CBFalconer wrote:
> Jim Stewart wrote:
> 
>>Hans-Bernhard Broeker wrote:
>>
>>>Rene Tschaggelar <none@none.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>RG58 is good for at least 500V, spec'ed for 2.5kV operating.
>>>
>>>The cable may be.  But I hope you're aware that in a lot of
>>>countries, to go beyond around 48V, you'll need board-certified
>>>personnel to install any cable routinely carrying that kind of
>>>voltage, aren't you?
>>>
>>>Remember: legally, anything beyond about 48 volts is considered
>>>dangerous, experts-only "high voltage".  Anybody without formal
>>>certification ever having been allowed to fiddle with such a
>>>system is thus considered gross neglect of duties, and loses all
>>>insurance protection.
>>
>>Is that the case of amateur radio operators as well?  The RF
>>voltages in a typical amateur radio antenna lead could easily be
>>in the 100's of volts.
> 
> 
> And many hams have been killed or injured by their own rigs.
> 

Ground your rig before it grounds you.

Tauno Voipio (OH2UG, since early 60's)
tauno voipio (at) iki fi

"Paul E. Bennett" wrote:
> CBFalconer wrote:
> 
>> No, the first problem is to find out if the system has any chance
>> of working.  To illustrate, lets assume the cable is RG58U, 100
>> meters long, with a station every 10 meters requiring 12V at 1 Amp,
>> adding up to 10 Amps total.  Now I don't know that the ohms / meter
>> are for RG58U, but I seriously doubt that it can carry the net
>> current to deliver that power, and even if it does the ohmic drops
>> will be such that local regulators are needed, etc. etc.
> 
> Considering that working up a SPICE model of multiple nodes does
> not take that long to do, this would answer such questions quite
> rapidly. It would also allow exploring a number of options of
> ideal supply voltage and current.

To me this is ridiculous.  All you need is ohms law and an old
envelope to scratch out a preliminary feasibility study.  If things
are orders of magnitude out of whack, stop thinking about it.  If
there is are orders of magnitude of margin, go for it.  If it is
close, hire Paul Bennett to resolve it.

-- 
"If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
 the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article.  Click on 
 "show options" at the top of the article, then click on the 
 "Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith Thompson

Hans-Bernhard Broeker wrote:

> Rene Tschaggelar <none@none.net> wrote:
> 
>>RG58 is good for at least 500V, spec'ed for 2.5kV operating.
> 
> The cable may be.  But I hope you're aware that in a lot of countries,
> to go beyond around 48V, you'll need board-certified personnel to
> install any cable routinely carrying that kind of voltage, aren't you?
> 
> Remember: legally, anything beyond about 48 volts is considered
> dangerous, experts-only "high voltage".  Anybody without formal
> certification ever having been allowed to fiddle with such a system is
> thus considered gross neglect of duties, and loses all insurance
> protection.

Thanks for mentioning it, Hans-Bernhard.
It depends on the circumstances whether alternatives exist.
I know of more than one remotely operated submarine used
for inspection, that they use the coax for video, data and
power.

Rene
-- 
Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar - http://www.ibrtses.com
& commercial newsgroups - http://www.talkto.net

Jim Stewart wrote:

> Ian Bell wrote:
> 
>> Jim Stewart wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>>Hans-Bernhard Broeker wrote:
>>>
>>>>Rene Tschaggelar <none@none.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>RG58 is good for at least 500V, spec'ed for 2.5kV operating.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The cable may be.  But I hope you're aware that in a lot of countries,
>>>>to go beyond around 48V, you'll need board-certified personnel to
>>>>install any cable routinely carrying that kind of voltage, aren't you?
>>>>
>>>>Remember: legally, anything beyond about 48 volts is considered
>>>>dangerous, experts-only "high voltage".  Anybody without formal
>>>>certification ever having been allowed to fiddle with such a system is
>>>>thus considered gross neglect of duties, and loses all insurance
>>>>protection.
>>>
>>>Is that the case of amateur radio operators as
>>>well?  The RF voltages in a typical amateur radio
>>>antenna lead could easily be in the 100's of
>>>volts.
>> 
>> 
>> I think the legal situation appliesonly to products not persons.  if a
>> device uses voltages only below 48V (so called safety extra low) it makes
>> it easier for it to gain safety certification no matter what side of the
>> pond you are on.  Using higher voltages requires measures to ensure users
>> cannot be harmed by them before safety certification is granted - applies
>> to most all domestic mains operated appliances.
> 
> My question was a bit of a troll for Hans-Bernhard.
> The legal issues vary widely from place to place and
> I am curious how amateur radio operators deal with
> the regulations in Germany.
> 
> In my city, the saying is "you need a building permit
> to drive a nail".  OTOH, they are extremely helpful
> with homeowners that do the work themselves.  I drew
> up plans for a 240 volt, 50 ampere subpanel in my
> garage, had the chief building inspector sign off the
> drawing, did the work, got it inspected and signed off
> by the city for about $40 in fees.
> 
> The last city I lived in *required* all electrical work
> to be done by a licensed electrician.

