Both the MC9S12DP256 and the 68HC58 datasheets talk about the output to the
J1850-VPW bus.
What about the J1850PWM bus. My guess is that it is just a matter of
physical interface between the selected controller and the bus, right?
Also, very little information may be found about the actual physical
interface that is recommended to the J1850PWM bus. The SAE spec itself only
discuss the timing issues and does not propose a recommended connection to
the bus. I would appreciate your input to this matter?
I have also found another controller, from OKI semiconductors, the MSM6636?
How would you rate this controller compared to the 68HC58?
thanks
_____
From: 6... [mailto:6...] On Behalf Of
Kerry Berland
Sent: February 3, 2006 7:37 PM
To: 6...
Subject: RE: [68HC12] Experience with J1850 and ISO9141
Agree with Rob Milne that a 68HC58 might be easier to work with. If
you're
building a gateway
between a car and a PC, serving as a diagnostic tool, that might be a good
way to go. I mistakenly
assumed the task involved designing an actual control module that goes into
a car, and for a
high-volume product, the reduced cost of an integrated solution makes the
software headaches
worthwhile. And also for a Class 2 ECU, one must deal with all the
complications of the upper layers
of Class 2.
As for the "XC" versus "MC"-I think you'll find that even if the
documentation you have says "MC,"
you can only buy an "XC" from Freescale. Check the Freescale website. My
understanding is that this
device does not meet Freescale "MC" specs. Support is limited from Freescale
as to the 68HC58..I
don't think they really encourage people to use it for new
designs..There's
a reason why they don't
put the data sheet on their website. However it wouldn't hurt to check
this
for yourself personally
by contacting a Freescale FAE knowledgeable about their automotive chips.
Hope this is helpful, not trying to be argumentative..
Best regards,
Kerry Berland
k...@siliconengines.net
Silicon Engines
3550 West Salt Creek Lane
Suite 105
Arlington Heights, IL 60005 USA
Phone 847-637-1180 Ext. 223
Fax 847-637-1185
www.siliconengines.net
-----Original Message-----
From: 6... [mailto:6...] On Behalf Of
Rob Milne
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 5:12 PM
To: 6...
Subject: Re: [68HC12] Experience with J1850 and ISO9141
I don't know the nature of your 'tool', but some automotive bus
gateways
(like one I've coded) don't require much knowledge of the upper OSI
layers. Data link layer is about all you need. Packetizing and
interpreting the data is left to a PC program. Other than implementing
some type of message filter, the most work required is designing a
real-time eventdriven architecture. I haven't actually written a driver
for the MC86HC58 (thats how it is referred to by my pdf), but the
document indicates it to be a much preferable solution - I hate the bdlc
implementation - flakey unless HPRIO used and/or no possibility of other
interrupts interfering (ie: SCI). It may be cheap but it sure as hell
stinks. There was no document on how to implement on S12 - I had to
infer from references to similar chips and many painful iterations (I
pity my poor beta testing client). I talked to a Freescale engineer and
it helped a little. I can't be more specific (NDA).
rob
Jean-Sebastien Bouchard wrote:
> We have access to full class 2 specification. This is
not a problem.
> It is only that right now, we use a third party solution to connect to
older
> bus which are not CAN, i.e. J1850, ISO9141, etc
> We would like to get rid of this tool and our customer will keep asking
for
> connectivity to these bus as long as there are
vehicles on the road which
> uses them. So we will need to support these bus for a few years.
>
> I have been looking for information on the XC68HC58, but the Freescale
> website does not provide the datasheet for this chip...
> _____
>
> From: 6... [mailto:6...] On Behalf Of
> Kerry Berland
> Sent: February 3, 2006 3:36 PM
> To: 6...
> Subject: RE: [68HC12] Experience with J1850 and ISO9141
> I don't think it's too easy to find source code for either J1850
or
> ISO9141--so far as I know there
> is very little freeware available in the automotive market.
>
> We've done automotive products using J1850 and I think you'll find
that
> about 5% of the information
> you'll need is freely available (J1850 and related standards on the
SAE
> website), and the other 95%
> is contained in Class 2 specifications proprietary to GM that were
> originated either by GM, or
> Ascent Corporation under contract to GM. Do you have access to Class 2
> specifications?
>
> I'm not sure what Rob Milne means about "native J1850"--it's true
that the
> XC68HC58 handles more of
> the low-level layers than the BDLC cell in integrated microcontrollers,
> putting more of a burden on
> the MCU, but the BDLC approach is more cost-effective. Both approaches
> require quite an astonishing
> lot of firmware to handle the upper layers of the Class 2 protocol...If
you
> have access to the Class
> 2 specifications you'll know what is meant by this...
