On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 11:01:47 GMT, onestone <onestoneXYZ@ABCbigpond.net.au> wrote:

>Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:07:46 -0700, David Linker <dtlinker@u.washington.edu>
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>><snip>
>>>What I don't know is the life-cycle of microcontrollers. If I design for 
>>>a particular package (surface mount) and processor, what is the 
>>>probability that it or some pin and code compatible equivalent will 
>>>still be available some years later?
>> 
>> 
>> This is phrased as a rather general question and any rather general answer will
>> probably not be very useful when you try and apply it to specific circumstances,
>> such as the Mot part you mentioned.  And eventually, everything goes away (try
>> getting an 8087 math coproc, for example.)
>
>Hi Jon, I'm down to my last 10 or so. I also still have a few original 
>8088's and ceramic 8086's. Also 8080, 8085, 8008 and even a few 4004's. 
>The latter parts are all stashed, as 'mementoes'. The former were used 
>until a few years ago to maintain some old semicon gear.

Have you seen the sort of prices that 4004's fetch on ebay.... $200-300 for the gold ones!

David Linker wrote:

>What I don't know is the life-cycle of microcontrollers. If I design for 
>a particular package (surface mount) and processor, what is the 
>probability that it or some pin and code compatible equivalent will 
>still be available some years later?

If your quantities are small, you can just buy them as you need them
and then, if and when they are discontinued, do a bulk buy of enough 
chips to last you for as many years as you wish.

If your quantities are medium, it will make more economic sense 
to redesign if and when they are discontinued - or earlier just
to use a cheaper part.

If your quantities are large, they will keep making the chip just
to keep you supplied.  

-- 
Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com>

Jonathan Kirwan wrote:

> On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:07:46 -0700, David Linker <dtlinker@u.washington.edu>
> wrote:
> 
> 
>><snip>
>>What I don't know is the life-cycle of microcontrollers. If I design for 
>>a particular package (surface mount) and processor, what is the 
>>probability that it or some pin and code compatible equivalent will 
>>still be available some years later?
> 
> 
> This is phrased as a rather general question and any rather general answer will
> probably not be very useful when you try and apply it to specific circumstances,
> such as the Mot part you mentioned.  And eventually, everything goes away (try
> getting an 8087 math coproc, for example.)

Hi Jon, I'm down to my last 10 or so. I also still have a few original 
8088's and ceramic 8086's. Also 8080, 8085, 8008 and even a few 4004's. 
The latter parts are all stashed, as 'mementoes'. The former were used 
until a few years ago to maintain some old semicon gear.

Al


> 
> Once you've selected the range of reasonable choices given your requirements and
> boundary conditions, you might call the few manufacturers (and distributors, as
> well) and ask for a detailed sense.  Such opinions or statements may not be
> accurate either but they will be more aligned with the part than general
> comments might be, I think.  Also, you can tell them the time period you are
> considering with more accuracy, I suppose, than you have here.
> 
> 
>>I know that Freescale was recently 
>>spun off of Motorola. Is this reassuring or worrisome?
> 
> 
> I don't know that anyone can tell you what the results will be.  One guess might
> be that there will be a narrower focus with more concentration on what is
> successful and a willingness to shuck away that which isn't, because they may
> not be able to internally fund a poorly performing (marketwise) product for as
> long as Mot might choose to do.  On the other hand, they may also be more
> willing to take the longer view in order to build reputation.  Or it just might
> be that you picked the one that will be more successful, longer term.
> 
> Jon

-- 
Please remove capitalised letters to reply
My apologies for the inconvenience
Blame it on the morons that spam the net

Hi Hans-Bernhard,

>"Forever" meaning "until the last fab still using that appropriate
>process is torn down".  Which may last quite a bit less long than
>"forever" is often expected to imply.
>  
>
It's not all that bad. We have done some chips that are now really old, 
on an early 80's process and still in full production. There are some 
smaller fabs that are pretty good about longevity of processes, for 
example AMI. Never had any problems there. Except when you have to go 
there in winter because it gets to be freaking cold in Idaho :-)

>IOW: you had better get not just the masks, but also the construction
>plans and rights for the fab.
>  
>
That's what I meant, not just the masks but also the rights to produce 
for in-house purposes. That kind of deal is often agreed to as long as 
the chips aren't produced for resale as parts.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

On 24 Sep 2004 18:17:23 GMT, Hans-Bernhard Broeker
<broeker@physik.rwth-aachen.de> wrote:

>IOW: you had better get not just the masks, but also the construction
>plans and rights for the fab.

...and commitments from all the suppliers and vendors for the FAB to supply
replacement parts, training, and otherwise continue supporting their
products....

Jon

Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

> Then you can have it made somewhere on an appropriate process and go
> on forever.

"Forever" meaning "until the last fab still using that appropriate
process is torn down".  Which may last quite a bit less long than
"forever" is often expected to imply.

IOW: you had better get not just the masks, but also the construction
plans and rights for the fab.

-- 
Hans-Bernhard Broeker (broeker@physik.rwth-aachen.de)
Even if all the snow were burnt, ashes would remain.

Hi Steve,

>Manufacturers will also give you advanced notice of products that will
>be discontinued, at that point you can do a lifetime buy or
>alternatively buy enough of them so you can have time to redesign your
>product.
>  
>
With really, really large qties and mask ROM you may also be able to 
negotiate the rights to the masks should it be discontinued within the 
next x years. Then you can have it made somewhere on an appropriate 
process and go on forever.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

David Linker <dtlinker@u.washington.edu> wrote in message news:<dtlinker-856B0E.14074522092004@gnus01.u.washington.edu>...
> I am new to microcontrollers, and am in the process of designing a 
> prototype of what I hope to be a commercial device. I have narrowed down 
> the choices of microcontroller, and so far the best choice seems to be 
> the Freescale M68HC08 family, because of low-cost and power, and up to 
> 4K RAM. I should mention that I am at a university.
> 
> What I don't know is the life-cycle of microcontrollers. If I design for 
> a particular package (surface mount) and processor, what is the 
> probability that it or some pin and code compatible equivalent will 
> still be available some years later? I know that Freescale was recently 
> spun off of Motorola. Is this reassuring or worrisome?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> David Linker

You have to consider that for a commercial device "some years later"
you will probably have to do a cost reduction redesign to stay
competitive, also, distributors stock excess microcontrollers long
after the manufacturer has discontinued them so thats an option
(unless you need 100,000 of them, but 10,000 is common).
Manufacturers will also give you advanced notice of products that will
be discontinued, at that point you can do a lifetime buy or
alternatively buy enough of them so you can have time to redesign your
product.

steve

Hello Hans-Bernhard,

>... or prepare plans to throw future students at the project to re-design it if the chip does indeed vanish. 
>
That is a good idea. Even in my days 20 years back it became harder to 
find a true hardware project. That, BTW, was at the same university 
where you are now.

> At the very least, assign someone to keep an eye on the part maker and set aside
>funds to buy lifetime stocked supply as soon as the part threatens to be discontinued.
>  
>
What funds? Just kidding but funds for HW parts were usually hard to 
come by. Unless the project had industry funding which was my favorite 
way to go.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com