Market size of new, non-legacy, 5V ICs ?

Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> writes:

> Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> writes:
>> Outside of the hobbyist ecosystem, what is the actual market size for
>> new, non-legacy, ICs with a maximum Vcc of ~5V ?
>
> What about USB-powered gadgets?

Since the I/O voltage for USB is 3.3V it's not a contender, except for
5V regulators.

On 3/18/2013 3:46 AM, Stef wrote:

> For 3.3V to 5V we often use 74HCT. I always check the datasheets, and I
> can't remember a case where the levels did not work out, even in the
> extreme temperature specs.

You certainly can use HCT, and it would work for 3.3V to 5V conversion. 
However keep in mind that the quiescent current in "1" state is going to 
be about 1mA per gate.

Vladimir Vassilevsky
DSP and Mixed Signal Designs
www.abvolt.com

In article <E7CdnS9HBo4qVdvMnZ2dnUVZ8iCdnZ2d@lyse.net>, 
david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com says...
> 
> On 17/03/13 22:12, rickman wrote:
> > On 3/17/2013 2:56 PM, David Brown wrote:
> >> On 17/03/13 16:15, Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote:
> >>> On 3/17/2013 5:35 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> >>>> Outside of the hobbyist ecosystem, what is the actual market size for
> >>>> new, non-legacy, ICs with a maximum Vcc of ~5V ?
> >>>
> >>> There are few areas where 5V power is preferred:
> >>>
> >>> * Most of CAN transceivers require 5V.
> >>
> >> We use 3.3V CAN transceivers, which are now very common.
> >>
> >>> * Power electronics; i.e. high/low side switches, FET drivers etc. often
> >>> require 5V.
> >>
> >> That's the big one that I see. Lots of FETs/FET drivers, switches,
> >> solid-state relays, etc., are 5V on the logic side.
> >>
> >>> * There is a lot more flexibility and choice with analog electronics
> >>> running on 5V rather then 3.3V.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I see that a bit, but most new parts are 3.3V (or have separate supplies
> >> for the interface and the analogue parts).
> >>
> >>> Summarizing, in applications like industrial/automotive controllers, 5V
> >>> has its place.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> What is really missing is a decent family of basic logic chips that work
> >> well with both 3.3V and 5V (and preferably with lower voltages too).
> >> With most logic chips, driving 5V inputs with 3.3V outputs will work -
> >> but it is outside their specifications for minimum voltage levels. So if
> >> you've got a 3.3V micro and you want to use a logic chip (say, a
> >> serial-in parallel-out shift register as an SPI port expander) to drive
> >> some FETs, you have to have a level shifter as well as the shift
> >> register. Alternatively, you have to power your shift register from
> >> something weird like 4.2 V.
> > 
> > The last time I looked at automotive devices, they were still common in
> > 5V.  Is that not true so much now?
> > 
> 
> There are plenty of automotive parts in 5V.  The challenge is not the 5V
> parts in themselves, or the 3.3V parts - it is connecting them together
> in a compact and efficient way (i.e., without having to have lots of
> dedicated level converters).  It is a pain that there are /no/ good
> logic families that run from 5V and are 3.3V tolerant (i.e., guaranteed
> to treat even low 3.3V inputs as "high"), and /no/ good 3.3V logic
> families with 5V tolerant inputs.  There are many families that work
> well enough in practice - but "works during testing" is not good enough
> for many applications.
> 
> Of course, if I'm wrong here then I would love to be corrected!

Here you go:

http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/74/74LCX125.pdf

Quad buffer with 5V tolerant inputs and outputs when run
off 3.3V.  I think the other members of the family are
also tolerant of 5V inputs.

I used the single-gate versions of these quite often for
level shifting 5V inputs to match 3.3V-only logic

OTOH, finding  3.3V logic guaranteed to provide the 3.15V
minimum for 74HC logic is more difficult.  You might have to
go to the 74LS series in that case. It runs off 5V, but,
accepts any level above 2V as a high level input.
Whether you accept the 74LS series as a 'good' logic
family probably depends on whether you started building
logic circuits in this century or the last!  ;-)

One of the things I like about the STM32 MPUs is that the 
digital I/O is 5V tolerant.  For fairly slow and lightly
loaded output signals the pins go to very near 3.3V.  If
I'm in doubt, I guess I could activate the pullup resistor
on the I/O port to get a few more millivolts at the output.