>
> The XC68HC58 has its own quirks and errata, as may be indicated by the
fact
> that after many years
> Freescale still shows it as an "XC" because it doesn't fully pass
Freescale
> "MC" requirements.
> Nevertheless this part is still in production. But this part is listed as
> PRODUCT MATURITY, so be
> careful if this is a new design that needs to last for a long time. (In
fact
> J1850 itself is tending
> to be phased out in favor of CAN.)
>
> You can learn a lot about ISO-9141, ISO-14230, and KWP 2000 from the
> applicable ISO specifications.
> However there is usually a lot of vehicle-specific information that you
> would also need to know.
> Silicon Engines makes low-cost tools that connect a PC to ISO-9141 or
> ISO-14230 and maybe they can
> help in development.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Kerry Berland
> k...@siliconengines.net
> Silicon Engines
> 3550 West Salt Creek Lane
> Suite 105
> Arlington Heights, IL 60005 USA
> Phone 847-637-1180 Ext. 223
> Fax 847-637-1185
> www.siliconengines.net
>
> NOTE: email address, office address, phones,
> and website address changed 9/1/05,
> please update your records.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: 6... [mailto:6...] On Behalf Of
> Rob Milne
> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 11:05 PM
> To: 6...
> Subject: Re: [68HC12] Experience with J1850 and ISO9141
>
> Pardon me for misspelling your name Jean-Sebastien.
>
> rob
>
> Rob Milne wrote:
> > Hi Sebastien,
> >
> > The XDP cannot talk native J1850. The DP256 has the on chip bdlc
module
> > but I don't recommend it too highly because
the state machine runs in
> > the program code rather than co-pro hardware. Check out the XC68HC58.
> >
> > rob
> >
> > Jean-Sebastien Bouchard wrote:
> > > I would like to connect the MC9S12XDP512 device to the Class 2
> > vehicle data
> > > bus J1850PWM, J1850VPW, ISO9141 and KWP2000.
> > >
> > > Has anyone ever tried to connect to these bus using the standard on
> chip
> > > serial controllers.
> > >
> > > Are there any source code somewhere that would help me set this up.
> > >
> > > Thanks to all.
> > >
> > > Jean-Sebastien
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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Re: Experience with J1850 and ISO9141
Started by ●March 31, 2006
Reply by ●March 31, 20062006-03-31
Jean-Sebastien,
I'm afraid I have bad news for you.
J1850 VPW and PWM are completely different. The 68HC58 will not work for
J1850 PWM signals. The MSM6636 is EOL and you will have a difficult time
finding parts. If you only need a small quantity, you should check with some
of the inventory houses that stock obsolete parts(4 star, hong kong
inventory, etc.). If you need more, you're probably better off rolling your
own solution but then you will need access to in-depth documentation.
For VPW, I do agree that the 68HC58 is much easier to work with than the
BDLC and is therefore a better choice for relatively low volume applications
or ones that need a lot of versatility (e.g. scan tools for multiple vehicle
makes). I hope that part is not going to go the way of the dinosaur any time
soon because we use it extensively.
-Dan White
-----Original Message-----
From: 6... [mailto:6...]On Behalf Of
Jean-Sebastien Bouchard
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 5:19 PM
To: 6...
Subject: RE: [68HC12] Experience with J1850 and ISO9141
Both the MC9S12DP256 and the 68HC58 datasheets talk about the output to the
J1850-VPW bus.
What about the J1850PWM bus. My guess is that it is just a matter of
physical interface between the selected controller and the bus, right?
Also, very little information may be found about the actual physical
interface that is recommended to the J1850PWM bus. The SAE spec itself only
discuss the timing issues and does not propose a recommended connection to
the bus. I would appreciate your input to this matter?
I have also found another controller, from OKI semiconductors, the MSM6636?
How would you rate this controller compared to the 68HC58?
thanks
_____
From: 6... [mailto:6...] On Behalf Of
Kerry Berland
Sent: February 3, 2006 7:37 PM
To: 6...
Subject: RE: [68HC12] Experience with J1850 and ISO9141
Agree with Rob Milne that a 68HC58 might be easier to work with. If you're
building a gateway
between a car and a PC, serving as a diagnostic tool, that might be a good
way to go. I mistakenly
assumed the task involved designing an actual control module that goes into
a car, and for a
high-volume product, the reduced cost of an integrated solution makes the
software headaches
worthwhile. And also for a Class 2 ECU, one must deal with all the
complications of the upper layers
of Class 2.
