On 25/02/15 12:01, Tom Gardner wrote:> On 25/02/15 06:25, rickman wrote: >> I have not met anyone who deals with these very tiny BGA or LGA >> packages in a >> home lab. I'd like to meet someone who claims to do that. > > http://www.instructables.com/id/Toaster-Oven-Reflow-Soldering-BGA/ > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkjOwuSEzKU > https://olimex.wordpress.com/2014/05/29/bga-chips-soldering-and-replacement-tutorial/ > > http://papilio.cc/index.php?n=Papilio.JaxHaxBGASolderingAtHome > > All from 10 seconds with google (bga soldering at home), 60 seconds > copying URLs >It is usually pretty pointless trying to do that sort of thing, except perhaps as a personal challenge. You only need these tiny packages if you are a serious professional doing serious work, because you are either making such large quantities that the price difference is important, or because you are making specialised cards with extreme space requirements. Either way, you have access to proper equipment - and home-made solutions are too risky to be worth considering.
Really tiny microcontrollers
Started by ●February 25, 2013
Reply by ●February 25, 20152015-02-25
Reply by ●February 25, 20152015-02-25
On 25/02/15 11:45, David Brown wrote:> On 25/02/15 12:01, Tom Gardner wrote: >> On 25/02/15 06:25, rickman wrote: >>> I have not met anyone who deals with these very tiny BGA or LGA >>> packages in a >>> home lab. I'd like to meet someone who claims to do that. >> >> http://www.instructables.com/id/Toaster-Oven-Reflow-Soldering-BGA/ >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkjOwuSEzKU >> https://olimex.wordpress.com/2014/05/29/bga-chips-soldering-and-replacement-tutorial/ >> >> http://papilio.cc/index.php?n=Papilio.JaxHaxBGASolderingAtHome >> >> All from 10 seconds with google (bga soldering at home), 60 seconds >> copying URLs >> > > It is usually pretty pointless trying to do that sort of thing, except > perhaps as a personal challenge. > > You only need these tiny packages if you are a serious professional > doing serious work, because you are either making such large quantities > that the price difference is important, or because you are making > specialised cards with extreme space requirements. Either way, you have > access to proper equipment - and home-made solutions are too risky to be > worth considering.Oh, I agree with all that, but that wasn't the statement! The other problem I'd add is that BGAs tend to imply significant PCB design/layout/fabrication constraints that are outside the scope of homebrew kit.
Reply by ●February 25, 20152015-02-25
On 25/02/15 12:54, Tom Gardner wrote:> On 25/02/15 11:45, David Brown wrote: >> On 25/02/15 12:01, Tom Gardner wrote: >>> On 25/02/15 06:25, rickman wrote: >>>> I have not met anyone who deals with these very tiny BGA or LGA >>>> packages in a >>>> home lab. I'd like to meet someone who claims to do that. >>> >>> http://www.instructables.com/id/Toaster-Oven-Reflow-Soldering-BGA/ >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkjOwuSEzKU >>> https://olimex.wordpress.com/2014/05/29/bga-chips-soldering-and-replacement-tutorial/ >>> >>> >>> http://papilio.cc/index.php?n=Papilio.JaxHaxBGASolderingAtHome >>> >>> All from 10 seconds with google (bga soldering at home), 60 seconds >>> copying URLs >>> >> >> It is usually pretty pointless trying to do that sort of thing, except >> perhaps as a personal challenge. >> >> You only need these tiny packages if you are a serious professional >> doing serious work, because you are either making such large quantities >> that the price difference is important, or because you are making >> specialised cards with extreme space requirements. Either way, you have >> access to proper equipment - and home-made solutions are too risky to be >> worth considering. > > Oh, I agree with all that, but that wasn't the statement!Fair 'nuff.> > The other problem I'd add is that BGAs tend to imply significant > PCB design/layout/fabrication constraints that are outside the scope > of homebrew kit. >Indeed.
