Hi: I'm looking for DSP-like microcontrollers and microcontroller-like DSPs. So far I am interested in TMS320F2812, but it is a bit heavy handed for some applications I would be considering. I had decided to move away from Microchip a few years ago and instead standardize on AVR for my 8-bit MCU of choice, mainly because of avr-gcc and the AVR architecture is much more pleasant to work with. My applications are ease of use and tool cost conscious more than anything, so I don't mind the slightly higher price of AVRs. But I will be needing some DSP capabilities. I would like to find a CPU that gives reasonable performance of 30-150MIPS with lots of MCU peripherals. The dsPIC and the TI are the ones I am aware of so far. I spent some time lately looking at the dsPIC again, and despite my wanting to avoid Microchip and their klunky architectures, I have to admit this chip seems dsPICable, er, I mean pretty nice. But the darned thing appears to be vaporware! Anyway, I will be attending a 1-day workshop with TI on the TMS320F2812, and getting a development kit. As for Microchip, I guess we'll just have to wait. Any other recommendations for MCU-like DSPs and DSP-like MCUs? I don't really like the idea of going to Motorola, since I have heard their tools are a headache (needing to but a different tool for each chip) and I never know if their chips are going to be discontinued tomorrow. Other than those objections, I do know they have some nice DSP/controllers. Another idea I suppose for the 30-150 MIPS range might be ARM, since I know it has some MACs and stuff like that. Haven't really researched ARM much yet. I sure hope the market drives the production of more of these hybrid DSP/MCU type chips in the future. Thanks for comments. Good day! -- _____________________ Christopher R. Carlen crobc@earthlink.net Suse 8.1 Linux 2.4.19
MCU/DSP dsPIC Alternatives?
Started by ●March 25, 2004
Reply by ●March 25, 20042004-03-25
Chris Carlen wrote:> Hi: > > I'm looking for DSP-like microcontrollers and microcontroller-like DSPs. > > So far I am interested in TMS320F2812, but it is a bit heavy handed for > some applications I would be considering.They also have smaller members of this family, 2808/2806/2801 that look less 'heavy handed'...> > I had decided to move away from Microchip a few years ago and instead > standardize on AVR for my 8-bit MCU of choice, mainly because of avr-gcc > and the AVR architecture is much more pleasant to work with. My > applications are ease of use and tool cost conscious more than anything, > so I don't mind the slightly higher price of AVRs. > > But I will be needing some DSP capabilities. I would like to find a CPU > that gives reasonable performance of 30-150MIPS with lots of MCU > peripherals. The dsPIC and the TI are the ones I am aware of so far.Look also at the Philips ARM families, 60MHz speeds http://www.philipssemiconductors.com/markets/mms/products/microcontrollers/key_solutions/32bit/index.html The TI DSPs and Philips ARMs are both 32 bit, so the dsPIC is looking like it has missed the gate - when they first talked about it 2+ years ago now, it was a reasonable step forward, but their delays means the leading edge has rather moved on.... Certainly, many users are now going to simply skip 16 bit devices....> > I spent some time lately looking at the dsPIC again, and despite my > wanting to avoid Microchip and their klunky architectures, I have to > admit this chip seems dsPICable, er, I mean pretty nice. But the darned > thing appears to be vaporware! > > Anyway, I will be attending a 1-day workshop with TI on the TMS320F2812, > and getting a development kit.good time to ask about the other, smaller 28xx family members.> > As for Microchip, I guess we'll just have to wait. > > Any other recommendations for MCU-like DSPs and DSP-like MCUs? I don't > really like the idea of going to Motorola, since I have heard their > tools are a headache (needing to but a different tool for each chip) and > I never know if their chips are going to be discontinued tomorrow. Other > than those objections, I do know they have some nice DSP/controllers. > > Another idea I suppose for the 30-150 MIPS range might be ARM, since I > know it has some MACs and stuff like that. Haven't really researched > ARM much yet.See above. ARM will be more multi-sourced, but below the raw power of the TI DSPs. Your best path is probably to get some tool chains, and cut some real code to see.> > I sure hope the market drives the production of more of these hybrid > DSP/MCU type chips in the future.The DSP vendors seem a little uncertain how to pitch to the general microcontroller markets. Motorola and TI and Philips all have fast FLASH solutions, whilst ADI seem to have chosen RAM based devices and de-emphasised their flash lineups. -jg