As for the "XC" versus "MC"-I think you'll find that even if the
documentation you have says "MC,"
you can only buy an "XC" from Freescale. Check the Freescale website. My
understanding is that this
device does not meet Freescale "MC" specs. Support is limited from Freescale
as to the 68HC58..I
don't think they really encourage people to use it for new designs..There's
a reason why they don't
put the data sheet on their website. However it wouldn't hurt to check this
for yourself personally
by contacting a Freescale FAE knowledgeable about their automotive chips.
Hope this is helpful, not trying to be argumentative..
Best regards,
Kerry Berland
k...@siliconengines.net
Silicon Engines
3550 West Salt Creek Lane
Suite 105
Arlington Heights, IL 60005 USA
Phone 847-637-1180 Ext. 223
Fax 847-637-1185
www.siliconengines.net
-----Original Message-----
From: 6... [mailto:6...] On Behalf Of
Rob Milne
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 5:12 PM
To: 6...
Subject: Re: [68HC12] Experience with J1850 and ISO9141
I don't know the nature of your 'tool', but some automotive bus gateways
(like one I've coded) don't require much knowledge of the upper OSI
layers. Data link layer is about all you need. Packetizing and
interpreting the data is left to a PC program. Other than implementing
some type of message filter, the most work required is designing a
real-time eventdriven architecture. I haven't actually written a driver
for the MC86HC58 (thats how it is referred to by my pdf), but the
document indicates it to be a much preferable solution - I hate the bdlc
implementation - flakey unless HPRIO used and/or no possibility of other
interrupts interfering (ie: SCI). It may be cheap but it sure as hell
stinks. There was no document on how to implement on S12 - I had to
infer from references to similar chips and many painful iterations (I
pity my poor beta testing client). I talked to a Freescale engineer and
it helped a little. I can't be more specific (NDA).
rob
Jean-Sebastien Bouchard wrote:
> We have access to full class 2 specification. This is not a problem.
> It is only that right now, we use a third party solution to connect to
older
> bus which are not CAN, i.e. J1850, ISO9141, etc
> We would like to get rid of this tool and our customer will keep asking
for
> connectivity to these bus as long as there are vehicles on the road which
> uses them. So we will need to support these bus for a few years.
>
> I have been looking for information on the XC68HC58, but the Freescale
> website does not provide the datasheet for this chip...
> _____
>
> From: 6... [mailto:6...] On Behalf Of
> Kerry Berland
> Sent: February 3, 2006 3:36 PM
> To: 6...
> Subject: RE: [68HC12] Experience with J1850 and ISO9141
> I don't think it's too easy to find source code for either J1850 or
> ISO9141--so far as I know there
> is very little freeware available in the automotive market.
>
> We've done automotive products using J1850 and I think you'll find that
> about 5% of the information
> you'll need is freely available (J1850 and related standards on the SAE
> website), and the other 95%
> is contained in Class 2 specifications proprietary to GM that were
> originated either by GM, or
> Ascent Corporation under contract to GM. Do you have access to Class 2
> specifications?
>
> I'm not sure what Rob Milne means about "native J1850"--it's true that the
> XC68HC58 handles more of
> the low-level layers than the BDLC cell in integrated microcontrollers,
> putting more of a burden on
> the MCU, but the BDLC approach is more cost-effective. Both approaches
> require quite an astonishing
> lot of firmware to handle the upper layers of the Class 2 protocol...If
you
> have access to the Class
> 2 specifications you'll know what is meant by this...
>
> The XC68HC58 has its own quirks and errata, as may be indicated by the
fact
> that after many years
> Freescale still shows it as an "XC" because it doesn't fully pass
Freescale
> "MC" requirements.
> Nevertheless this part is still in production. But this part is listed as
> PRODUCT MATURITY, so be
> careful if this is a new design that needs to last for a long time. (In
fact
> J1850 itself is tending
> to be phased out in favor of CAN.)
>
> You can learn a lot about ISO-9141, ISO-14230, and KWP 2000 from the
> applicable ISO specifications.
> However there is usually a lot of vehicle-specific information that you
> would also need to know.
> Silicon Engines makes low-cost tools that connect a PC to ISO-9141 or
> ISO-14230 and maybe they can
> help in development.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Kerry Berland
> k...@siliconengines.net
> Silicon Engines
> 3550 West Salt Creek Lane
> Suite 105
> Arlington Heights, IL 60005 USA
> Phone 847-637-1180 Ext. 223
> Fax 847-637-1185
> www.siliconengines.net
>
> NOTE: email address, office address, phones,
> and website address changed 9/1/05,
> please update your records.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: 6... [mailto:6...] On Behalf Of
> Rob Milne
> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 11:05 PM
> To: 6...
