On Apr 8, 5:19 pm, panfilero <panfil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 8, 3:31 pm, cs_post...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Apr 8, 3:55 pm, panfilero <panfil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Yes I'd like to look at failure rates, see which bits aren't flipping,
> > > implement an ECC, be able to test with different checkboard patterns
> > > and things like this.... I'm looking for some kind of test board where
> > > I could put different Flash packages to be tested....
>
> > Depending on the sophistication of the IC, there may be substantial
> > smarts in between the external interface and the actual memory cells
> > which may get in the way of your tests.
>
> > Also, if you are testing to failure you may need a fast interface, or
> > be prepared to
> > wait a long, long time.
>
> Right, I was thinking that I would have to use a mocrocontroller and
> expand its memory, to inlcude the flash and then I could apply my test
> and verify bits and try out an ECC algorithm.... I've been told FPGAs
> could also be used, and would be favorable... but I have no experience
> with FPGA.... if I go the microcontroller route I would need some kind
> of interface woudln't I?  A memory Flash controller or something?

First of all, you should look at a Flash chip datasheet. Learn the
interface. Look at the timing. You'll have to do the low-level control
yourself if you want access to the bits, and it's really not as
complicated as your hesitation suggests it is. Just read the datasheet.

On Apr 8, 5:19 pm, panfilero <panfil...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Right, I was thinking that I would have to use a mocrocontroller and
> expand its memory, to inlcude the flash and then I could apply my test
> and verify bits and try out an ECC algorithm.... I've been told FPGAs
> could also be used, and would be favorable... but I have no experience
> with FPGA.... if I go the microcontroller route I would need some kind
> of interface woudln't I?  A memory Flash controller or something?

The easy way is to find a microcontroller (or I/O expander) that gives
you enough
pins, and then talk the flash device's protocol in software.  However,
that's likely
to be too slow if you expect to wear out a device in less than
calendar time.

To go faster you  may need some dedicated flash interface logic,
either purchased or
built into an FPGA.  The FPGA route can be fairly painful, because
interfacing it
to a higher level test controller isn't necessary easy, but it is
doable.

On Apr 8, 3:31 pm, cs_post...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Apr 8, 3:55 pm, panfilero <panfil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Yes I'd like to look at failure rates, see which bits aren't flipping,
> > implement an ECC, be able to test with different checkboard patterns
> > and things like this.... I'm looking for some kind of test board where
> > I could put different Flash packages to be tested....
>
> Depending on the sophistication of the IC, there may be substantial
> smarts in between the external interface and the actual memory cells
> which may get in the way of your tests.
>
> Also, if you are testing to failure you may need a fast interface, or
> be prepared to
> wait a long, long time.

Right, I was thinking that I would have to use a mocrocontroller and
expand its memory, to inlcude the flash and then I could apply my test
and verify bits and try out an ECC algorithm.... I've been told FPGAs
could also be used, and would be favorable... but I have no experience
with FPGA.... if I go the microcontroller route I would need some kind
of interface woudln't I?  A memory Flash controller or something?

On Apr 8, 3:55 pm, panfilero <panfil...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes I'd like to look at failure rates, see which bits aren't flipping,
> implement an ECC, be able to test with different checkboard patterns
> and things like this.... I'm looking for some kind of test board where
> I could put different Flash packages to be tested....

Depending on the sophistication of the IC, there may be substantial
smarts in between the external interface and the actual memory cells
which may get in the way of your tests.

Also, if you are testing to failure you may need a fast interface, or
be prepared to
wait a long, long time.

