"Chris H" <chris@phaedsys.org> wrote in message
news:r+7wT3DQG5ZHFAJ8@phaedsys.demon.co.uk...
> In message <4766a8d9.1306680640@192.168.0.50>, Stephen Pelc
> <stephenXXX@mpeforth.com> writes
>>On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:08:53 +0100, David Brown
>><david.brown@hesbynett.removethisbit.no> wrote:
>>
>>>Other than your knee-jerk reaction against anything open source, do you
>>>have any actual *logic* for a company to support a Solaris tool and not
>>>a Linux version?
>>
>>Could it just be that people who use Solaris are more willing to
>>pay for software than people who use Linux?
>
> Most of the areas where Solaris is used cost is not the primary driver. It
> is reliability
>
> BTW there are free versions of Solaris. I run them here. Solaris can be
> free (just not OS)
Huh? What about Sun's OpenSolaris project then?
http://opensolaris.org/os/
It states "The OpenSolaris project is an open source community and a place
for collaboration and conversation around OpenSolaris technology."
-- Paul.
Reply by Chris H●December 18, 20072007-12-18
In message <4766a8d9.1306680640@192.168.0.50>, Stephen Pelc
<stephenXXX@mpeforth.com> writes
>On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:08:53 +0100, David Brown
><david.brown@hesbynett.removethisbit.no> wrote:
>
>>Other than your knee-jerk reaction against anything open source, do you
>>have any actual *logic* for a company to support a Solaris tool and not
>>a Linux version?
>
>Could it just be that people who use Solaris are more willing to
>pay for software than people who use Linux?
Most of the areas where Solaris is used cost is not the primary driver.
It is reliability
BTW there are free versions of Solaris. I run them here. Solaris can be
free (just not OS)
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Reply by David Brown●December 17, 20072007-12-17
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Reply by David Brown●December 17, 20072007-12-17
Stephen Pelc wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:08:53 +0100, David Brown
> <david.brown@hesbynett.removethisbit.no> wrote:
>
>> Other than your knee-jerk reaction against anything open source, do you
>> have any actual *logic* for a company to support a Solaris tool and not
>> a Linux version?
>
> Could it just be that people who use Solaris are more willing to
> pay for software than people who use Linux?
>
> Stephen
>
>
It's conceivable, but most engineering professionals are happy to pay
for tools (software or hardware) that do a good job and provide value
for money. People *do* buy software that runs on Linux - just as people
run free (as in "beer" and/or as in "money") software on Windows and
Solaris. I don't think many people would expect to get a compiler from
Tasking for free just because it runs on Linux.
Reply by Stephen Pelc●December 17, 20072007-12-17
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:08:53 +0100, David Brown
<david.brown@hesbynett.removethisbit.no> wrote:
>Other than your knee-jerk reaction against anything open source, do you
>have any actual *logic* for a company to support a Solaris tool and not
>a Linux version?
Could it just be that people who use Solaris are more willing to
pay for software than people who use Linux?
Stephen
--
Stephen Pelc, stephenXXX@mpeforth.com
MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691
web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads
Reply by David Brown●December 17, 20072007-12-17
msg wrote:
> David Brown wrote:
>
>> Chris Hills wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> All other things being equal, I prefer to use open source software
>> because I prefer the flexibility it gives me, and I prefer the open
>> development model for software running on a PC.
>
> It makes little difference to the average PC user, but for apps that
> must conform to a variety of reliability standards, wouldn't you
> agree that a top-down model of development is best? Take any open-
> source RTOS for example; there is often the open development version
> and the certified closed version which has passed various certifications.
>
> In any case, much of the AT&T codebase is present in OpenSolaris and
> everyone can benefit from its elegance and maturity; also the BSD
> codebase stands as a more mature and arguably more efficient programming
> effort than can be found in Linux.
>
> If major open-source projects were run by a core groups of people
> who have been vetted by certification bodies and who ran the projects
> using proven project-management methods and who employed standards
> in merging and releasing submitted works, it would be easier to
> promote them for general acceptance. The ad-hoc approach taken by
> most of these doesn't lend itself to reasonable levels of confidence,
> unless you expect every user to have the skill and time to analyze
> the codebases of each program they employ and willy-nilly upgrade
> on every patch or minor release.
>
The BSD's have small core groups that handle most of the development,
and they certainly have a reputation for being solid, reliable and
secure OS's. Linux, along with many open source projects, has a much
more open development model. It's not quite ad-hoc, but it is very
unlike closed-source development groups. However, the quality of the
code and development process is strongly influenced by the various large
commercial interests involved - both dedicated companies such as Red
Hat, and other mixed companies such as IBM and Sun. Thus a lot of open
source software is developed by commercial entities, for commercial
entities, but with an open development model.
