Reply by larwe February 26, 20082008-02-26
On Feb 25, 11:06 pm, amerdsp <amer...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I agree the antenna is very important. What I was asking is that > perhaps the CC2500 is not meant to have long range transmission. You > can use the best antenna out there, but if you do not have the power
I haven't looked at the CC2500 but I assume it puts out at least 0dBm. If you want more power, you need to add a PA. If you don't have the expertise and equipment (got a 2.5GHz spectrum analyzer?) it is very difficult - quasi-impossible - to experiment with this stuff and you are really much better served by buying a module with a pre-matched antenna. Bluetooth, maybe.
Reply by Paul Keinanen February 26, 20082008-02-26
On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 13:21:26 +0900, Ray Haddad
<rhaddad@iexpress.net.au> wrote:

>On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 20:06:21 -0800 (PST), I said, "Pick a card, any >card" and amerdsp <amerdsp@hotmail.com> instead replied:
>>The kit is marketed as a development kit not a demo board. Since this >>kit is meant to advertise the best in the CC2500 chip, I assumed they >>would put a decent antenna to stand out from the crowd. > >Nonsense. It's made to test in lab conditions not in the field. You >want field performance, buy a working, off the shelf model of >something already designed. > >>> Your application requires distance, this board was not designed for >>> distance. >>> >>> As has been suggested, an antenna will help. >> >>I agree the antenna is very important. What I was asking is that >>perhaps the CC2500 is not meant to have long range transmission. You >>can use the best antenna out there, but if you do not have the power >>to drive it nothing is going to happen. > >There are high gain antennae available. I gave you links to places >where you can actually build your own. A small stub antenna may have >a gain of 2db to 5db while a dish or bowtie will exceed 16db. >That'll put you into the 100 meter range with just .5mw or less >depending on other conditions.
Antennas with "gain" have also directivity so this is mainly usable with stationary nodes in more or less line of sight conditions. In a stationary system, the sensors could use directional antennas, but the master would have to use an nondirectional antenna if the sensors are not in the same general direction (or use switchable directional antennas and switch in the correct antenna, when accessing a specific sensor). However, if the nodes are stationary, why use wireless connections in the first place, what prevents the use of wires ? In applications, in which the communication path is through reflections or in which the nodes might be movable or reflecting/absorbing surfaces (such as humans) will move in and out of the communication path, the directional antenna can do more harm. In such situations, antennas with more than 3-6 dBi gain (illuminating less than half of an hemisphere) should be avoided, in order to be able to use the best reflection at a particular moment. If the evaluation board simply relies that a suitable PCB track may radiate something, but may be quite lossy, with gains in the order of -6 to -20 dB, so even a simple 1/4 wave external antenna would improve the distance considerably. It should be noted that when using license free frequency bands, the device may have sufficient range in an interference free test setup, but in the actual world with various kind of interference from various sources, the range could be drastically reduced. Paul
Reply by Ray Haddad February 26, 20082008-02-26
On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 20:06:21 -0800 (PST), I said, "Pick a card, any
card" and amerdsp <amerdsp@hotmail.com> instead replied:

>On Feb 25, 5:02 pm, donald <Don...@dontdoithere.com> wrote: >> amerdsp wrote: >> > On Feb 25, 2:54 pm, donald <Don...@dontdoithere.com> wrote: >> >> >> Did you design your hardware or just copied what was easy. >> >> >> You need to design your own hardware to get the distance you want. >> >> > I am planning to design my own but for now I just ran the demo that >> > came with the CC2500 chip. Thats when I ran into the distance/range >> > problem. >> >> Your not understanding whats going on here. >> >> This is not a problem. >> >> The board you tested was not designed for your application. >> >> It was designed as a demo. > >The kit is marketed as a development kit not a demo board. Since this >kit is meant to advertise the best in the CC2500 chip, I assumed they >would put a decent antenna to stand out from the crowd.
Nonsense. It's made to test in lab conditions not in the field. You want field performance, buy a working, off the shelf model of something already designed.
>> Your application requires distance, this board was not designed for >> distance. >> >> As has been suggested, an antenna will help. > >I agree the antenna is very important. What I was asking is that >perhaps the CC2500 is not meant to have long range transmission. You >can use the best antenna out there, but if you do not have the power >to drive it nothing is going to happen.
There are high gain antennae available. I gave you links to places where you can actually build your own. A small stub antenna may have a gain of 2db to 5db while a dish or bowtie will exceed 16db. That'll put you into the 100 meter range with just .5mw or less depending on other conditions.
>> But YOU need to design it for the application, > >Yes, indeed. Thats what I am planning to do but not before I know >that the hardware I am using is able to get the ranges I want. > >As I said, RF is not my strength and I thank you for your input.
Then get someone who is good with RF to design your weakest link. It's not that hard to learn. In another post, I gave you links to lots of help. Go there and read. Those guys wrote for the amateur. Why did you come here to ignore the only advice that will help you out? You can ask further questions about antenna design. While most here are digital guys there are a few with more well rounded expertise. No harm in asking unless, like you did here, you choose to dismiss it as too hard. More power is not the answer. It may even be illegal where you live. -- Ray
Reply by amerdsp February 26, 20082008-02-26
On Feb 25, 5:02 pm, donald <Don...@dontdoithere.com> wrote:
> amerdsp wrote: > > On Feb 25, 2:54 pm, donald <Don...@dontdoithere.com> wrote: > > >> Did you design your hardware or just copied what was easy. > > >> You need to design your own hardware to get the distance you want. > > > I am planning to design my own but for now I just ran the demo that > > came with the CC2500 chip. Thats when I ran into the distance/range > > problem. > > Your not understanding whats going on here. > > This is not a problem. > > The board you tested was not designed for your application. > > It was designed as a demo.
The kit is marketed as a development kit not a demo board. Since this kit is meant to advertise the best in the CC2500 chip, I assumed they would put a decent antenna to stand out from the crowd.
> > Your application requires distance, this board was not designed for > distance. > > As has been suggested, an antenna will help.
I agree the antenna is very important. What I was asking is that perhaps the CC2500 is not meant to have long range transmission. You can use the best antenna out there, but if you do not have the power to drive it nothing is going to happen.
> > But YOU need to design it for the application,
Yes, indeed. Thats what I am planning to do but not before I know that the hardware I am using is able to get the ranges I want. As I said, RF is not my strength and I thank you for your input.
> > Or you could just buy an off-the-shelf unit that matches your requirements. > > donald > > I was just trying to get a feel to what I can or cannot use. > > > What should I look for when I am design? Any ideas? > > > Thank you,
Reply by donald February 25, 20082008-02-25
amerdsp wrote:
> On Feb 25, 2:54 pm, donald <Don...@dontdoithere.com> wrote: > >> Did you design your hardware or just copied what was easy. >> >> You need to design your own hardware to get the distance you want. > > I am planning to design my own but for now I just ran the demo that > came with the CC2500 chip. Thats when I ran into the distance/range > problem.
Your not understanding whats going on here. This is not a problem. The board you tested was not designed for your application. It was designed as a demo. Your application requires distance, this board was not designed for distance. As has been suggested, an antenna will help. But YOU need to design it for the application, Or you could just buy an off-the-shelf unit that matches your requirements. donald I was just trying to get a feel to what I can or cannot use.
> What should I look for when I am design? Any ideas? > > Thank you, >
Reply by Martin Griffith February 25, 20082008-02-25
On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 13:41:07 -0800 (PST), in comp.arch.embedded
amerdsp <amerdsp@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Feb 25, 2:54 pm, donald <Don...@dontdoithere.com> wrote: > >> Did you design your hardware or just copied what was easy. >> >> You need to design your own hardware to get the distance you want. > >I am planning to design my own but for now I just ran the demo that >came with the CC2500 chip. Thats when I ran into the distance/range >problem. I was just trying to get a feel to what I can or cannot use. >What should I look for when I am design? Any ideas? > >Thank you,
I'd look at the antenna design. A good antenna system can make a lot of difference martin
Reply by Ray Haddad February 25, 20082008-02-25
On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 09:02:35 -0800 (PST), I said, "Pick a card, any
card" and amerdsp <amerdsp@hotmail.com> instead replied:

> I am trying to build a wireless sensor controller where the sensors >are distributed and a central device is able to read the status of >every node. My knowledge about wireless networks is novice at best. >I was looking into zigbee and then got hold of TI's CC2500 development >tool. I ran the demo but the distance from the sensor to the pc was >too short for my application. I was able to go less than 15 feet >(indoors) before I lost connection. I was practically still in the >same room except that there was an end table in the line of sight >between the receiver and transmitter. Is this something typical of >these devices? I am looking for something in the range of 20-30m >indoors.
That really shouldn't be a problem with the right antenna. An 802.11G network has a practical range of about 30 meters with a stock antenna from the box. Use a high gain, unidirectional antenna and some people have gotten as much as 20km with full duplex. Go here: http://www.wafreenet.org They have several "how to" projects there; all free. They've been playing around with wireless in a big way for years now. There are both unidirectional and omnidirectional antennae there for you to experiment with. The Bow Tie, bi-quad antenna might suit your needs. http://martybugs.net/wireless/biquad/ Have fun. -- Ray
Reply by amerdsp February 25, 20082008-02-25
On Feb 25, 2:54 pm, donald <Don...@dontdoithere.com> wrote:

> Did you design your hardware or just copied what was easy. > > You need to design your own hardware to get the distance you want.
I am planning to design my own but for now I just ran the demo that came with the CC2500 chip. Thats when I ran into the distance/range problem. I was just trying to get a feel to what I can or cannot use. What should I look for when I am design? Any ideas? Thank you,
Reply by donald February 25, 20082008-02-25
amerdsp wrote:
> Hello, > I am trying to build a wireless sensor controller where the sensors > are distributed and a central device is able to read the status of > every node. My knowledge about wireless networks is novice at best. > I was looking into zigbee and then got hold of TI's CC2500 development > tool. I ran the demo but the distance from the sensor to the pc was > too short for my application. I was able to go less than 15 feet
Did you design your hardware or just copied what was easy. You need to design your own hardware to get the distance you want. good luck donald
> (indoors) before I lost connection. I was practically still in the > same room except that there was an end table in the line of sight > between the receiver and transmitter. Is this something typical of > these devices? I am looking for something in the range of 20-30m > indoors. > > Any hints or ideas? > > Thank you, > > A
Reply by Mike Silva February 25, 20082008-02-25
On Feb 25, 12:12=A0pm, karthikbalaguru <karthikbalagur...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> > Checkout Chipcon website.
Which is now owned by TI.