Outside of the hobbyist ecosystem, what is the actual market size for new, non-legacy, ICs with a maximum Vcc of ~5V ? I've just picked up a few of the new Microchip 1Mbit SPI RAM ICs: http://uk.farnell.com/microchip/23lcv1024-i-p/sram-serial-1mbit-2-5-5-5v-8pdip/dp/2291921 and I was utterly amazed to see them available in this 5V capable packaging. This is a product range which until now has topped out at 3.6V maximum and the inputs were not even 5V tolerant on those earlier devices. Yet here in 2013, Microchip has released a new set of parts in this range which are not only 5V I/O tolerant, but actually run at 5V as well. To my mind, it would be like Microchip, say, suddenly deciding to create a PIC32 range which runs at 5V. They clearly would not do this unless there was a market for them, but I am just puzzled what that market is. If this was for the hobbyist market only I would have expected them to carry on saying "use one of our 3.6V devices with a level shifter". Even in the hobbyist market however many of the newer devices you might want to interface with are increasingly 3.3V only (and without 5V tolerant inputs either in many cases) so even as a hobbyist I am moving down into the 3.3V MCU world anyway. Observations/non-hobbyist viewpoints welcome. :-) Simon. -- Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
Market size of new, non-legacy, 5V ICs ?
Started by ●March 17, 2013
Reply by ●March 17, 20132013-03-17
On 3/17/2013 5:35 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:> Outside of the hobbyist ecosystem, what is the actual market size for > new, non-legacy, ICs with a maximum Vcc of ~5V ?There are few areas where 5V power is preferred: * Most of CAN transceivers require 5V. * Power electronics; i.e. high/low side switches, FET drivers etc. often require 5V. * There is a lot more flexibility and choice with analog electronics running on 5V rather then 3.3V. Summarizing, in applications like industrial/automotive controllers, 5V has its place. Vladimir Vassilevsky DSP and Mixed Signal Designs www.abvolt.com
Reply by ●March 17, 20132013-03-17
On 2013-03-17, Vladimir Vassilevsky <nospam@nowhere.com> wrote:> On 3/17/2013 5:35 AM, Simon Clubley wrote: >> Outside of the hobbyist ecosystem, what is the actual market size for >> new, non-legacy, ICs with a maximum Vcc of ~5V ? > > There are few areas where 5V power is preferred: > > * Most of CAN transceivers require 5V. > * Power electronics; i.e. high/low side switches, FET drivers etc. often > require 5V. > * There is a lot more flexibility and choice with analog electronics > running on 5V rather then 3.3V. > > Summarizing, in applications like industrial/automotive controllers, 5V > has its place. >Thanks. Those are some interesting examples I had not thought about. With those examples in mind, I will now modify my original question to instead ask only about ICs which would be used for mainly digital signalling or interfacing purposes such as the SPI RAM IC that started me thinking about this in the first place. :-) Even though Microchip is a hobbyist friendly manufacturer, I'm still not seeing the market justification for moving from 3.6V to a 5V capable setup in 2013 for what is a purely digital IC without legacy issues. Simon. PS: In case anyone is wondering why it matters, the answer is that it doesn't really. It's just that it's so at odds with all my recent experiences of interfacing to devices that are 3.3V only (and in most cases were not even 5V tolerant) that I was just trying to understand what was going on. -- Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
Reply by ●March 17, 20132013-03-17
On 17/03/13 16:15, Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote:> On 3/17/2013 5:35 AM, Simon Clubley wrote: >> Outside of the hobbyist ecosystem, what is the actual market size for >> new, non-legacy, ICs with a maximum Vcc of ~5V ? > > There are few areas where 5V power is preferred: > > * Most of CAN transceivers require 5V.We use 3.3V CAN transceivers, which are now very common.> * Power electronics; i.e. high/low side switches, FET drivers etc. often > require 5V.That's the big one that I see. Lots of FETs/FET drivers, switches, solid-state relays, etc., are 5V on the logic side.> * There is a lot more flexibility and choice with analog electronics > running on 5V rather then 3.3V. >I see that a bit, but most new parts are 3.3V (or have separate supplies for the interface and the analogue parts).> Summarizing, in applications like industrial/automotive controllers, 5V > has its place. >What is really missing is a decent family of basic logic chips that work well with both 3.3V and 5V (and preferably with lower voltages too). With most logic chips, driving 5V inputs with 3.3V outputs will work - but it is outside their specifications for minimum voltage levels. So if you've got a 3.3V micro and you want to use a logic chip (say, a serial-in parallel-out shift register as an SPI port expander) to drive some FETs, you have to have a level shifter as well as the shift register. Alternatively, you have to power your shift register from something weird like 4.2 V.