On Apr 3, 5:07 pm, mng <michael.jh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 3, 12:16 pm, panfilero <panfil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 3, 1:07 pm, mike <spam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > panfilero wrote:
> > > > I am purchasing a Nand-Flash memory chip.... just stand alone only
> > > > flash... not a microcontroller or anything.  I was wondering if anyone
> > > > knew of any interfaces or test boards (maybe they are called flash
> > > > controllers? I'm not sure) that I could use to test the memory...
> > > > basically I will write a little code to read and write, and then check
> > > > that the memory is ok.  So far I have found this:
> > > >http://download.micron.com/pdf/technotes/nand/tn2905.pdfwhichseems
> > > > about right, except that I would prefer to have an ethernet output
> > > > instead of rs-232.  Does anyone know of any other boards like this? Or
> > > > if there is a way to convert RS232 to Ethernet?
>
> > > > Thanks
>
> > > None of my business, but WHY do you need to test it?  It's a rhetorical
> > > question...
>
> > > "a" chip? like quantity one?
> > > And if you test it according to vendor specs, how do you expect to get
> > > anything other than the vendor results?
>
> > > Test it in the (mis)application.  Your results are likely to be affected
> > > more by your wear leveling algorithms, noise, timing margins, etc. than
> > > anything the vendor did.
>
> > > While you can easily come up with many counter-examples, the majority of
> > > vendor parts meet vendor specs when used in conforming environments.
>
> > > Ethernet is a horribly complex way to go to test one chip...or any
> > > number of chips for that matter.  USB to RS232 is a lot easier.
>
> > > You can buy a USB interface with drivers and everything for dirt cheap.
> > > Comes with the flash aready installed.
> > > Called a thumb drive.
>
> > > And if you're really talking about vendor qualification to buy zillions
> > > of 'em,
> > > the problem is a LOT more complex than you appear to understand.
> > > mike
>
> > > --
> > > Return address is VALID!
>
> > Well... I just want to test a few, it's for research... I might test
> > maybe 10 ICs total.  I'm planing on buying several Flash ICs from
> > digikey they come in TSOP packages I'll probally get 48pin
> > packages.... so, what I'm looking for (and having a hard time finding)
> > is something I can plug a Flash IC into and read and write to the IC.
> > And I can probally program a microcontroller or something at this
> > point to carry out my testing algorithm.... (I hear FPGA might be good
> > for this but I'm not familiar with FPGAs).... I'm guessing I need some
> > kind of memory controller (I don't know anything about memory
> > controllers) if I try to build this myself... I just want a way to
> > read and write and perform some error code correction to an individual
> > Flash IC.
>
> > Thanks
>
> The protocol for accessing Flash is pretty straightforward. Just take
> a look at the datasheet. I've done a simple storage board using a PIC.
> Writes to Flash are pretty slow, so speed is not so much an issue.
>
> But what exactly are you trying to test? Block failure rates?

Yes I'd like to look at failure rates, see which bits aren't flipping,
implement an ECC, be able to test with different checkboard patterns
and things like this.... I'm looking for some kind of test board where
I could put different Flash packages to be tested....

On Apr 3, 2:38 pm, Bob <SkiBoy...@excite.com> wrote:
> panfilero wrote:
> > On Apr 3, 1:07 pm, mike <spam...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> panfilero wrote:
> >>> I am purchasing a Nand-Flash memory chip.... just stand alone only
> >>> flash... not a microcontroller or anything.  I was wondering if anyone
> >>> knew of any interfaces or test boards (maybe they are called flash
> >>> controllers? I'm not sure) that I could use to test the memory...
> >>> basically I will write a little code to read and write, and then check
> >>> that the memory is ok.  So far I have found this:
> >>>http://download.micron.com/pdf/technotes/nand/tn2905.pdfwhich seems
> >>> about right, except that I would prefer to have an ethernet output
> >>> instead of rs-232.  Does anyone know of any other boards like this? Or
> >>> if there is a way to convert RS232 to Ethernet?
> >>> Thanks
> >> None of my business, but WHY do you need to test it?  It's a rhetorical
> >> question...
>
> >> "a" chip? like quantity one?
> >> And if you test it according to vendor specs, how do you expect to get
> >> anything other than the vendor results?
>
> >> Test it in the (mis)application.  Your results are likely to be affected
> >> more by your wear leveling algorithms, noise, timing margins, etc. than
> >> anything the vendor did.
>
> >> While you can easily come up with many counter-examples, the majority of
> >> vendor parts meet vendor specs when used in conforming environments.
>
> >> Ethernet is a horribly complex way to go to test one chip...or any
> >> number of chips for that matter.  USB to RS232 is a lot easier.
>
> >> You can buy a USB interface with drivers and everything for dirt cheap.
> >> Comes with the flash aready installed.
> >> Called a thumb drive.
>
> >> And if you're really talking about vendor qualification to buy zillions
> >> of 'em,
> >> the problem is a LOT more complex than you appear to understand.
> >> mike
>
> >> --
> >> Return address is VALID!
>
> > Well... I just want to test a few, it's for research... I might test
> > maybe 10 ICs total.  I'm planing on buying several Flash ICs from
> > digikey they come in TSOP packages I'll probally get 48pin
> > packages.... so, what I'm looking for (and having a hard time finding)
> > is something I can plug a Flash IC into and read and write to the IC.
> > And I can probally program a microcontroller or something at this
> > point to carry out my testing algorithm.... (I hear FPGA might be good
> > for this but I'm not familiar with FPGAs).... I'm guessing I need some
> > kind of memory controller (I don't know anything about memory
> > controllers) if I try to build this myself... I just want a way to
> > read and write and perform some error code correction to an individual
> > Flash IC.
>
> > Thanks
>
> how about a flash programmer? We use a Needhams EMP-20. Program it;
> erase it; program it; erase it. The programmer checks for failed bits.
> Bob