Mark Borgerson

On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 19:56:03 +0100
David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> wrote:

> On 17/03/13 16:15, Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote:
> > On 3/17/2013 5:35 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> >> Outside of the hobbyist ecosystem, what is the actual market size for
> >> new, non-legacy, ICs with a maximum Vcc of ~5V ?
> >
> > There are few areas where 5V power is preferred:
> >
> > * Most of CAN transceivers require 5V.
> 
> We use 3.3V CAN transceivers, which are now very common.
> 
> > * Power electronics; i.e. high/low side switches, FET drivers etc. often
> > require 5V.
> 
> That's the big one that I see.  Lots of FETs/FET drivers, switches, 
> solid-state relays, etc., are 5V on the logic side.
> 
> > * There is a lot more flexibility and choice with analog electronics
> > running on 5V rather then 3.3V.
> >
> 
> I see that a bit, but most new parts are 3.3V (or have separate supplies 
> for the interface and the analogue parts).
> 
> > Summarizing, in applications like industrial/automotive controllers, 5V
> > has its place.
> >
> 
> 
> What is really missing is a decent family of basic logic chips that work 
> well with both 3.3V and 5V (and preferably with lower voltages too). 
> With most logic chips, driving 5V inputs with 3.3V outputs will work - 
> but it is outside their specifications for minimum voltage levels.  So 
> if you've got a 3.3V micro and you want to use a logic chip (say, a 
> serial-in parallel-out shift register as an SPI port expander) to drive 
> some FETs, you have to have a level shifter as well as the shift 
> register.  Alternatively, you have to power your shift register from 
> something weird like 4.2 V.
> 
> 

You mean like 74HCT, 74ACT, etc?


-- 
Rob Gaddi, Highland Technology -- www.highlandtechnology.com
Email address domain is currently out of order.  See above to fix.

On 2013-03-17, Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> writes:
>> Outside of the hobbyist ecosystem, what is the actual market size for
>> new, non-legacy, ICs with a maximum Vcc of ~5V ?
>
> What about USB-powered gadgets?

That's not as simple as you might think; just because the MCU at the heart
of the USB gadget works in a USB bus powered mode there is no guarantee
that the MCU itself supports or tolerates a 5V Vcc.

One example that does support 5V bus powered mode is the PIC18F14K50; it
has a internal 3.3V LDO voltage regulator to drop the 5V down to 3.3V.

The PIC32MX (in device mode) appears to be a far more interesting case but
note my power supply knowledge here is based purely on reading the PIC32
FRM and the datasheet of a USB capable PIC32MX part.

The PIC32MX has absolutely no support for been directly powered by a 5V
source and a quick look through the FRM and the DS didn't reveal any hints
for using a PIC32MX part in bus powered mode.

However, I also didn't see any reason why the PIC32MX part could not be
connected to the USB +5V line via a 3.3V LDO regulator, hence making the
part USB bus powered capable even though it doesn't support 5V directly.

BTW, when running in host mode instead of device mode, the PIC32MX
requires a external 5V source to power the USB +5V line; it cannot supply
the 5V itself directly.

Simon.

-- 
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world

On Sunday, March 17, 2013 10:35:28 PM UTC+12, Simon Clubley wrote:
> To my mind, it
> would be like Microchip, say, suddenly deciding to create a PIC32 range
> which runs at 5V.

If you think that is 'strange' then perhaps I should not mention 
the new Infieon, 32 bit XMC1000, that operates 1.8-5.5V ??

http://www.infineon.com/cms/en/corporate/press/news/releases/2013/INFATV201301-022.html

Or mention Fujistu, or Nuvoton, who also offer 5V, 32 bit parts ??


> They clearly would not do this unless there was a market for them, but
> I am just puzzled what that market is.

There are plenty of instances where Wide Vcc is smarter, and so will sell more.