> Subject: Re: [68HC12] Experience with J1850 and ISO9141
>
> Pardon me for misspelling your name Jean-Sebastien.
>
> rob
>
> Rob Milne wrote:
> > Hi Sebastien,
> >
> > The XDP cannot talk native J1850. The DP256 has the on chip bdlc
module
> > but I don't recommend it too highly because the state machine runs in
> > the program code rather than co-pro hardware. Check out the XC68HC58.
> >
> > rob
> >
> > Jean-Sebastien Bouchard wrote:
> > > I would like to connect the MC9S12XDP512 device to the Class 2
> > vehicle data
> > > bus J1850PWM, J1850VPW, ISO9141 and KWP2000.
> > >
> > > Has anyone ever tried to connect to these bus using the standard on
> chip
> > > serial controllers.
> > >
> > > Are there any source code somewhere that would help me set this up.
> > >
> > > Thanks to all.
> > >
> > > Jean-Sebastien
> > >
> > >
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I'm afraid I have bad news for you.
J1850 VPW and PWM are completely different. The 68HC58 will not work for
J1850 PWM signals. The MSM6636 is EOL and you will have a difficult time
finding parts. If you only need a small quantity, you should check with some
of the inventory houses that stock obsolete parts(4 star, hong kong
inventory, etc.). If you need more, you're probably better off rolling your
own solution but then you will need access to in-depth documentation.
For VPW, I do agree that the 68HC58 is much easier to work with than the
BDLC and is therefore a better choice for relatively low volume applications
or ones that need a lot of versatility (e.g. scan tools for multiple vehicle
makes). I hope that part is not going to go the way of the dinosaur any time
soon because we use it extensively.
-Dan White
-----Original Message-----
From: 6... [mailto:6...]On Behalf Of
Jean-Sebastien Bouchard
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 5:19 PM
To: 6...
Subject: RE: [68HC12] Experience with J1850 and ISO9141
Both the MC9S12DP256 and the 68HC58 datasheets talk about the output to the
J1850-VPW bus.
What about the J1850PWM bus. My guess is that it is just a matter of
physical interface between the selected controller and the bus, right?
Also, very little information may be found about the actual physical
interface that is recommended to the J1850PWM bus. The SAE spec itself only
discuss the timing issues and does not propose a recommended connection to
the bus. I would appreciate your input to this matter?
I have also found another controller, from OKI semiconductors, the MSM6636?
How would you rate this controller compared to the 68HC58?
thanks
_____
From: 6... [mailto:6...] On Behalf Of
Kerry Berland
Sent: February 3, 2006 7:37 PM
To: 6...
Subject: RE: [68HC12] Experience with J1850 and ISO9141
Agree with Rob Milne that a 68HC58 might be easier to work with. If you're
building a gateway
between a car and a PC, serving as a diagnostic tool, that might be a good
way to go. I mistakenly
assumed the task involved designing an actual control module that goes into
a car, and for a
high-volume product, the reduced cost of an integrated solution makes the
software headaches
worthwhile. And also for a Class 2 ECU, one must deal with all the
complications of the upper layers
of Class 2.
As for the "XC" versus "MC"-I think you'll find that even if the
documentation you have says "MC,"
you can only buy an "XC" from Freescale. Check the Freescale website. My
understanding is that this
device does not meet Freescale "MC" specs. Support is limited from Freescale
as to the 68HC58..I
don't think they really encourage people to use it for new designs..There's
a reason why they don't
put the data sheet on their website. However it wouldn't hurt to check this
for yourself personally
by contacting a Freescale FAE knowledgeable about their automotive chips.
Hope this is helpful, not trying to be argumentative..
Best regards,
Kerry Berland
k...@siliconengines.net
Silicon Engines
3550 West Salt Creek Lane
Suite 105
Arlington Heights, IL 60005 USA
Phone 847-637-1180 Ext. 223
Fax 847-637-1185
www.siliconengines.net
-----Original Message-----
From: 6... [mailto:6...] On Behalf Of
Rob Milne
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 5:12 PM
To: 6...