This sounds interesting, I can't find any documentation about it
though.

On Apr 3, 12:16 pm, panfilero <panfil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 3, 1:07 pm, mike <spam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > panfilero wrote:
> > > I am purchasing a Nand-Flash memory chip.... just stand alone only
> > > flash... not a microcontroller or anything.  I was wondering if anyone
> > > knew of any interfaces or test boards (maybe they are called flash
> > > controllers? I'm not sure) that I could use to test the memory...
> > > basically I will write a little code to read and write, and then check
> > > that the memory is ok.  So far I have found this:
> > >http://download.micron.com/pdf/technotes/nand/tn2905.pdfwhich seems
> > > about right, except that I would prefer to have an ethernet output
> > > instead of rs-232.  Does anyone know of any other boards like this? Or
> > > if there is a way to convert RS232 to Ethernet?
>
> > > Thanks
>
> > None of my business, but WHY do you need to test it?  It's a rhetorical
> > question...
>
> > "a" chip? like quantity one?
> > And if you test it according to vendor specs, how do you expect to get
> > anything other than the vendor results?
>
> > Test it in the (mis)application.  Your results are likely to be affected
> > more by your wear leveling algorithms, noise, timing margins, etc. than
> > anything the vendor did.
>
> > While you can easily come up with many counter-examples, the majority of
> > vendor parts meet vendor specs when used in conforming environments.
>
> > Ethernet is a horribly complex way to go to test one chip...or any
> > number of chips for that matter.  USB to RS232 is a lot easier.
>
> > You can buy a USB interface with drivers and everything for dirt cheap.
> > Comes with the flash aready installed.
> > Called a thumb drive.
>
> > And if you're really talking about vendor qualification to buy zillions
> > of 'em,
> > the problem is a LOT more complex than you appear to understand.
> > mike
>
> > --
> > Return address is VALID!
>
> Well... I just want to test a few, it's for research... I might test
> maybe 10 ICs total.  I'm planing on buying several Flash ICs from
> digikey they come in TSOP packages I'll probally get 48pin
> packages.... so, what I'm looking for (and having a hard time finding)
> is something I can plug a Flash IC into and read and write to the IC.
> And I can probally program a microcontroller or something at this
> point to carry out my testing algorithm.... (I hear FPGA might be good
> for this but I'm not familiar with FPGAs).... I'm guessing I need some
> kind of memory controller (I don't know anything about memory
> controllers) if I try to build this myself... I just want a way to
> read and write and perform some error code correction to an individual
> Flash IC.
>
> Thanks

The protocol for accessing Flash is pretty straightforward. Just take
a look at the datasheet. I've done a simple storage board using a PIC.
Writes to Flash are pretty slow, so speed is not so much an issue.

But what exactly are you trying to test? Block failure rates?