> In consumer devices this may be of little importance except when
> considering lost productivity, but in communications infrastructure,
> and areas impacting national product, security and competitiveness,
> wouldn't you agree that software security and reliability should be
> accorded more importance than it has to date?
Absolutely - there is no doubt that in some areas, security and
reliability are critical, whereas others need a different balance with
things like features, cost, or development time. No one choice of
priorities suits all software.
> Closed or open-source,
> isn't it about time that software that impacts vast areas of human
> endeavor (such as MS Windows on PCs) should be required to pass
> suites of security and vulnerability testing?
Again, you'll get no arguments from me here.
The main issue with windows and its lack of security, however, is not so
much the development model (although it's closed source development
model certainly makes it worse) or even lack of testing (windows is
tested far more than any other system - although not necessarily tested
as well or as completely). Windows has been developed from a
single-user, closed environment, non-networked system - all security
measures have been tacked on as afterthoughts, and in any conflict
between ease-of-use and security, MS have prioritised ease-of-use.
Solaris, Linux and BSD, on the other hand, have their design philosophy
from unix - where multi-user, networking and security have been
fundamental from the start. If windows is ever going to be considered a
secure system, then MS are going to have to throw out the guts and start
again (or "borrow" a BSD, like Apple did).
> I'm not one to support
> governmental interference in most things, but there will be little
> impetus to correct the huge problems plaguing the Internet until
> MS is forced to fix its products to stop proliferations of distributed
> malware that is choking effective use of e-mail and other services.
> Can you even _imagine_ such a thing being permitted during the days
> of regulated telecomm as what has happened to the 'net?
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael
Reply by msg●December 16, 20072007-12-16
David Brown wrote:
> Chris Hills wrote:
<snip>
> All other things being equal, I prefer to use open source software
> because I prefer the flexibility it gives me, and I prefer the open
> development model for software running on a PC.
It makes little difference to the average PC user, but for apps that
must conform to a variety of reliability standards, wouldn't you
agree that a top-down model of development is best? Take any open-
source RTOS for example; there is often the open development version
and the certified closed version which has passed various certifications.
In any case, much of the AT&T codebase is present in OpenSolaris and
everyone can benefit from its elegance and maturity; also the BSD
codebase stands as a more mature and arguably more efficient programming
effort than can be found in Linux.
If major open-source projects were run by a core groups of people
who have been vetted by certification bodies and who ran the projects
using proven project-management methods and who employed standards
in merging and releasing submitted works, it would be easier to
promote them for general acceptance. The ad-hoc approach taken by
most of these doesn't lend itself to reasonable levels of confidence,
unless you expect every user to have the skill and time to analyze
the codebases of each program they employ and willy-nilly upgrade
on every patch or minor release.
In consumer devices this may be of little importance except when
considering lost productivity, but in communications infrastructure,
and areas impacting national product, security and competitiveness,
wouldn't you agree that software security and reliability should be
accorded more importance than it has to date? Closed or open-source,
isn't it about time that software that impacts vast areas of human
endeavor (such as MS Windows on PCs) should be required to pass
suites of security and vulnerability testing? I'm not one to support
governmental interference in most things, but there will be little
impetus to correct the huge problems plaguing the Internet until
MS is forced to fix its products to stop proliferations of distributed
malware that is choking effective use of e-mail and other services.
Can you even _imagine_ such a thing being permitted during the days
of regulated telecomm as what has happened to the 'net?
Regards,
Michael
Reply by David Brown●December 16, 20072007-12-16
Chris Hills wrote:
> In message <47645e74$0$3221$8404b019@news.wineasy.se>, David Brown
> <david.brown@hesbynett.removethisbit.no> writes
>>
>> Other than your knee-jerk reaction against anything open source,
>
> And yours in favour.....
>
All other things being equal, I prefer to use open source software
because I prefer the flexibility it gives me, and I prefer the open
development model for software running on a PC. But I'm not religious
about it - I'll use whatever software is most appropriate for the job.
So I don't have a problem with a compiler company making software for
Solaris, and I understand why they might only target Windows - my
question is whether there is any good reason for targeting Solaris and
not Linux as well.
>> do you have any actual *logic* for a company to support a Solaris tool
>> and not a Linux version? I'm quite happy to accept that Solaris is a
>> more mature system than Linux,
>
> Much more mature.
>
>> and I don't have any evidence to argue against it being more stable or
>> reliable.
>
> Yes.... It has vastly more time in critical applications. At one time
> most of the worlds telephone and Internet system ran on Solaris. I don't
> mean like Apache but the actual network infrastructure and switches.
> The MTBF was something like 20 years. We had that in 1995.
