Reply by Mike McCarty August 25, 20062006-08-25
Mike Phillips wrote:

[snip]

> The software I've seen is pcbbug11, jbug, picobug. The steps for
> programming look like this:
>
> http://www.hobby-lcd.com/68hc11/pgbug_howto.htm
>
> This could be what I need for software.

Do you need a copy of the program I have which might run
on a faster processor, or not? Or do you know yet?

> The schematic for programming an hc711k4 part might ressemble page 100
> of this file:
>
> http://www.freescale.com/files/microcontrollers/doc/user_guide/M68PCBUG11.pdf?srch=1

What kind of progress are you making? We're still here to help.

Mike
--
p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
Reply by Mike McCarty August 16, 20062006-08-16
Mike Phillips wrote:
> If I got this right, the constants and variables are loaded into the
> eeprom in the k4 version of the hc711. The main vehicle program is
> loaded into the prom.

I don't know, but this would be the normal way, yes. I don't know
the specifics of your situation. But this is a good guess.

> The eeprom contents can be read by using a tiny progam. Something
> about dumping memory? This is what the vehicle owner can screw up. So
> it needs to be fixed by downloading a new eeprom file with the correct
> default constants and variables values.

This partly makes sense. What would screw up the content? But if the
above conjecture is correct, then reprogramming the EEPROM would
restore proper operation, supposing that the circuit was otherwise
operating.

> The software I've seen is pcbbug11, jbug, picobug. The steps for
> programming look like this:

I've used PCBUG11 and also written my own download programs
for that purpose.

> http://www.hobby-lcd.com/68hc11/pgbug_howto.htm
>
> This could be what I need for software.

It could be, but PCBUG11 has some ancient code in it, which
using timing loops (in the Borland Pascal link library) to
create delays. The initialization code for these routines
fail on fast processors, due to finding that one loop takes
zero microseconds, and trying to divide by zero. There are
several purported fixes. The only one guaranteed to work
is to use a slow processor. I have an old 160 MHz 486 system
devoted to that. But I've gotten a patcher which purports
to solve this problem for all such programs, and produced
a patched version which runs on my Linux machine 2.7 GHz,
using FreeDOS and dosemu, an MSDOS emulation package.
This patched version might run on your machine. It's worth
a try, anyway. Note that I said it runs. I don't know that
it works. I haven't tried to use it to download anything
to a chip.

> The schematic for programming an hc711k4 part might ressemble page 100
> of this file:
>
> http://www.freescale.com/files/microcontrollers/doc/user_guide/M68PCBUG11.pdf?srch=1

If you want to use the Method 1 or Method 3 to program the part, yes.
The MC14507 shown in that circuit is an RS232<->TTL level translator.
You may substitute a MAX232, or even just a couple of transistors
for that IC. PD1 (TX) does need a pull-up resistor which the
ICs supply. If you use a transistor level translator, then you'd have
to be sure to do that. Any of several chips may be used to supply
RESET to the uController, but DO NOT JUST CONNECT A CAPACITOR/RESISTOR
combo. Doing that won't damage the chip, but during power down it can
cause EEPROM content corruption, which is something you apparently
really need not to happen. Also, you really should put pull up/down
on all pins configured as Input which are not used. This circuit
does not show that. I've never had a problem with blowing one of
the A or E series chips by handling them, and I suppose the K series
is no less robust. But Moto/Freescale state that you should.

The pin numbers given for P1 (RS232 port) are for the 25 pin connectors
we all used and loved so long ago. Today, the 9 pin version is much
more common, and would require pin number changes.

> There is a vpp pin that is apparently very important to the
> programming process of the k4 version. This pin is not on other
> variations of the hc11, I believe.

Something like it should be present on all EPROM/OTP parts.

> Am I close?
>
> Did I climb half way up the hill?

Yes, you are making progress.

Now go look at the circuit diagram in Figure 6 on page 21 of the
URL I gave you, and see whether you think this is easier. You'd
need something which could program 27C256 chips. A Google search
for this turned up 36000 hits. I see that one sold on eBay for
$36 + $10 s/h (USD) recently.

http://cgi.ebay.com/27C256-Dual-Powered-Willem-EPROM-Programmer_W0QQitemZ130014444272QQcmdZViewItem

OTOH, someone posted that he may have heard that EPROM emulation
mode has some problem. Can anyone verify this? Google seemed
not to turn up anything.