panfilero wrote:
> On Apr 3, 1:07 pm, mike <spam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> panfilero wrote:
>>> I am purchasing a Nand-Flash memory chip.... just stand alone only
>>> flash... not a microcontroller or anything.  I was wondering if anyone
>>> knew of any interfaces or test boards (maybe they are called flash
>>> controllers? I'm not sure) that I could use to test the memory...
>>> basically I will write a little code to read and write, and then check
>>> that the memory is ok.  So far I have found this:
>>> http://download.micron.com/pdf/technotes/nand/tn2905.pdf which seems
>>> about right, except that I would prefer to have an ethernet output
>>> instead of rs-232.  Does anyone know of any other boards like this? Or
>>> if there is a way to convert RS232 to Ethernet?
>>> Thanks
>> None of my business, but WHY do you need to test it?  It's a rhetorical
>> question...
>>
>> "a" chip? like quantity one?
>> And if you test it according to vendor specs, how do you expect to get
>> anything other than the vendor results?
>>
>> Test it in the (mis)application.  Your results are likely to be affected
>> more by your wear leveling algorithms, noise, timing margins, etc. than
>> anything the vendor did.
>>
>> While you can easily come up with many counter-examples, the majority of
>> vendor parts meet vendor specs when used in conforming environments.
>>
>> Ethernet is a horribly complex way to go to test one chip...or any
>> number of chips for that matter.  USB to RS232 is a lot easier.
>>
>> You can buy a USB interface with drivers and everything for dirt cheap.
>> Comes with the flash aready installed.
>> Called a thumb drive.
>>
>> And if you're really talking about vendor qualification to buy zillions
>> of 'em,
>> the problem is a LOT more complex than you appear to understand.
>> mike
>>
>> --
>> Return address is VALID!
> 
> Well... I just want to test a few, it's for research... I might test
> maybe 10 ICs total.  I'm planing on buying several Flash ICs from
> digikey they come in TSOP packages I'll probally get 48pin
> packages.... so, what I'm looking for (and having a hard time finding)
> is something I can plug a Flash IC into and read and write to the IC.
> And I can probally program a microcontroller or something at this
> point to carry out my testing algorithm.... (I hear FPGA might be good
> for this but I'm not familiar with FPGAs).... I'm guessing I need some
> kind of memory controller (I don't know anything about memory
> controllers) if I try to build this myself... I just want a way to
> read and write and perform some error code correction to an individual
> Flash IC.
> 
> Thanks
how about a flash programmer? We use a Needhams EMP-20. Program it; 
erase it; program it; erase it. The programmer checks for failed bits.
Bob

On Apr 3, 1:07 pm, mike <spam...@gmail.com> wrote:
> panfilero wrote:
> > I am purchasing a Nand-Flash memory chip.... just stand alone only
> > flash... not a microcontroller or anything.  I was wondering if anyone
> > knew of any interfaces or test boards (maybe they are called flash
> > controllers? I'm not sure) that I could use to test the memory...
> > basically I will write a little code to read and write, and then check
> > that the memory is ok.  So far I have found this:
> >http://download.micron.com/pdf/technotes/nand/tn2905.pdf which seems
> > about right, except that I would prefer to have an ethernet output
> > instead of rs-232.  Does anyone know of any other boards like this? Or
> > if there is a way to convert RS232 to Ethernet?
>
> > Thanks
>
> None of my business, but WHY do you need to test it?  It's a rhetorical
> question...
>
> "a" chip? like quantity one?
> And if you test it according to vendor specs, how do you expect to get
> anything other than the vendor results?
>
> Test it in the (mis)application.  Your results are likely to be affected
> more by your wear leveling algorithms, noise, timing margins, etc. than
> anything the vendor did.
>
> While you can easily come up with many counter-examples, the majority of
> vendor parts meet vendor specs when used in conforming environments.
>
> Ethernet is a horribly complex way to go to test one chip...or any
> number of chips for that matter.  USB to RS232 is a lot easier.
>
> You can buy a USB interface with drivers and everything for dirt cheap.
> Comes with the flash aready installed.
> Called a thumb drive.
>
> And if you're really talking about vendor qualification to buy zillions
> of 'em,
> the problem is a LOT more complex than you appear to understand.
> mike
>
> --
> Return address is VALID!

Well... I just want to test a few, it's for research... I might test
maybe 10 ICs total.  I'm planing on buying several Flash ICs from
digikey they come in TSOP packages I'll probally get 48pin
packages.... so, what I'm looking for (and having a hard time finding)
is something I can plug a Flash IC into and read and write to the IC.
And I can probally program a microcontroller or something at this
point to carry out my testing algorithm.... (I hear FPGA might be good
for this but I'm not familiar with FPGAs).... I'm guessing I need some
kind of memory controller (I don't know anything about memory
controllers) if I try to build this myself... I just want a way to
read and write and perform some error code correction to an individual
Flash IC.

Thanks

mike wrote:

> 
> Test it in the (mis)application.  .........

ROFLOL!!!!