 Direct Drive of Power MOSFETS, is a very common, widespread industrial requirement, and 5V-operate parts, can do that.
 Also common, is the need to read 5V signals from sensors 

 Plenty of 8 bit uC offer wide Vcc, so anyone pitching a 32 bit uC  will need to offer the same Vcc range.
 Some Vendors 'get this', others simply 'hope' designers will follow their hype.
(and some 32 bit uC are already EOL, the very ones claimed to be 8-bit-killers, at release....)


 A lot of new uC now, in both 8 and 32 bit, are wide Vcc, and this done on fine/shrink process, and using on-chip regulators.

 There was a brief time, when vendors put On-Chip-regulation in the 'Too hard' basket, but that Infineon part is 65nm, with a regulator.

 So there are a lot of reason to offer 5V parts, and very few excuses left, to NOT do this.  Expect to see more of this.

-jg

On 18/03/13 16:25, Mark Borgerson wrote:
> In article <E7CdnS9HBo4qVdvMnZ2dnUVZ8iCdnZ2d@lyse.net>, 
> david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com says...
>>
>> On 17/03/13 22:12, rickman wrote:
>>> On 3/17/2013 2:56 PM, David Brown wrote:
>>>> On 17/03/13 16:15, Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote:
>>>>> On 3/17/2013 5:35 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>>>> Outside of the hobbyist ecosystem, what is the actual market size for
>>>>>> new, non-legacy, ICs with a maximum Vcc of ~5V ?
>>>>>
>>>>> There are few areas where 5V power is preferred:
>>>>>
>>>>> * Most of CAN transceivers require 5V.
>>>>
>>>> We use 3.3V CAN transceivers, which are now very common.
>>>>
>>>>> * Power electronics; i.e. high/low side switches, FET drivers etc. often
>>>>> require 5V.
>>>>
>>>> That's the big one that I see. Lots of FETs/FET drivers, switches,
>>>> solid-state relays, etc., are 5V on the logic side.
>>>>
>>>>> * There is a lot more flexibility and choice with analog electronics
>>>>> running on 5V rather then 3.3V.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I see that a bit, but most new parts are 3.3V (or have separate supplies
>>>> for the interface and the analogue parts).
>>>>
>>>>> Summarizing, in applications like industrial/automotive controllers, 5V
>>>>> has its place.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What is really missing is a decent family of basic logic chips that work
>>>> well with both 3.3V and 5V (and preferably with lower voltages too).
>>>> With most logic chips, driving 5V inputs with 3.3V outputs will work -
>>>> but it is outside their specifications for minimum voltage levels. So if
>>>> you've got a 3.3V micro and you want to use a logic chip (say, a
>>>> serial-in parallel-out shift register as an SPI port expander) to drive
>>>> some FETs, you have to have a level shifter as well as the shift
>>>> register. Alternatively, you have to power your shift register from
>>>> something weird like 4.2 V.
>>>
>>> The last time I looked at automotive devices, they were still common in
>>> 5V.  Is that not true so much now?
>>>
>>
>> There are plenty of automotive parts in 5V.  The challenge is not the 5V
>> parts in themselves, or the 3.3V parts - it is connecting them together
>> in a compact and efficient way (i.e., without having to have lots of
>> dedicated level converters).  It is a pain that there are /no/ good
>> logic families that run from 5V and are 3.3V tolerant (i.e., guaranteed
>> to treat even low 3.3V inputs as "high"), and /no/ good 3.3V logic
>> families with 5V tolerant inputs.  There are many families that work
>> well enough in practice - but "works during testing" is not good enough
>> for many applications.
>>
>> Of course, if I'm wrong here then I would love to be corrected!
> 
> Here you go:
> 
> http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/74/74LCX125.pdf
> 
> Quad buffer with 5V tolerant inputs and outputs when run
> off 3.3V.  I think the other members of the family are
> also tolerant of 5V inputs.
> 
> I used the single-gate versions of these quite often for
> level shifting 5V inputs to match 3.3V-only logic
> 
> OTOH, finding  3.3V logic guaranteed to provide the 3.15V
> minimum for 74HC logic is more difficult.  You might have to
> go to the 74LS series in that case. It runs off 5V, but,
> accepts any level above 2V as a high level input.
> Whether you accept the 74LS series as a 'good' logic
> family probably depends on whether you started building
> logic circuits in this century or the last!  ;-)
> 
> One of the things I like about the STM32 MPUs is that the 
> digital I/O is 5V tolerant.  For fairly slow and lightly
> loaded output signals the pins go to very near 3.3V.  If
> I'm in doubt, I guess I could activate the pullup resistor
> on the I/O port to get a few more millivolts at the output.
> 
> Mark Borgerson
> 
> 

