Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:> I keep seeing claim that ARM devices are going to replace 8-bitters, but > it seems to me that there will always be a need for really small stuff.Freescale just presented a very small ARM: http://www.wired.com/design/2013/02/freescales-tiny-arm-chip/ Bye Jack -- Yoda of Borg am I! Assimilated shall you be! Futile resistance is, hmm?
Really tiny microcontrollers
Started by ●February 25, 2013
Reply by ●March 3, 20132013-03-03
Reply by ●March 23, 20132013-03-23
On 2/25/2013 3:37 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:> On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 19:12:47 +0100, Arlet Ottens wrote: > >> On 02/25/2013 06:32 PM, Tim Wescott wrote: >> >>> I suspect that for most applications having a few extra pins isn't a >>> big cost, so the pressure on manufacturers to reduce the pin counts is >>> mild. >> >> Also, with devices such as the LPC1102, the package is only barely >> bigger than the silicon die itself, so putting 16 balls on the bottom >> keeps it smaller than putting 8 pins on the side. > > The problem with that package is that the board technology required to > use it, much less soldering the thing down, is well outside of what I'm > used to. I can handle 0.5mm-pitch leaded parts, but that thing is a bit > much (or perhaps a bit not-much, since it's so teeny). > > Someone please chime in here, but it looks like that package pretty much > requires a multi-layer board with microvias -- yes? Can anyone point to > an applications note on how to actually make a board for that part and > stick it down?I don't know exactly what constitutes a micro-via, but yes, the smaller BGAs require fine pitch routing and often very tiny via pads and holes. That is the main reason I avoid them. I want to avoid the premiums for the fine pitch board fab. -- Rick
Reply by ●February 23, 20152015-02-23
On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 at 10:53:33 AM UTC+13, j.m.gr...@gmail.com wrote:> On Monday, February 25, 2013 9:47:20 PM UTC+13, Paul Rubin wrote: > > I've found some of the ATtiny parts in 2x2mm packages. > > Is there anything else like that, preferably with a bit more > > code space and ram (these things have 512B code, 32B ram)? Is it > > difficult to work with those packages? A little larger is ok. > > Perhaps the 3mm MSOP package ? > Available now is : > C8051T606-GT IC 8051 MCU 1.5K-EEPROM 10-MSOP > > and coming 'soon', also in 10-MSOP, I see are > > Nuvoton : N76E884 8KF 512R > SyncMOS : SM39R08A5 1.8~5.5V 25MHZ 8KByteF 256ByteR >Bumping this thread with an update... Still waiting on N76E884, tho there is a PDF brief since Sept 13. Meanwhile, Silabs have just released their new EFM8 series. www.silabs.com\efm8 3mm x 3mm QFN20, and very cheap. - from 21c/10k for 2KF/256R WITH peripherals included like 12b ADC, CalOsc, UART, i2c, SPI, - that's cheaper than most IO expander, and cheaper than any 12b ADC Not the Wide Vcc of SyncMOS, but easier to get & develop with.
Reply by ●February 23, 20152015-02-23
j.m.granville@gmail.com wrote: [%X]> Bumping this thread with an update... > > Still waiting on N76E884, tho there is a PDF brief since Sept 13. > > Meanwhile, Silabs have just released their new EFM8 series. > > www.silabs.com\efm8 > > 3mm x 3mm QFN20, and very cheap. - from 21c/10k for 2KF/256R WITH > peripherals included like 12b ADC, CalOsc, UART, i2c, SPI, - that's > cheaper than most IO expander, and cheaper than any 12b ADC > > Not the Wide Vcc of SyncMOS, but easier to get & develop with.The url <http://pages.silabs.com/efm8-webinar.html> actually gets you somewhere a bit closer (your, presumably hand tyoped one has the slash the wrong way round and doesn't get you the chip you mentioned). I note that this seem to be an 8051 derivative (8-bit). The TSSOP20 package is not much more real estate and you get chips with an ARM Core M0 with 12-bit ADC's, a processor clocked at 48MHz, with UART, I2C, SPI and a whole host of other goodies. I shall be trawling the TI site to see if they have a FRAM based device in that package size with 12-bit ADC. -- ******************************************************************** Paul E. Bennett IEng MIET.....<email://Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> Forth based HIDECS Consultancy.............<http://www.hidecs.co.uk> Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972 Tel: +44 TBA (due to re-location) Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk.. ********************************************************************
Reply by ●February 24, 20152015-02-24
On 24/02/15 01:33, j.m.granville@gmail.com wrote:> On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 at 10:53:33 AM UTC+13, j.m.gr...@gmail.com wrote: >> On Monday, February 25, 2013 9:47:20 PM UTC+13, Paul Rubin wrote: >>> I've found some of the ATtiny parts in 2x2mm packages. >>> Is there anything else like that, preferably with a bit more >>> code space and ram (these things have 512B code, 32B ram)? Is it >>> difficult to work with those packages? A little larger is ok. >> >> Perhaps the 3mm MSOP package ? >> Available now is : >> C8051T606-GT IC 8051 MCU 1.5K-EEPROM 10-MSOP >> >> and coming 'soon', also in 10-MSOP, I see are >> >> Nuvoton : N76E884 8KF 512R >> SyncMOS : SM39R08A5 1.8~5.5V 25MHZ 8KByteF 256ByteR >> > > Bumping this thread with an update... > > Still waiting on N76E884, tho there is a PDF brief since Sept 13. > > Meanwhile, Silabs have just released their new EFM8 series. > > www.silabs.com\efm8 > > 3mm x 3mm QFN20, and very cheap. - from 21c/10k for 2KF/256R WITH peripherals included like 12b ADC, CalOsc, UART, i2c, SPI, - that's cheaper than most IO expander, and cheaper than any 12b ADC > > Not the Wide Vcc of SyncMOS, but easier to get & develop with. ><http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/overview.jsp?code=KINETIS_MINI_SERIES>