Reply by ●February 25, 20152015-02-25
On Monday, February 25, 2013 at 3:21:48 AM UTC-6, Arlet wrote:> On 02/25/2013 09:47 AM, Paul Rubin wrote: > > I'm wondering what the physically smallest microcontrollers are, that > > aren't too crazy to program and that are amenable to hand soldering with > > normal SMT tools. I've found some of the ATtiny parts in 2x2mm > > packages. Is there anything else like that, preferably with a bit more > > code space and ram (these things have 512B code, 32B ram)? Is it > > difficult to work with those packages? A little larger is ok. The AVR > > instruction set is fairly nice. I'd consider the PIC10's to be crazy to > > program. > > > > I keep seeing claim that ARM devices are going to replace 8-bitters, but > > it seems to me that there will always be a need for really small stuff. > > The ARM Cortex M0 core in 90LP process is only 0.04 mm^2, so there's no > physical reason why you couldn't put it in a tiny package. In fact, if > you drop the hand soldering requirement, you can already get the > LPC1102/1104 in a 2.2x2.36 mm BGA-16 package, including 32kB flash and > 8kB of RAM.Also the Freescale KL02CSP at 1.9mm by 2.04mm, 20 pins
Reply by ●February 25, 20152015-02-25
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> writes:> It is usually pretty pointless trying to do that sort of thing, except > perhaps as a personal challenge. > You only need these tiny packages if you are a serious professional > doing serious work, because you are either making such large quantities > that the price difference is important, or because you are making > specialised cards with extreme space requirements.Nah, the maker and hobbyist community is heavily into making tiny wearables and they do stuff like that (or at least want to) all the time. This thread was started by me a year or so ago out of interest like that.
Reply by ●February 25, 20152015-02-25
On 2/25/2015 6:01 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:> On 25/02/15 06:25, rickman wrote: >> >> How do you apply the solder? >> >> I have not met anyone who deals with these very tiny BGA or LGA >> packages in a >> home lab. I'd like to meet someone who claims to do that. > > http://www.instructables.com/id/Toaster-Oven-Reflow-Soldering-BGA/ > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkjOwuSEzKU > https://olimex.wordpress.com/2014/05/29/bga-chips-soldering-and-replacement-tutorial/ > > http://papilio.cc/index.php?n=Papilio.JaxHaxBGASolderingAtHome > > All from 10 seconds with google (bga soldering at home), 60 seconds > copying URLsAnd yet *none* of these answer the question of how Olaf Kaluza applies the solder to his parts. The first link doesn't apply solder and offers no info on how well that works. The youtube video guy said he made 5 larger BGA boards and only one worked. The BGA in question is rather large. The third link is about removing and replacing a rather large BGA. The video in the fourth link is the same as the youtube video. I appreciate the help, but I'm curious about how Olaf does it with the very tiny parts he is using. -- Rick
Reply by ●February 25, 20152015-02-25
Den onsdag den 25. februar 2015 kl. 21.27.27 UTC+1 skrev rickman:> On 2/25/2015 6:01 AM, Tom Gardner wrote: > > On 25/02/15 06:25, rickman wrote: > >> > >> How do you apply the solder? > >> > >> I have not met anyone who deals with these very tiny BGA or LGA > >> packages in a > >> home lab. I'd like to meet someone who claims to do that. > > > > http://www.instructables.com/id/Toaster-Oven-Reflow-Soldering-BGA/ > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkjOwuSEzKU > > https://olimex.wordpress.com/2014/05/29/bga-chips-soldering-and-replacement-tutorial/ > > > > http://papilio.cc/index.php?n=Papilio.JaxHaxBGASolderingAtHome > > > > All from 10 seconds with google (bga soldering at home), 60 seconds > > copying URLs > > And yet *none* of these answer the question of how Olaf Kaluza applies > the solder to his parts. > > The first link doesn't apply solder and offers no info on how well that > works. > > The youtube video guy said he made 5 larger BGA boards and only one > worked. The BGA in question is rather large. > > The third link is about removing and replacing a rather large BGA. > > The video in the fourth link is the same as the youtube video. > > I appreciate the help, but I'm curious about how Olaf does it with the > very tiny parts he is using. >many of the cheap pcb protype shops also make solder paste stencils paste,stencil, hotplate/toasteroven and you can pretty much solder anything -Lasse
