Developing/compiling software

In message <EeWdna48jIcnOi3XnZ2dnUVZ8hKdnZ2d@saix.net>, Lodewicus Maas
<wicus.maas@gmail.com> writes
>HI All
>
>I've looked at Keil uVIsion (Trial Version) as well as Asem51v1.3 (old
>stuff).
>
>Any suggestions of the compiler software you're using to write/compile
>your code and create hex files to upload to the ATMEL microcontrollers.
>I would rather review a few other options, than to invest in the Keil
>software, only to discover afterwards that there are maybe better tools
>for the job

For 8051 there are no better tools.

-- 
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

In message <4ab0af9a$0$83244$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>, Meindert Sprang
<ms@NOJUNKcustomORSPAMware.nl> writes
>"Lodewicus Maas" <wicus.maas@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:EeWdna48jIcnOi3XnZ2dnUVZ8hKdnZ2d@saix.net...
>> HI All
>>
>> I've looked at Keil uVIsion (Trial Version) as well as Asem51v1.3 (old
>> stuff).
>>
>> Any suggestions of the compiler software you're using to write/compile
>your
>> code and create hex files to upload to the ATMEL microcontrollers.
>
>I am using ImageCraft for the AVR. Cheap and good. Excellent support.

And the Imagecraft AVR compiler will work with the 8051?

READ THE QUESTION

BTW there is no better 8051 compiler than Keil

-- 
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

In message <uYKdne44RbcfZC3XnZ2dnUVZ_tednZ2d@posted.visi>, Grant Edwards
<invalid@invalid.?.invalid> writes
>On 2009-09-16, Lodewicus Maas <wicus.maas@gmail.com> wrote:
>> HI All
>>
>> I've looked at Keil uVIsion (Trial Version) as well as Asem51v1.3 (old
>> stuff).
>>
>> Any suggestions of the compiler software you're using to write/compile your
>> code and create hex files to upload to the ATMEL microcontrollers.
>
>I prefer gcc.  It's the compiler I use for 8 other processors,
>and I find it helps productivity to use the same set of tools
>on multiple projects even when the processor differs.

AFAIK there is no gcc for 8051
-- 
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

In message <h8qune$fhv$1@news.eternal-september.org>, FreeRTOS info
<noemail@mentioned.com> writes
>
>"Grant Edwards" <invalid@invalid> wrote in message news:uYKdne44RbcfZC3
>XnZ2dnUVZ_tednZ2d@posted.visi...
>> On 2009-09-16, Lodewicus Maas <wicus.maas@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> HI All
>>>
>>> I've looked at Keil uVIsion (Trial Version) as well as Asem51v1.3 (old
>>> stuff).
>>>
>>> Any suggestions of the compiler software you're using to
>>>write/compile  your
>>> code and create hex files to upload to the ATMEL microcontrollers.
>>
>> I prefer gcc.  It's the compiler I use for 8 other processors,
>> and I find it helps productivity to use the same set of tools
>> on multiple projects even when the processor differs.
>
>Is there a GCC for the 8051?  SDCC yes, GCC, as far as I know, no.

There is no comparison between the SDCC and Keil

-- 
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 23:56:05 -0400, Neil <NeilKurzm@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:

>David Brown wrote:
>> Grant Edwards wrote:
>>> On 2009-09-16, FreeRTOS info <noemail@mentioned.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Any suggestions of the compiler software you're using to
>>>>>> write/compile your code and create hex files to upload to the
>>>>>> ATMEL microcontrollers.
>>>>> I prefer gcc.  It's the compiler I use for 8 other processors,
>>>>> and I find it helps productivity to use the same set of tools
>>>>> on multiple projects even when the processor differs.
>>>> Is there a GCC for the 8051?  SDCC yes, GCC, as far as I know, no.
>>>
>>> Oops.  I didn't realize the OP meant 8051.  I assumed he meant
>>> AVR, AVR32, or ARM.  To answer you question, there isn't an
>>> 8051 backend for gcc.
>>>
>> 
>> With a bit of luck, the OP is at an early enough stage that he can pick 
>> something other than the 8051 before it is too late...
>
>Is there something wrong with using an 8052 based CPU for a low end project.

It's kind of an odd architecture (by current standards). Well suited for
assembler coding. The bit-addressable registers (including I/O ports)
avoid the need to, e.g., do a read-re/set-write sequence to twiddle a
single flag. The external memory interface isn't all that common on uCs
and can be used to address memory-mapped I/O peripherals (external
synchro-digital converters, for example).

So, there's nothing intrinsically "wrong" with it, and it can be a very
good fit for some projects. Just need to match the problem domain with
the appropriate solution set.

-- 
Rich Webb     Norfolk, VA

In message <4ab336aa$0$26305$8404b019@news.wineasy.se>, David Brown
<david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> writes
>FreeRTOS info wrote:
>>
>>> I agree about the ARM having lots of tools, but I thought the choice
>>>of
>>> practical tools for 8051 was fairly limited - either SDCC (for those
>>>who value the benefits of free and open source tools, or for those on
>>>a low budget) or Keil (for those with plenty of money looking for top
>>>quality commercial tools).  Are there other alternatives?
>>  IAR, Resonance, Tasking, to name but 3.
>>
>
>Thanks.  Keil and SDCC are the only ones I regularly read about in this
>group.

Keil IAR and Tasking are professional tools  Of the three the Keil is
the best for 8051.


> For example in this thread, the OP asked for tools for the 8051, and
>until now no one has mentioned anything other than Keil and SDCC. Are
>they so dominant that few people use other tools for the 8051?

About 80$% of the professional market is Keil.  The rest use IAR or
Tasking with only a few using anything else

> And if so, is it for technical reasons,

Mainly technical. Also the silicon companies work with Keil and IAR
before the chip is launched... often up to two years before launch.

