation that indicates this.

On Mar 28, 7:30 am, "rickman" <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 27, 11:27 am, "linnix" <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 26, 9:53 am, "rickman" <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 25, 12:32 pm, "Antti" <Antti.Luk...@xilant.com> wrote:
>
> > > > hi
>
> > > > anybody knows options for 50+MIPS 8/16 bit flash MCU?
>
> > > > besides PIC/SX/SiLabs? there must some around..
>
> > > > should FAST and cheap. not much flash required. internal oscillator is
> > > > a must.
>
> > > Not sure if by "internal oscillator" you mean a free running clock or
> > > a crystal oscillator on chip with external crystal.  The Luminary
> > > Micro Stellaris parts contain an internal free running clock. This
> > > runs at 15 MHz, but you may be able to run this through the PLL to get
> > > the 50 MHz you need.
>
> > I am not sure you can do that.  Part of the PLL configuration is to
> > switch to internal clock temporary.  The internal clock is likely to
> > be completely independent from the PLL (at 200 MHz).  If he wants
> > 50MHz, external crystal is unavoidable.
>
> I am pretty sure you can use the internal clock in conjunction with
> the PLL.  The block diagram shows that pretty clearly.  I have not
> tried this, but I don't see any caution against this in the manual and
> I don't see a spec limitation that would prevent it.

The limitation is that it is difficult to do so.

>
> Ahhh,  here it is from the LM3S601 manual, page 83.
>
> Oscillator-Related Bits
> 5:4 OSCSRC R/W 0x0 Picks among the four input sources for the OSC. The
> values are:
> Value Input Source
> 00 Main oscillator (default)
> 01 Internal oscillator
> 10 Internal oscillator / 4 (this is necessary if used as input to PLL)
> 11 reserved
>
> Notice the /4 setting on the internal osc is used when sourcing the
> PLL with this clock.
>
> It is important to consider that the internal clock has a WIDE
> variation over temp, voltage and process... 7 to 22 MHz with 15
> typical.  Perhaps one of the LPC or SAM7 parts would have a tighter
> internal clock rate?  Or you can adjust the PLL to optimize the
> running rate if you have an external reference of any kind, such as a
> baud rate input on a UART?

As you said, the internal clock could be 7 to 22 MHz.  1/4 freq. would
be 2 to 5 MHz.  You would have to constantly adjust the RCC for source
freq.  Otherwise, the PLL can get out of lock and your timings are
screwed.
Or worst, the micro can lock up with out of range clock source.

On Mar 27, 11:27 am, "linnix" <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
> On Mar 26, 9:53 am, "rickman" <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 25, 12:32 pm, "Antti" <Antti.Luk...@xilant.com> wrote:
>
> > > hi
>
> > > anybody knows options for 50+MIPS 8/16 bit flash MCU?
>
> > > besides PIC/SX/SiLabs? there must some around..
>
> > > should FAST and cheap. not much flash required. internal oscillator is
> > > a must.
>
> > Not sure if by "internal oscillator" you mean a free running clock or
> > a crystal oscillator on chip with external crystal.  The Luminary
> > Micro Stellaris parts contain an internal free running clock. This
> > runs at 15 MHz, but you may be able to run this through the PLL to get
> > the 50 MHz you need.
>
> I am not sure you can do that.  Part of the PLL configuration is to
> switch to internal clock temporary.  The internal clock is likely to
> be completely independent from the PLL (at 200 MHz).  If he wants
> 50MHz, external crystal is unavoidable.

I am pretty sure you can use the internal clock in conjunction with
the PLL.  The block diagram shows that pretty clearly.  I have not
tried this, but I don't see any caution against this in the manual and
I don't see a spec limitation that would prevent it.

Ahhh,  here it is from the LM3S601 manual, page 83.

Oscillator-Related Bits
5:4 OSCSRC R/W 0x0 Picks among the four input sources for the OSC. The
values are:
Value Input Source
00 Main oscillator (default)
01 Internal oscillator
10 Internal oscillator / 4 (this is necessary if used as input to PLL)
11 reserved

Notice the /4 setting on the internal osc is used when sourcing the
PLL with this clock.

It is important to consider that the internal clock has a WIDE
variation over temp, voltage and process... 7 to 22 MHz with 15
typical.  Perhaps one of the LPC or SAM7 parts would have a tighter
internal clock rate?  Or you can adjust the PLL to optimize the
running rate if you have an external reference of any kind, such as a
baud rate input on a UART?

On Mar 26, 9:53 am, "rickman" <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 25, 12:32 pm, "Antti" <Antti.Luk...@xilant.com> wrote:
>
> > hi
>
> > anybody knows options for 50+MIPS 8/16 bit flash MCU?
>
> > besides PIC/SX/SiLabs? there must some around..
>
> > should FAST and cheap. not much flash required. internal oscillator is
> > a must.
>
> Not sure if by "internal oscillator" you mean a free running clock or
> a crystal oscillator on chip with external crystal.  The Luminary
> Micro Stellaris parts contain an internal free running clock. This
> runs at 15 MHz, but you may be able to run this through the PLL to get
> the 50 MHz you need.

I am not sure you can do that.  Part of the PLL configuration is to
switch to internal clock temporary.  The internal clock is likely to
be completely independent from the PLL (at 200 MHz).  If he wants
50MHz, external crystal is unavoidable.


Typically the internal clocks are not very
> accurate or temperature stable.  So you may have to set it to
> something well below 50 MHz to make sure it is within the correct
> tolerance.  I expect this is going to be an issue with nearly any 50+
> MHz processor, but not so much with the slower, low end parts around
> 4-20 MHz.

"Antti" <Antti.Lukats@xilant.com> skrev i meddelandet 
news:1174840374.493377.96380@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> hi
>
> anybody knows options for 50+MIPS 8/16 bit flash MCU?
>
> besides PIC/SX/SiLabs? there must some around..
>
> should FAST and cheap. not much flash required. internal oscillator is
> a must.

Most high speed micros are 32 bit, but they are dropping in price.

If by internal oscillator, you do not mean internal R/C oscillator,
you can always run an ARM from internal SRAM to get max speed.

Internal tests shows that an SAM7 is superior to LPC parts
when both are executing from SRAM at the same clock frequency.
I asked a question some time ago, if anyone seen similar results
but got no replies.

How much flash is needed?

>
> Antti
>


-- 
Best Regards,
Ulf Samuelsson
This is intended to be my personal opinion which may,
or may not be shared by my employer Atmel Nordic AB