Reply by ●March 17, 20132013-03-17
On 3/17/2013 1:31 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:> On 2013-03-17, Vladimir Vassilevsky <nospam@nowhere.com> wrote: >> On 3/17/2013 5:35 AM, Simon Clubley wrote: >>> Outside of the hobbyist ecosystem, what is the actual market size for >>> new, non-legacy, ICs with a maximum Vcc of ~5V ? >> >> There are few areas where 5V power is preferred: >> >> * Most of CAN transceivers require 5V. >> * Power electronics; i.e. high/low side switches, FET drivers etc. often >> require 5V. >> * There is a lot more flexibility and choice with analog electronics >> running on 5V rather then 3.3V. >> >> Summarizing, in applications like industrial/automotive controllers, 5V >> has its place. >> > > Thanks. Those are some interesting examples I had not thought about. > > With those examples in mind, I will now modify my original question to > instead ask only about ICs which would be used for mainly digital > signalling or interfacing purposes such as the SPI RAM IC that started > me thinking about this in the first place. :-)If you have to employ parts that need +5V, then it makes sense to run entire system from +5V. Rather then dealing with separate power supplies and level shifting issues. There are quite a few cases where +5V is preferred or required; so here is my point.
Reply by ●March 17, 20132013-03-17
On 3/17/2013 2:56 PM, David Brown wrote:> On 17/03/13 16:15, Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote: >> On 3/17/2013 5:35 AM, Simon Clubley wrote: >>> Outside of the hobbyist ecosystem, what is the actual market size for >>> new, non-legacy, ICs with a maximum Vcc of ~5V ? >> >> There are few areas where 5V power is preferred: >> >> * Most of CAN transceivers require 5V. > > We use 3.3V CAN transceivers, which are now very common. > >> * Power electronics; i.e. high/low side switches, FET drivers etc. often >> require 5V. > > That's the big one that I see. Lots of FETs/FET drivers, switches, > solid-state relays, etc., are 5V on the logic side. > >> * There is a lot more flexibility and choice with analog electronics >> running on 5V rather then 3.3V. >> > > I see that a bit, but most new parts are 3.3V (or have separate supplies > for the interface and the analogue parts). > >> Summarizing, in applications like industrial/automotive controllers, 5V >> has its place. >> > > > What is really missing is a decent family of basic logic chips that work > well with both 3.3V and 5V (and preferably with lower voltages too). > With most logic chips, driving 5V inputs with 3.3V outputs will work - > but it is outside their specifications for minimum voltage levels. So if > you've got a 3.3V micro and you want to use a logic chip (say, a > serial-in parallel-out shift register as an SPI port expander) to drive > some FETs, you have to have a level shifter as well as the shift > register. Alternatively, you have to power your shift register from > something weird like 4.2 V.The last time I looked at automotive devices, they were still common in 5V. Is that not true so much now? -- Rick
Reply by ●March 17, 20132013-03-17
Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> writes:> Outside of the hobbyist ecosystem, what is the actual market size for > new, non-legacy, ICs with a maximum Vcc of ~5V ?What about USB-powered gadgets?