Well with anything directly to do with domestic mains wiring, things are
about to change in the UK with the introduction of Part P of the IEE wiring
regs which require all such work to be done by a (licensed) qualified
person.

However, anything you do to something that just plugs into the mains is
still regulation free though not hazard free ;-)

Ian

-- 
Ian Bell

Hans-Bernhard Broeker wrote:

> Jim Stewart <jstewart@jkmicro.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>My question was a bit of a troll for Hans-Bernhard.
> 
> 
> OK, so now you've admitted as much, I'll bite.
> 
> 
>>The legal issues vary widely from place to place and I am curious
>>how amateur radio operators deal with the regulations in Germany.
> 
> 
> I'm not a HAM, but us Germans being who we are ;-), it's bound to be
> regulated by federal law just as strictly as electrical work is.
> IIRC, HAM licensing is handled by a federal institution here (our
> version of the FCC), and the exams before you get a license are pretty
> heavy.
> 
> Well, this is Germany after all, possibly the only country in the
> western world where the guilds still hold most of the same privileges
> they did in the year 1400.  E.g. some local chapters of the guild of
> electricians managed to sue computer/telekom system integrators out of
> business, because they did "electrical installation" (as in: they
> dared to lay network cables), but didn't have a guild "Meister" on
> their payroll, without which it's forbidden to run such a business.

I was stationed in Neu-Ulm in 1972, with the US
Army. Now that you mention it, I recall that even
on-base the power system had a very clear this-is-yours
/this-is-ours separation of what the tradespeople
handled and what we took care of.  I enjoyed several
pleasant days off while the local electricians took down
the power to do some "necessary" rewiring.

Between that and having worked several years with an old
immigrant German mechanical engineer, I've a fair
understanding of how your system works.

It may be a little inconvenient for engineering,
but it makes for fine beer (:

Jim Stewart <jstewart@jkmicro.com> wrote:

> My question was a bit of a troll for Hans-Bernhard.

OK, so now you've admitted as much, I'll bite.

> The legal issues vary widely from place to place and I am curious
> how amateur radio operators deal with the regulations in Germany.

I'm not a HAM, but us Germans being who we are ;-), it's bound to be
regulated by federal law just as strictly as electrical work is.
IIRC, HAM licensing is handled by a federal institution here (our
version of the FCC), and the exams before you get a license are pretty
heavy.

Well, this is Germany after all, possibly the only country in the
western world where the guilds still hold most of the same privileges
they did in the year 1400.  E.g. some local chapters of the guild of
electricians managed to sue computer/telekom system integrators out of
business, because they did "electrical installation" (as in: they
dared to lay network cables), but didn't have a guild "Meister" on
their payroll, without which it's forbidden to run such a business.

-- 
Hans-Bernhard Broeker (broeker@physik.rwth-aachen.de)
Even if all the snow were burnt, ashes would remain.

CBFalconer wrote:

> No, the first problem is to find out if the system has any chance
> of working.  To illustrate, lets assume the cable is RG58U, 100
> meters long, with a station every 10 meters requiring 12V at 1 Amp,
> adding up to 10 Amps total.  Now I don't know that the ohms / meter
> are for RG58U, but I seriously doubt that it can carry the net
> current to deliver that power, and even if it does the ohmic drops
> will be such that local regulators are needed, etc. etc.

Considering that working up a SPICE model of multiple nodes does not take 
that long to do, this would answer such questions quite rapidly. It would 
also allow exploring a number of options of ideal supply voltage and 
current.