Subject: Re: [68HC12] Experience with J1850 and ISO9141
I don't know the nature of your 'tool', but some automotive bus gateways
(like one I've coded) don't require much knowledge of the upper OSI
layers. Data link layer is about all you need. Packetizing and
interpreting the data is left to a PC program. Other than implementing
some type of message filter, the most work required is designing a
real-time eventdriven architecture. I haven't actually written a driver
for the MC86HC58 (thats how it is referred to by my pdf), but the
document indicates it to be a much preferable solution - I hate the bdlc
implementation - flakey unless HPRIO used and/or no possibility of other
interrupts interfering (ie: SCI). It may be cheap but it sure as hell
stinks. There was no document on how to implement on S12 - I had to
infer from references to similar chips and many painful iterations (I
pity my poor beta testing client). I talked to a Freescale engineer and
it helped a little. I can't be more specific (NDA).
rob
Jean-Sebastien Bouchard wrote:
> We have access to full class 2 specification. This is not a problem.
> It is only that right now, we use a third party solution to connect to
older
> bus which are not CAN, i.e. J1850, ISO9141, etc
> We would like to get rid of this tool and our customer will keep asking
for
> connectivity to these bus as long as there are vehicles on the road which
> uses them. So we will need to support these bus for a few years.
>
> I have been looking for information on the XC68HC58, but the Freescale
> website does not provide the datasheet for this chip...
> _____
>
> From: 6... [mailto:6...] On Behalf Of
> Kerry Berland
> Sent: February 3, 2006 3:36 PM
> To: 6...
> Subject: RE: [68HC12] Experience with J1850 and ISO9141
> I don't think it's too easy to find source code for either J1850 or
> ISO9141--so far as I know there
> is very little freeware available in the automotive market.
>
> We've done automotive products using J1850 and I think you'll find that
> about 5% of the information
> you'll need is freely available (J1850 and related standards on the SAE
> website), and the other 95%
> is contained in Class 2 specifications proprietary to GM that were
> originated either by GM, or
> Ascent Corporation under contract to GM. Do you have access to Class 2
> specifications?
>
> I'm not sure what Rob Milne means about "native J1850"--it's true that the
> XC68HC58 handles more of
> the low-level layers than the BDLC cell in integrated microcontrollers,
> putting more of a burden on
> the MCU, but the BDLC approach is more cost-effective. Both approaches
> require quite an astonishing
> lot of firmware to handle the upper layers of the Class 2 protocol...If
you
> have access to the Class
> 2 specifications you'll know what is meant by this...
>
> The XC68HC58 has its own quirks and errata, as may be indicated by the
fact
> that after many years
> Freescale still shows it as an "XC" because it doesn't fully pass
Freescale
> "MC" requirements.
> Nevertheless this part is still in production. But this part is listed as
> PRODUCT MATURITY, so be
> careful if this is a new design that needs to last for a long time. (In
fact
> J1850 itself is tending
> to be phased out in favor of CAN.)
>
> You can learn a lot about ISO-9141, ISO-14230, and KWP 2000 from the
> applicable ISO specifications.
> However there is usually a lot of vehicle-specific information that you
> would also need to know.
> Silicon Engines makes low-cost tools that connect a PC to ISO-9141 or
> ISO-14230 and maybe they can
> help in development.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Kerry Berland
> k...@siliconengines.net
> Silicon Engines
> 3550 West Salt Creek Lane
> Suite 105
> Arlington Heights, IL 60005 USA
> Phone 847-637-1180 Ext. 223
> Fax 847-637-1185
> www.siliconengines.net
>
> NOTE: email address, office address, phones,
> and website address changed 9/1/05,
> please update your records.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: 6... [mailto:6...] On Behalf Of
> Rob Milne
> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 11:05 PM
> To: 6...
> Subject: Re: [68HC12] Experience with J1850 and ISO9141
>
> Pardon me for misspelling your name Jean-Sebastien.
>
> rob
>
> Rob Milne wrote:
> > Hi Sebastien,
> >
> > The XDP cannot talk native J1850. The DP256 has the on chip bdlc
module
> > but I don't recommend it too highly because the state machine runs in
> > the program code rather than co-pro hardware. Check out the XC68HC58.
> >
> > rob
> >
> > Jean-Sebastien Bouchard wrote:
> > > I would like to connect the MC9S12XDP512 device to the Class 2
> > vehicle data
> > > bus J1850PWM, J1850VPW, ISO9141 and KWP2000.
> > >
> > > Has anyone ever tried to connect to these bus using the standard on
> chip
> > > serial controllers.
> > >
> > > Are there any source code somewhere that would help me set this up.
> > >
> > > Thanks to all.
> > >
> > > Jean-Sebastien
> > >
> > >
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