Reply by ●February 25, 20152015-02-25
On 2/25/2015 4:46 PM, langwadt@fonz.dk wrote:> Den onsdag den 25. februar 2015 kl. 21.27.27 UTC+1 skrev rickman: >> On 2/25/2015 6:01 AM, Tom Gardner wrote: >>> On 25/02/15 06:25, rickman wrote: >>>> >>>> How do you apply the solder? >>>> >>>> I have not met anyone who deals with these very tiny BGA or LGA >>>> packages in a >>>> home lab. I'd like to meet someone who claims to do that. >>> >>> http://www.instructables.com/id/Toaster-Oven-Reflow-Soldering-BGA/ >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkjOwuSEzKU >>> https://olimex.wordpress.com/2014/05/29/bga-chips-soldering-and-replacement-tutorial/ >>> >>> http://papilio.cc/index.php?n=Papilio.JaxHaxBGASolderingAtHome >>> >>> All from 10 seconds with google (bga soldering at home), 60 seconds >>> copying URLs >> >> And yet *none* of these answer the question of how Olaf Kaluza applies >> the solder to his parts. >> >> The first link doesn't apply solder and offers no info on how well that >> works. >> >> The youtube video guy said he made 5 larger BGA boards and only one >> worked. The BGA in question is rather large. >> >> The third link is about removing and replacing a rather large BGA. >> >> The video in the fourth link is the same as the youtube video. >> >> I appreciate the help, but I'm curious about how Olaf does it with the >> very tiny parts he is using. >> > > many of the cheap pcb protype shops also make solder paste stencils > > paste,stencil, hotplate/toasteroven and you can pretty much solder anythingIn theory. I'd like to hear from someone who had soldered such a fine pitch part. Someone mentioned the LPC1102/1104 in a 2.2x2.36 mm BGA-16 package. I believe that would be approx 0.5 mm ball spacing so the pads would be approx half that or 0.25 mm or 0.010 inches. I would not want to have to align the stencil to the accuracy required to put solder paste down in 10 mil squares. I guess soldering with no paste is an option. We *are* talking about hand made prototypes after all. But the guy who was soldering much larger pitch devices only got 1 in 5 to work. Maybe that improved with subsequent passes. I still say it is just plain easier and if you assign any reasonable value to your time, cheaper to pay a shop to do it by machine. -- Rick
Reply by ●February 26, 20152015-02-26
rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:> I believe that would be approx 0.5 mm ball spacing ... > I still say it is just plain easier and if you assign any reasonable > value to your time, cheaper to pay a shop to do it by machine.I'd be interested to know where to get this done and what it costs. The cheap prototype shops I know of can't deal with anything that small, but I'm not that conversant with the field.
Reply by ●February 26, 20152015-02-26
On 2/25/2015 11:27 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes: >> I believe that would be approx 0.5 mm ball spacing ... >> I still say it is just plain easier and if you assign any reasonable >> value to your time, cheaper to pay a shop to do it by machine. > > I'd be interested to know where to get this done and what it costs. The > cheap prototype shops I know of can't deal with anything that small, but > I'm not that conversant with the field.I have not used these guys so no guarantees. They send me ads regularly and I think others have said they use them. http://www.4pcb.com/4pcb-monthly-specials.html I know there are some Chinese PCB makers who have a good reputation and provide low pricing. I don't recall seeing any good web sites for Chinese assembly houses. Personally I am happy working with a local outfit. I don't know for sure just how advanced their technology is. When it comes to production, I try not to push anyone's envelope, especially my own. The problem with a remote fab house is rework. Shipping both ways and trying to convey instructions is not so easy. Heck, when I am there in the plant it can be hard making my instructions clear enough. -- Rick