There are various combinations of logic families that can work together
for level conversion - such as the ones you mention here, and the 74HCT
mentioned by others.  But in each case, this only covers some types of
chips.  I found I could get parts that had the voltage levels and
tolerances I wanted /or/ the functionality I wanted - but not both.  In
once case I wanted a serial-in, parallel-out latch.  The 74HC595 is
functionally ideal - except that at 5V supply it needs 3.5V for input
high.  A 74HCT595 would be possible, but it doesn't exist.

<rant>

Would it really be so hard for a manufacturer to have a series that
supports a range of VCC (say 2V to 6V, like HC), with TTL-compatible
inputs (<= 0.8V is low, >= 2.0V is high, like HCT) and near rail-to-rail
outputs (obviously for a limited current range - like HC), and with a
fairly complete range of the 74 series?  All that would be needed is a
few extra transistors on the inputs of an HC device, costing
microdollars per chip at today's prices.  The latency would marginally
increase, as would the power consumption, but only slightly - and the
devices would cover the great majority of common use cases.  Most other
logic families could be dropped, except for extremes of low voltage,
high speed, or low power.  It would be a great saving for the
manufacturer, the distributors, purchasers and developers.

</rant>

On 03/19/2013 09:56 AM, David Brown wrote:

> once case I wanted a serial-in, parallel-out latch.  The 74HC595 is
> functionally ideal - except that at 5V supply it needs 3.5V for input
> high.  A 74HCT595 would be possible, but it doesn't exist.

Here you go. 74HCT595. Vih <= 2.0V.

http://www.nxp.com/documents/data_sheet/74HC_HCT595.pdf

Arlet Ottens <usenet+5@c-scape.nl> writes:

> On 03/19/2013 09:56 AM, David Brown wrote:
>
>> once case I wanted a serial-in, parallel-out latch.  The 74HC595 is
>> functionally ideal - except that at 5V supply it needs 3.5V for input
>> high.  A 74HCT595 would be possible, but it doesn't exist.
>
> Here you go. 74HCT595. Vih <= 2.0V.
>
> http://www.nxp.com/documents/data_sheet/74HC_HCT595.pdf

Yes, don't seem to be too hard to get hold of!

<http://octopart.com/partsearch#search/requestData&q=74hct595>

Perhaps David was thinking of something else...


-- 

John Devereux

On 19/03/13 10:25, John Devereux wrote:
> Arlet Ottens <usenet+5@c-scape.nl> writes:
> 
>> On 03/19/2013 09:56 AM, David Brown wrote:
>>
>>> once case I wanted a serial-in, parallel-out latch.  The 74HC595 is
>>> functionally ideal - except that at 5V supply it needs 3.5V for input
>>> high.  A 74HCT595 would be possible, but it doesn't exist.
>>
>> Here you go. 74HCT595. Vih <= 2.0V.
>>
>> http://www.nxp.com/documents/data_sheet/74HC_HCT595.pdf
> 
> Yes, don't seem to be too hard to get hold of!
> 
> <http://octopart.com/partsearch#search/requestData&q=74hct595>
> 
> Perhaps David was thinking of something else...
> 

It's certainly possible that I was thinking about something else - it
was a while ago when I worked on the project that needed such chips.
(And of course it is too late now - the board was completed using level
converters as well as the logic chips.)

However, looking at the nxp data sheet I see that the HCT version needs
3.15V at 4.5V - and presumably therefore 3.5V and 5V for its inputs.  In
other words, it is useless for driving with 3.3V supplies.  It seems
that in this respect nxp's HCT family are different from TI's HCT family
(which is the ones I originally looked at).

Maybe there is a 74x595 out there somewhere which will work properly
from 3.3V inputs and 5V supplies, but I still haven't found it.