Hello All, although most of our (industrial) clients still use to have computers with a "real" serial port, I observe a small but increasing number struggling with bad USB adapters and asking for other interfaces. Therefore I'm reconsidering the best suited interface for device configuration and diagnosis. Do you still use EIA-232? Customers complaining? What do you consider a suitable "successor"? * USB. Can be even cheaper than EIA-232, and AFAIK a HID doesn't require administrator rights for "installation". But we have to supply software to the user (cost, distribution) and there remain some traces on the host system. * Ethernet, TCP/IP, HTTP, DHCP or Zeroconf? Every recent computer has Ethernet and a web browser, so the user needs no additinal components besides a patch cord. But if he wants to be connected to a(nother) network, there might arise problems. And the cost of Ethernet connectivity is higher than EIA-232 or USB. More alternatives? Oliver -- Oliver Betz, Munich despammed.com is broken, use Reply-To:
Do you still use "RS232" or something else?
Started by ●January 14, 2011
Reply by ●January 14, 20112011-01-14
On Jan 14, 2:13=A0pm, Oliver Betz <ob...@despammed.com> wrote:> Hello All, > > although most of our (industrial) clients still use to have computers > with a "real" serial port, I observe a small but increasing number > struggling with bad USB adapters and asking for other interfaces. > > Therefore I'm reconsidering the best suited interface for device > configuration and diagnosis. > > Do you still use EIA-232? Customers complaining? > > What do you consider a suitable "successor"? > > * USB. Can be even cheaper than EIA-232, and AFAIK a HID doesn't > require administrator rights for "installation". But we have to supply > software to the user (cost, distribution) and there remain some traces > on the host system. > > * Ethernet, TCP/IP, HTTP, DHCP or Zeroconf? Every recent computer has > Ethernet and a web browser, so the user needs no additinal components > besides a patch cord. But if he wants to be connected to a(nother) > network, there might arise problems. And the cost of Ethernet > connectivity is higher than EIA-232 or USB. > > More alternatives? > > Oliver > -- > Oliver Betz, Munich > despammed.com is broken, use Reply-To:I am going Ethernet - tcp/ip, VNC (RFB) access to my stuff - this leaves the communication to whatever is at the other side to the pixel/mouse/ keyboard level. Latest thing to be proudly shown: http://tgi-sci.com/tgi/nmca3.htm (board can be seen at http://tgi-sci.com/misc/nmc3top.gif ) In fact it has an RS232 but it is only for internal purposes (debugging on failed network etc.). Of course networking - especially of you maintain the entire thing locally and access it over VNC - takes up more resources, but often it is justified, e.g. in this case there is so much DSP-ing to do at peak load that the VNC &tcp load is a small fraction of the overhead. Dimiter ------------------------------------------------------ Dimiter Popoff Transgalactic Instruments http://www.tgi-sci.com ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/sets/72157600228621276/
Reply by ●January 14, 20112011-01-14
Didi wrote: [...]>> Therefore I'm reconsidering the best suited interface for device >> configuration and diagnosis.[...]>I am going Ethernet - tcp/ip, VNC (RFB) access to my stuff - this >leaves >the communication to whatever is at the other side to the pixel/mouse/ >keyboard >level. >Latest thing to be proudly shown: http://tgi-sci.com/tgi/nmca3.htm >(board can be seen at http://tgi-sci.com/misc/nmc3top.gif )this uses Ethernet for the _main_ operation. That's different from what I wrote ("device configuration and diagnosis"). Oliver -- Oliver Betz, Munich despammed.com is broken, use Reply-To:
Reply by ●January 14, 20112011-01-14
On Jan 14, 4:13=A0am, Oliver Betz <ob...@despammed.com> wrote:> Hello All,> * USB. Can be even cheaper than EIA-232, and AFAIK a HID doesn't > require administrator rights for "installation". But we have to supply > software to the user (cost, distribution) and there remain some traces > on the host system.> Oliver > -- > Oliver Betz, Munich > despammed.com is broken, use Reply-To:I have see software distributions on USB FLASH drives, including one that convinced the WindowsPC that it was a CD-ROM with an autorun.ini on it. No, it's not the cheapest solution, but there are a lot of things that you can do with it. Autorun, Boot from the USB, big file distribution, etc., etc. RK
Reply by ●January 14, 20112011-01-14
On Jan 14, 6:07=A0pm, Oliver Betz <ob...@despammed.com> wrote:> Didi wrote: > > [...] > > >> Therefore I'm reconsidering the best suited interface for device > >> configuration and diagnosis. > > [...] > > >I am going Ethernet - tcp/ip, VNC (RFB) access to my stuff - this > >leaves > >the communication to whatever is at the other side to the pixel/mouse/ > >keyboard > >level. > >Latest thing to be proudly shown:http://tgi-sci.com/tgi/nmca3.htm > >(board can be seen athttp://tgi-sci.com/misc/nmc3top.gif) > > this uses Ethernet for the _main_ operation. That's different from > what I wrote ("device configuration and diagnosis").Actually it does both. You JTAG program the flash, boot off the "ROM" disk and off you go. Devices ship such that the user can turn on "support" in which case they connect to a listening vnc here etc. Dimiter ------------------------------------------------------ Dimiter Popoff Transgalactic Instruments http://www.tgi-sci.com ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/sets/72157600228621276/
Reply by ●January 14, 20112011-01-14