Reply by ●March 18, 20132013-03-18
On 17/03/13 22:12, rickman wrote:> On 3/17/2013 2:56 PM, David Brown wrote: >> On 17/03/13 16:15, Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote: >>> On 3/17/2013 5:35 AM, Simon Clubley wrote: >>>> Outside of the hobbyist ecosystem, what is the actual market size for >>>> new, non-legacy, ICs with a maximum Vcc of ~5V ? >>> >>> There are few areas where 5V power is preferred: >>> >>> * Most of CAN transceivers require 5V. >> >> We use 3.3V CAN transceivers, which are now very common. >> >>> * Power electronics; i.e. high/low side switches, FET drivers etc. often >>> require 5V. >> >> That's the big one that I see. Lots of FETs/FET drivers, switches, >> solid-state relays, etc., are 5V on the logic side. >> >>> * There is a lot more flexibility and choice with analog electronics >>> running on 5V rather then 3.3V. >>> >> >> I see that a bit, but most new parts are 3.3V (or have separate supplies >> for the interface and the analogue parts). >> >>> Summarizing, in applications like industrial/automotive controllers, 5V >>> has its place. >>> >> >> >> What is really missing is a decent family of basic logic chips that work >> well with both 3.3V and 5V (and preferably with lower voltages too). >> With most logic chips, driving 5V inputs with 3.3V outputs will work - >> but it is outside their specifications for minimum voltage levels. So if >> you've got a 3.3V micro and you want to use a logic chip (say, a >> serial-in parallel-out shift register as an SPI port expander) to drive >> some FETs, you have to have a level shifter as well as the shift >> register. Alternatively, you have to power your shift register from >> something weird like 4.2 V. > > The last time I looked at automotive devices, they were still common in > 5V. Is that not true so much now? >There are plenty of automotive parts in 5V. The challenge is not the 5V parts in themselves, or the 3.3V parts - it is connecting them together in a compact and efficient way (i.e., without having to have lots of dedicated level converters). It is a pain that there are /no/ good logic families that run from 5V and are 3.3V tolerant (i.e., guaranteed to treat even low 3.3V inputs as "high"), and /no/ good 3.3V logic families with 5V tolerant inputs. There are many families that work well enough in practice - but "works during testing" is not good enough for many applications. Of course, if I'm wrong here then I would love to be corrected!
Reply by ●March 18, 20132013-03-18
In comp.arch.embedded, David Brown <david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> wrote:> > There are plenty of automotive parts in 5V. The challenge is not the 5V > parts in themselves, or the 3.3V parts - it is connecting them together > in a compact and efficient way (i.e., without having to have lots of > dedicated level converters). It is a pain that there are /no/ good > logic families that run from 5V and are 3.3V tolerant (i.e., guaranteed > to treat even low 3.3V inputs as "high"), and /no/ good 3.3V logic > families with 5V tolerant inputs. There are many families that work > well enough in practice - but "works during testing" is not good enough > for many applications. > > Of course, if I'm wrong here then I would love to be corrected!For 3.3V to 5V we often use 74HCT. I always check the datasheets, and I can't remember a case where the levels did not work out, even in the extreme temperature specs. The (NXP) 74HCT1G02 for example has a high input level of 2.0V over the -40C to +125C range. That even works with, for example, an Analog Devices BF522 at 3.0V VDDext which has a minimum high output of 2.4V. Should even work with VDDext = 2.25V with Voh=2.0V. Don't use the 'HC' family for this purpose of course, the levels are totally different. (NXP) 72HC1G02 @ 4.5V: Vih = 3.15V. -- Stef (remove caps, dashes and .invalid from e-mail address to reply by mail) 1: No code table for op: ++post
Reply by ●March 18, 20132013-03-18
rickman wrote:> On 3/17/2013 2:56 PM, David Brown wrote: > > On 17/03/13 16:15, Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote: > >> On 3/17/2013 5:35 AM, Simon Clubley wrote: > >>> Outside of the hobbyist ecosystem, what is the actual market size for > >>> new, non-legacy, ICs with a maximum Vcc of ~5V ? > >> > >> There are few areas where 5V power is preferred: > >> > >> * Most of CAN transceivers require 5V. > > > > We use 3.3V CAN transceivers, which are now very common. > > > >> * Power electronics; i.e. high/low side switches, FET drivers etc. often > >> require 5V. > > > > That's the big one that I see. Lots of FETs/FET drivers, switches, > > solid-state relays, etc., are 5V on the logic side. > > > >> * There is a lot more flexibility and choice with analog electronics > >> running on 5V rather then 3.3V. > >> > > > > I see that a bit, but most new parts are 3.3V (or have separate supplies > > for the interface and the analogue parts). > > > >> Summarizing, in applications like industrial/automotive controllers, 5V > >> has its place. > >> > > > > > > What is really missing is a decent family of basic logic chips that work > > well with both 3.3V and 5V (and preferably with lower voltages too). > > With most logic chips, driving 5V inputs with 3.3V outputs will work - > > but it is outside their specifications for minimum voltage levels. So if > > you've got a 3.3V micro and you want to use a logic chip (say, a > > serial-in parallel-out shift register as an SPI port expander) to drive > > some FETs, you have to have a level shifter as well as the shift > > register. Alternatively, you have to power your shift register from > > something weird like 4.2 V. > > The last time I looked at automotive devices, they were still common in > 5V. Is that not true so much now?5V in automotive is also an issue of noise tolerance being better at 5V. w..