In this case Keil would be the best technical choice. Follwoed by IAR
and tasking. SDCC is not even in the frame It can not handle the Dallas
memory map. There are several ways of doing it and I recall it took a
lot of doing to getting working well.

> economic reasons,

Economic is another reason in this particular case. The silicon
companies work with *some* compiler companies and they have the examples
and set up projects also their generated coded is usually a LOT more
compact and faster. Thus less memory is needed and less power is needed
and therefore lower costs in production that far out weigh any cost of
the tools


-- 
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 18:22:14 +0100, Chris H <chris@phaedsys.org>
wrote:

><snip>
>SDCC is not even in the frame It can not handle the Dallas
>memory map. There are several ways of doing it and I recall it took a
>lot of doing to getting working well.

Is this the issue that SDCC mentions back in 2000 and 2001 and seems
to have been resolved then?  (Those issues they mention as related to
the Dallas DS 390?)  Or something you know to be otherwise and later?

Jon

On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 10:53:35 +0200, "Lodewicus Maas"
<wicus.maas@gmail.com> wrote:

>I've looked at Keil uVIsion (Trial Version) as well as Asem51v1.3 (old 
>stuff).
>
>Any suggestions of the compiler software you're using to write/compile your 
>code and create hex files to upload to the ATMEL microcontrollers. I would 
>rather review a few other options, than to invest in the Keil software, only 
>to discover afterwards that there are maybe better tools for the job
>
>(Apologies for my tenses/grammar - English is my second language)
>
>Kind Regards 

I hope you aren't finding the many English answers complex enough to
make further discussion hard for you.  I see you haven't added
anything yet, which concerns me.  You mention Atmel and Asem51v1.3, so
I'm assuming this is the AT89 series from Atmel?

Some questions that are important to know, before discussing things:
(1)  Hobby or professional application?  (Not clear, but I'm leaning
        towards believing this is for professional use.)
(2)  Assembly or c?  (You mention asem51v1.3, but also mentioned
        'compiler software', so it's not clear to me.  It's possible
        when you talk about 'Keil software' you may only care about
        the debugger/JTAG capability, too.  Can you clarify this?)
(3)  Project size/complexity?
(4)  Unique requirements?

If budget is not a concern; this is a large, professional application;
and you intend on using the c language for it, then the main question
I'd have regarding using Keil's c compiler would be the quality of
their after-sale support for you and their product documentation.  (I
already believe they have a good quality compiler.)  How important
those are will depend some on your own skills, of course.

You might be able to test this a little by seeing how they treat you
with pre-sale questions -- but test things in several ways.  Including
some rather detailed technical questions, beforehand.  Ask for some
names they can offer you, unaffiliated with them otherwise, whom you
can talk with a little about their experiences.  And do some research
on your own to get a sense.  This may be worth a little prodding and
research at the price point they are charging.  Get a manual and look
it over, too.

Do the same for any supplier you consider.  In the end, whatever your
choice, you will spend a fair amount of your time learning to properly
use the tools.  Even if you have good hand-holding from the supplier,
excellent documentation, or an energetic and healthy users' group, you
will still have to put in a lot of your own time.  It's always good to
know what to expect and plan for.  So, the effort won't be entirely
wasted, even if the results don't materially change your final
decision.

I haven't used Keil for 20 years.  So my early experiences will be of
almost no use -- they have changed hands probably more than once since
then and, besides, the entire environment around them has also
changed.  But I think it would help others respond to you better if
you could say a little more about your situation.

Jon

Chris H wrote:

> 
> Economic is another reason in this particular case. The silicon
> companies work with *some* compiler companies and they have the examples
> and set up projects also their generated coded is usually a LOT more
> compact and faster. Thus less memory is needed and less power is needed
> and therefore lower costs in production that far out weigh any cost of
> the tools
> 
> 

Not sure I agree with all that, but the Keil compiler seems pretty good 
and the ide is easy to live with. It's just so expensive. I guess not 
too bad if you can amortize the cost over several projects. Otoh, have 
been able to complete 2 small controllers with the Silabs kits well 
within the 4 K size limit, though neither were particularly complex. 
Also have an older Keil C, 5.1 iirc, that was bought for another project 
some years ago, but am told that there is no upgrade path and must pay 
the full price, yet again. Visions of bohica etc. It's a completely 
unlocked version as well, something we (the client in fact) paid extra 
for at the time.

With regard to the ide, have been using Renasas 80C87 series on a client 
project and the "High Performance Embedded Workshop" ide looks very 
similar to the Keil
ide, as does the ide from the Embest arm development kits. Perhaps Keil 
customise the ide for many. or is the look and feel being copied and 
becoming standardised ?...

Regards,

Chris

In message <jun7b51ca0mmlh513qmraeco91cr3rscon@4ax.com>, Jon Kirwan
<jonk@infinitefactors.org> writes
>On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 18:22:14 +0100, Chris H <chris@phaedsys.org>
>wrote:
>
>><snip>
>>SDCC is not even in the frame It can not handle the Dallas
>>memory map. There are several ways of doing it and I recall it took a
>>lot of doing to getting working well.
>
>Is this the issue that SDCC mentions back in 2000 and 2001 and seems
>to have been resolved then?  (Those issues they mention as related to
>the Dallas DS 390?)  Or something you know to be otherwise and later?
>
>Jon

Hi Jon,

Last time we discussed SDCC and Keil you made all sorts or personal
attacks on me and made many claims. You were going to prove you were
right by doing a comparison test between SDCC and Keil

As that was many months ago you can either show your results or
apologise and go away.


-- 
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/