Hello Oliver,> although most of our (industrial) clients still use to have computers > with a "real" serial port, I observe a small but increasing number > struggling with bad USB adapters and asking for other interfaces. > > Therefore I'm reconsidering the best suited interface for device > configuration and diagnosis. > > Do you still use EIA-232?Yes, definitely.> Customers complaining?Sometimes - but when it comes to talking about cost, they all agree to RS-232 again. :-)> What do you consider a suitable "successor"?There is none. RS-232 is by far the cheapest standard communication you can get, and it works perfectly fine even with the smallest microcontrollers. Sometimes, USB is an alternative. We tend to implement RS-232 (sometimes RS-485, sometimes USB - depending on the customers requirements) connectivity for configuration and diagnosis even in current developments. After all, the devices are build in some (smaller or larger) series, while you need the diagnosis tools only once (or a few times). So it makes perfect sense to keep the interface in the series devices as small and cheap as possible. If people want to access the devices by any other means, there are adapters for every flavour of communication (USB, Ethernet, GSM, ISDN and whatever you like). RS-232 always is the least common denominator. Ethernet generelly is not an alternative: Far too high power consumption, far too high ressources requirements (resp. wasting), too expensive. I would use Ethernet only if it was needed in the design anyway. Tilmann
Reply by ●January 14, 20112011-01-14
Oliver Betz wrote:> Hello All, > > although most of our (industrial) clients still use to have computers > with a "real" serial port, I observe a small but increasing number > struggling with bad USB adapters and asking for other interfaces. > > Therefore I'm reconsidering the best suited interface for device > configuration and diagnosis. > > Do you still use EIA-232? Customers complaining? > > What do you consider a suitable "successor"?Diagnostics should work even if everything else failed to work. As far as diagnostics only, the RS-232 is the best interface; as it requires really nothing from hardware or software to operate. Ethernet with HTTP server implies "large" system just to support this functionality. Basic Ethernet + UDP + proprietary PC software for configuration is relatively lightweight; but there will be the problems as they will be trying to connect to the device via their network. If the cost permits, I like USB/RS-232 FTDI solution. It combines the best of USB and RS-232. Vladimir Vassilevsky DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant http://www.abvolt.com
Reply by ●January 14, 20112011-01-14
In article <gec0j65r3h4d8la23gfvj1cknu5n0erp4g@z1.oliverbetz.de>, obetz@despammed.com says...> > Hello All, > > although most of our (industrial) clients still use to have computers > with a "real" serial port, I observe a small but increasing number > struggling with bad USB adapters and asking for other interfaces. > > Therefore I'm reconsidering the best suited interface for device > configuration and diagnosis. > > Do you still use EIA-232? Customers complaining?Rarely as often I leave 232 available and have serial-USB bridge chips Silabs/FTDI as well.> What do you consider a suitable "successor"?Depends on size and complexity of device, large processor with available horsepower then ethernet, less horsepower add either a USB bridge chip or ethernet module.> * USB. Can be even cheaper than EIA-232, and AFAIK a HID doesn'tIn basic hardware and cabling terms yes, but also depends on distances <5m OK, 5m+ not so workable.> require administrator rights for "installation". But we have to supply > software to the user (cost, distribution) and there remain some traces > on the host system.Don't even get me on the which OS can be supported or not and which driver on the host and if the driver works well if more than one USB device of same chip family installed (because of something else). Let alone issues of driver versions.> * Ethernet, TCP/IP, HTTP, DHCP or Zeroconf? Every recent computer has > Ethernet and a web browser, so the user needs no additinal components > besides a patch cord. But if he wants to be connected to a(nother) > network, there might arise problems. And the cost of Ethernet > connectivity is higher than EIA-232 or USB.If a larger number of devices, or longer distances in can sometimes be easier to integrate into customers network and no extra cabling.> More alternatives?It all depends on the type of equipemnt, market, where you can diagnose it from, how many, and so many other factors including the customers expectations, or internal de facto standards. -- Paul Carpenter | paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk <http://www.pcserviceselectronics.co.uk/> PC Services <http://www.pcserviceselectronics.co.uk/fonts/> Timing Diagram Font <http://www.gnuh8.org.uk/> GNU H8 - compiler & Renesas H8/H8S/H8 Tiny <http://www.badweb.org.uk/> For those web sites you hate
Reply by ●January 14, 20112011-01-14
Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote:> Diagnostics should work even if everything else failed to work. As far > as diagnostics only, the RS-232 is the best interface; as it requires > really nothing from hardware or software to operate.For the testbench I got a couple of FT232RL breakout boards from Sparkfun, attached wires with test clips to TxD, RxD, and ground. During development I can dump any kind of diagnostic data from any chip with a spare UART into any kind of program running on my desktop or laptop. Very handy. Mel.
Reply by ●January 14, 20112011-01-14
Mel wrote:> Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote: > >> Diagnostics should work even if everything else failed to work. As far >> as diagnostics only, the RS-232 is the best interface; as it requires >> really nothing from hardware or software to operate. > > For the testbench I got a couple of FT232RL breakout boards from Sparkfun, > attached wires with test clips to TxD, RxD, and ground. During development > I can dump any kind of diagnostic data from any chip with a spare UART into > any kind of program running on my desktop or laptop. Very handy. > > Mel. >You can buy USB cables with the FT232RL build-in directly from FTDI! USB end plugs into a PC, the other end can be bare wires that go into a breadboard.