Mike
--
p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
Reply by Mike Phillips August 16, 20062006-08-16
If I got this right, the constants and variables are loaded into the
eeprom in the k4 version of the hc711. The main vehicle program is
loaded into the prom.

The eeprom contents can be read by using a tiny progam. Something
about dumping memory? This is what the vehicle owner can screw up. So
it needs to be fixed by downloading a new eeprom file with the correct
default constants and variables values.

The software I've seen is pcbbug11, jbug, picobug. The steps for
programming look like this:

http://www.hobby-lcd.com/68hc11/pgbug_howto.htm

This could be what I need for software.

The schematic for programming an hc711k4 part might ressemble page 100
of this file:

http://www.freescale.com/files/microcontrollers/doc/user_guide/M68PCBUG11.pdf?srch=1

There is a vpp pin that is apparently very important to the
programming process of the k4 version. This pin is not on other
variations of the hc11, I believe.

Am I close?

Did I climb half way up the hill?

Mike

--- In m..., BobGardner@... wrote:
>
> Mike & Bob.... I think keeping the EVs with the HC11s updated is a
good
> project... I have used many different HC11 variants and written
several little
> bootable programs that get downloaded to HC11 ram at poweron to test
ram and
> rom, test the ports by flashing pins etc. You should look at the
programs
> supplied by Technological Arts with their HC11 microstamps... there
is asm source
> to bootable programs and rom burning programs, etc. I am willing to
help in
> this regard, but I'm in Orlando, so you'd need to send one of em to
me so I
> could work on it. Perhaps a neat plan is to make a new board with an
AVR or
> something that would plug right into the PLCC socket and have more
functionality!
>
>
>
Reply by Mike Phillips August 16, 20062006-08-16
I agree about using a new processor. But for now we just need to make
these things repairable by making our own tools. I've made a test
fixture that simulates the vehicle. That helps alot! But once in a
while someone smokes a processor, or changes the constants into
oblivion and they need a reset.

Do you guys know what schematic I'm describing?

Mike
--- B...@aol.com wrote:

> Mike & Bob.... I think keeping the EVs with the HC11s updated is a
> good
> project... I have used many different HC11 variants and written
> several little
> bootable programs that get downloaded to HC11 ram at poweron to test
> ram and
> rom, test the ports by flashing pins etc. You should look at the
> programs
> supplied by Technological Arts with their HC11 microstamps... there
> is asm source
> to bootable programs and rom burning programs, etc. I am willing to
> help in
> this regard, but I'm in Orlando, so you'd need to send one of em to
> me so I
> could work on it. Perhaps a neat plan is to make a new board with an
> AVR or
> something that would plug right into the PLCC socket and have more
> functionality!
>
>
Reply by Mike McCarty August 16, 20062006-08-16
B...@aol.com wrote:
> Mike & Bob.... I think keeping the EVs with the HC11s updated is a good
> project... I have used many different HC11 variants and written several little

It is, especially for those who have the autos :-)

> bootable programs that get downloaded to HC11 ram at poweron to test ram and
> rom, test the ports by flashing pins etc. You should look at the programs

I suspect that most of the subscribers have done this and more.

> supplied by Technological Arts with their HC11 microstamps... there is asm source
> to bootable programs and rom burning programs, etc. I am willing to help in
> this regard, but I'm in Orlando, so you'd need to send one of em to me so I
> could work on it. Perhaps a neat plan is to make a new board with an AVR or
> something that would plug right into the PLCC socket and have more functionality!

It would require a complete rewrite of the firmware, which would require
complete reverse engineering of the part. One would have to reverse
engineer the part, develop a set of requirements from the reverse
engineering, then have a set of "clean room" engineers design the
replacement. (Unless he can get permission to reverse-engineer, and
get the specs from whoever owns the IE from the defunct company.)

If he continues as he is, then all he needs is a legitimate
copy of the firmware with permission to duplicate for personal use.

Mike
--
p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
Reply by BobG...@aol.com August 16, 20062006-08-16
Mike & Bob.... I think keeping the EVs with the HC11s updated is a good
project... I have used many different HC11 variants and written several little
bootable programs that get downloaded to HC11 ram at poweron to test ram and
rom, test the ports by flashing pins etc. You should look at the programs
supplied by Technological Arts with their HC11 microstamps... there is asm source
to bootable programs and rom burning programs, etc. I am willing to help in
this regard, but I'm in Orlando, so you'd need to send one of em to me so I
could work on it. Perhaps a neat plan is to make a new board with an AVR or
something that would plug right into the PLCC socket and have more functionality!