-- 
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett ....................<email://peb@a...>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy .....<http://www.amleth.demon.co.uk/>
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972 .........NOW AVAILABLE:- HIDECS COURSE......
Tel: +44 (0)1235-811095 .... see http://www.feabhas.com for details.
Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
********************************************************************

Jim Stewart wrote:
> Hans-Bernhard Broeker wrote:
>> Rene Tschaggelar <none@none.net> wrote:
>>
>>> RG58 is good for at least 500V, spec'ed for 2.5kV operating.
>>
>> The cable may be.  But I hope you're aware that in a lot of
>> countries, to go beyond around 48V, you'll need board-certified
>> personnel to install any cable routinely carrying that kind of
>> voltage, aren't you?
>>
>> Remember: legally, anything beyond about 48 volts is considered
>> dangerous, experts-only "high voltage".  Anybody without formal
>> certification ever having been allowed to fiddle with such a
>> system is thus considered gross neglect of duties, and loses all
>> insurance protection.
> 
> Is that the case of amateur radio operators as well?  The RF
> voltages in a typical amateur radio antenna lead could easily be
> in the 100's of volts.

And many hams have been killed or injured by their own rigs.

-- 
"If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
 the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article.  Click on 
 "show options" at the top of the article, then click on the 
 "Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith Thompson

Ian Bell wrote:

> Jim Stewart wrote:
> 
> 
>>Hans-Bernhard Broeker wrote:
>>
>>>Rene Tschaggelar <none@none.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>RG58 is good for at least 500V, spec'ed for 2.5kV operating.
>>>
>>>
>>>The cable may be.  But I hope you're aware that in a lot of countries,
>>>to go beyond around 48V, you'll need board-certified personnel to
>>>install any cable routinely carrying that kind of voltage, aren't you?
>>>
>>>Remember: legally, anything beyond about 48 volts is considered
>>>dangerous, experts-only "high voltage".  Anybody without formal
>>>certification ever having been allowed to fiddle with such a system is
>>>thus considered gross neglect of duties, and loses all insurance
>>>protection.
>>
>>Is that the case of amateur radio operators as
>>well?  The RF voltages in a typical amateur radio
>>antenna lead could easily be in the 100's of
>>volts.
> 
> 
> I think the legal situation appliesonly to products not persons.  if a
> device uses voltages only below 48V (so called safety extra low) it makes
> it easier for it to gain safety certification no matter what side of the
> pond you are on.  Using higher voltages requires measures to ensure users
> cannot be harmed by them before safety certification is granted - applies
> to most all domestic mains operated appliances.

My question was a bit of a troll for Hans-Bernhard.
The legal issues vary widely from place to place and
I am curious how amateur radio operators deal with
the regulations in Germany.

In my city, the saying is "you need a building permit
to drive a nail".  OTOH, they are extremely helpful
with homeowners that do the work themselves.  I drew
up plans for a 240 volt, 50 ampere subpanel in my
garage, had the chief building inspector sign off the
drawing, did the work, got it inspected and signed off
by the city for about $40 in fees.

The last city I lived in *required* all electrical work
to be done by a licensed electrician.

Jim Stewart wrote:

> Hans-Bernhard Broeker wrote:
>> Rene Tschaggelar <none@none.net> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>>RG58 is good for at least 500V, spec'ed for 2.5kV operating.
>> 
>> 
>> The cable may be.  But I hope you're aware that in a lot of countries,
>> to go beyond around 48V, you'll need board-certified personnel to
>> install any cable routinely carrying that kind of voltage, aren't you?
>> 
>> Remember: legally, anything beyond about 48 volts is considered
>> dangerous, experts-only "high voltage".  Anybody without formal
>> certification ever having been allowed to fiddle with such a system is
>> thus considered gross neglect of duties, and loses all insurance
>> protection.
> 
> Is that the case of amateur radio operators as
> well?  The RF voltages in a typical amateur radio
> antenna lead could easily be in the 100's of
> volts.

I think the legal situation appliesonly to products not persons.  if a
device uses voltages only below 48V (so called safety extra low) it makes
it easier for it to gain safety certification no matter what side of the
pond you are on.  Using higher voltages requires measures to ensure users
cannot be harmed by them before safety certification is granted - applies
to most all domestic mains operated appliances.

None of this applies to anything you make yourself at home.

Ian
-- 
Ian Bell