Reply by ●February 24, 20152015-02-24
> > > > www.silabs.com\efm8 > >> > The url <http://pages.silabs.com/efm8-webinar.html> actually gets you > somewhere a bit closer (your, presumably hand tyoped one has the slash the > wrong way round and doesn't get you the chip you mentioned).oops, however paste of my typo does land here fine http://www.silabs.com/products/mcu/8-bit/Pages/efm8.aspx
Reply by ●February 24, 20152015-02-24
On Saturday, March 23, 2013 at 2:32:40 PM UTC-7, rickman wrote:> On 2/25/2013 3:37 PM, Tim Wescott wrote: > > On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 19:12:47 +0100, Arlet Ottens wrote: > > > >> On 02/25/2013 06:32 PM, Tim Wescott wrote: > >> > >>> I suspect that for most applications having a few extra pins isn't a > >>> big cost, so the pressure on manufacturers to reduce the pin counts is > >>> mild. > >> > >> Also, with devices such as the LPC1102, the package is only barely > >> bigger than the silicon die itself, so putting 16 balls on the bottom > >> keeps it smaller than putting 8 pins on the side. > > > > The problem with that package is that the board technology required to > > use it, much less soldering the thing down, is well outside of what I'm > > used to. I can handle 0.5mm-pitch leaded parts, but that thing is a bit > > much (or perhaps a bit not-much, since it's so teeny). > > > > Someone please chime in here, but it looks like that package pretty much > > requires a multi-layer board with microvias -- yes? Can anyone point to > > an applications note on how to actually make a board for that part and > > stick it down? > > I don't know exactly what constitutes a micro-via,To put a via inside a 0.5mm grid, you would need around 0.2mm hole and 0.1mm ring. Oh yes, you can consider it micro-via.
Reply by ●February 25, 20152015-02-25
On 2/25/2013 8:57 AM, Paul Rubin wrote:> Arlet Ottens <usenet+5@c-scape.nl> writes: >> The ARM Cortex M0 core in 90LP process is only 0.04 mm^2, so there's >> no physical reason why you couldn't put it in a tiny package. > > For some reason they want to put these parts in packages with quite a > few pins. For what I'm doing I'm happy with one a/d line and two or > three gpio's, and could make do with less than that. So an 8-pin or > maybe 6-pin package should be enough. I don't know why only the > lowest-memory parts come in such small packages. I guess they think if > you want more code space, you probably want to control a lot of stuff.It's not what they think you want, it is what people are willing to pay for in quantities that turn a profit. There are physical limitations to how small a device can be if you include more memory. As somone pointed out the smaller processors are pretty tiny, but that doesn't include the RAM, ROM, peripherals or even the I/O pads.> They've lost track of how cheap the chips have gotten. If spending an > extra dollar on a 4k part instead of an 1k part lets you develop the > code a few days faster (by being less constrained about software tools > and languages), for a low-quantity device it's well worth the slightly > higher parts cost.Ok, so?>> if you drop the hand soldering requirement, you can already get >> the LPC1102/1104 in a 2.2x2.36 mm BGA-16 package, including 32kB flash >> and 8kB of RAM. > > That's good to know about, and impressive. Is it possible to solder > that part with a reflow oven and some tweezers, or does it need machine > placement? I'm mostly a software guy and I've never messed with any > parts that small, but I know some of the hardware hackers around here > use toaster ovens for reflow soldering.We have had this conversation before. You really need to forget the idea of hand placing and soldering these sort of devices. You can build a prototype with a larger package and then move to the rice grain packages for production if you insist on hand building prototypes. -- Rick
Reply by ●February 25, 20152015-02-25
On 2/25/2013 12:16 PM, Olaf Kaluza wrote:> Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote: > > >That's good to know about, and impressive. Is it possible to solder > >that part with a reflow oven and some tweezers, or does it need machine > >placement? > > It is not a problem. I do all my prototype by hand-placement. But this > is heplful: > > http://www.smtinspection.com/Mantis-Microscope/ > > > >I'm mostly a software guy and I've never messed with any > >parts that small, but I know some of the hardware hackers around here > >use toaster ovens for reflow soldering. > > I prefer this: > > http://www.steinel.net/Professional-Heat-Guns/HG2310LCDHow do you apply the solder? I have not met anyone who deals with these very tiny BGA or LGA packages in a home lab. I'd like to meet someone who claims to do that. -- Rick
Reply by ●February 25, 20152015-02-25
On 25/02/15 06:25, rickman wrote:> I have not met anyone who deals with these very tiny BGA or LGA packages in a > home lab. I'd like to meet someone who claims to do that.http://www.instructables.com/id/Toaster-Oven-Reflow-Soldering-BGA/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkjOwuSEzKU https://olimex.wordpress.com/2014/05/29/bga-chips-soldering-and-replacement-tutorial/ http://papilio.cc/index.php?n=Papilio.JaxHaxBGASolderingAtHome All from 10 seconds with google (bga soldering at home), 60 seconds copying URLs