>
At one time, critical applications were run on serious hardware and
solid operating systems (Solaris was considered a cheap and cheerful
system - people used VMS and various IBM systems when they wanted top of
the range reliability). But the sort of Solaris people run on
workstations these days is not measurably more reliable than Linux -
they are both as stable as their users and the applications run on them.
Servers are a different matter, of course, since the applications are
much more controlled - both will be as stable and reliable as the
hardware they run on.
>> But there is no doubt that Linux is a lot more popular except in a few
>> *very* specialised areas - so good business sense suggests a company
>> makes products to run on the targets people use.
>
> This is incorrect. Linux is popular in SOME areas.
>
Linux is vastly more popular than Solaris in almost every area. That's
why Sun supports Linux as well as Solaris.
>> Or are you suggesting that companies like Altera, Xilinx, Metrowerks,
>> Green Hills, and Wind River (to take a few examples off the top of my
>> head) have all made bad business decisions by choosing to support
>> Linux hosts?
>
> Not at all. Very different business model.
>
There is a hefty overlap in these markets, is there not?
>> I'm inclined to accept CBFalconer's theory that Altium has bought an
>> existing toolchain and don't (yet) have the in-house expertise to
>> fully support, integrate and modernise it.
>
> I'm not, but then I know some of the people at Tasking.
>
Reply by Chris Hills●December 16, 20072007-12-16
In message <47645e74$0$3221$8404b019@news.wineasy.se>, David Brown
<david.brown@hesbynett.removethisbit.no> writes
>
>Other than your knee-jerk reaction against anything open source,
And yours in favour.....
> do you have any actual *logic* for a company to support a Solaris tool
>and not a Linux version? I'm quite happy to accept that Solaris is a
>more mature system than Linux,
Much more mature.
> and I don't have any evidence to argue against it being more stable or
>reliable.
Yes.... It has vastly more time in critical applications. At one time
most of the worlds telephone and Internet system ran on Solaris. I don't
mean like Apache but the actual network infrastructure and switches.
The MTBF was something like 20 years. We had that in 1995.
> But there is no doubt that Linux is a lot more popular except in a few
>*very* specialised areas - so good business sense suggests a company
>makes products to run on the targets people use.
This is incorrect. Linux is popular in SOME areas.
>Or are you suggesting that companies like Altera, Xilinx, Metrowerks,
>Green Hills, and Wind River (to take a few examples off the top of my
>head) have all made bad business decisions by choosing to support Linux
>hosts?
Not at all. Very different business model.
>I'm inclined to accept CBFalconer's theory that Altium has bought an
>existing toolchain and don't (yet) have the in-house expertise to fully
>support, integrate and modernise it.
I'm not, but then I know some of the people at Tasking.
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Reply by David Brown●December 15, 20072007-12-15
Chris Hills wrote:
> In message <47630911$0$3217$8404b019@news.wineasy.se>, David Brown
> <david.brown@hesbynett.removethisbit.no> writes
>> msg wrote:
>>> Grant Edwards wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>>> Better yet, send them a PO for an IA32 Linux version. When
>>>> somebody calls and tells you they have a Solaris version but
>>>> not a Linux version, thell them you saw that but thought they
>>>> were joking. It's about time they pulled their head out of the
>>>> sand and joined the rest of us in the 21st Century.
>>>>
>>> As a contented user of Solaris/SPARC, I am personally offended
>>> by such inflammatory comments. Linux is in many ways a new
>>> religion of a certain generation; as with all religions,
>>> intolerance can become a problem.
>>> I use Linux when it is appropriate to a specific application,
>>> but for robustness, reliability and canonical implementation,
>>> Solaris/SVR4 Unix is still a gold standard.
>>> Regards,
>>> Michael
>>
>> Regardless of the advantages of SPARC and/or Solaris (I haven't tried
>> either, so I can't comment), it is still absurd that a company would
>> support a compiler on Solaris/SPARC and not on Linux.
>
> Absolutely not. Which is probably why they haven't done it
>
Other than your knee-jerk reaction against anything open source, do you
have any actual *logic* for a company to support a Solaris tool and not
a Linux version? I'm quite happy to accept that Solaris is a more
mature system than Linux, and I don't have any evidence to argue against
it being more stable or reliable. But there is no doubt that Linux is a
lot more popular except in a few *very* specialised areas - so good
business sense suggests a company makes products to run on the targets
people use.
Or are you suggesting that companies like Altera, Xilinx, Metrowerks,
Green Hills, and Wind River (to take a few examples off the top of my
head) have all made bad business decisions by choosing to support Linux
hosts?
I'm inclined to accept CBFalconer's theory that Altium has bought an
existing toolchain and don't (yet) have the in-house expertise to fully
support, integrate and modernise it.