Reply by ●March 25, 20042004-03-25
I am not at all clear about what you are looking for. When you say the 2812 is "heavy handed" what does that mean in engineering terms? Is is too power hungry, too complex to program, too large physically or just too expensive? I also don't know what you are looking for in the way of DSP capabilities. Normally a DSP is designed to facilitate sum of products or FFT calculations. Is this what you are looking for? Running at 30-150 MIPS does not require DSP features. DSPs normally are pipelined to increase clock speed, have simultaneous multiply and add (MAC) and provide a high memory bandwidth to allow the MAC to run at full speed without waiting for memory. I wish I had a better memory, several of the Asian companies have MCUs that provide DSP like instructions for MAC operations, but I can't think of which ones. Motorola has combined MCU and DSP cores on a common chip. What types of MCU peripherals are you looking for? Chris Carlen wrote:> > Hi: > > I'm looking for DSP-like microcontrollers and microcontroller-like DSPs. > > So far I am interested in TMS320F2812, but it is a bit heavy handed for > some applications I would be considering. > > I had decided to move away from Microchip a few years ago and instead > standardize on AVR for my 8-bit MCU of choice, mainly because of avr-gcc > and the AVR architecture is much more pleasant to work with. My > applications are ease of use and tool cost conscious more than anything, > so I don't mind the slightly higher price of AVRs. > > But I will be needing some DSP capabilities. I would like to find a CPU > that gives reasonable performance of 30-150MIPS with lots of MCU > peripherals. The dsPIC and the TI are the ones I am aware of so far. > > I spent some time lately looking at the dsPIC again, and despite my > wanting to avoid Microchip and their klunky architectures, I have to > admit this chip seems dsPICable, er, I mean pretty nice. But the darned > thing appears to be vaporware! > > Anyway, I will be attending a 1-day workshop with TI on the TMS320F2812, > and getting a development kit. > > As for Microchip, I guess we'll just have to wait. > > Any other recommendations for MCU-like DSPs and DSP-like MCUs? I don't > really like the idea of going to Motorola, since I have heard their > tools are a headache (needing to but a different tool for each chip) and > I never know if their chips are going to be discontinued tomorrow. > Other than those objections, I do know they have some nice DSP/controllers. > > Another idea I suppose for the 30-150 MIPS range might be ARM, since I > know it has some MACs and stuff like that. Haven't really researched > ARM much yet. > > I sure hope the market drives the production of more of these hybrid > DSP/MCU type chips in the future. > > Thanks for comments. > > Good day! > > -- > _____________________ > Christopher R. Carlen > crobc@earthlink.net > Suse 8.1 Linux 2.4.19-- Rick "rickman" Collins rick.collins@XYarius.com Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY removed. Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com 4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX
Reply by ●March 25, 20042004-03-25
"Chris Carlen" <crobc@BOGUS_FIELD.earthlink.net> wrote in message news:c3tmh902tn1@enews2.newsguy.com...> Hi: > > I'm looking for DSP-like microcontrollers and microcontroller-like DSPs. >Yoiu can get ARM chips with built in DSP. The Magic DSP core on the Atmel Diopsys chip will give you a GigaFlop or so when it comes out. The ARM7 core is on the chip mainly there to admire its bigger companion :-). The AT76C221 gives you like 40-60 MIPS using the on chip Oak DSP. -- Best Regards Ulf at atmel dot com These comments are intended to be my own opinion and they may, or may not be shared by my employer, Atmel Sweden.
Reply by ●March 25, 20042004-03-25
The Motorola DSP56F80x series works good. But maybe it is a little slow at 80mhz for you. Plus it's only a 16 bit DSP chip. I like the ones from www.newmicros.com as they come with ISOMAX(tm) and FORTH built in for ease of use. It's fun to not have to use a JTAG programmer unless you need it. But there is also Metrowerks Code warrior, an assembler and a free Small C compiler too. I think someone else has a C compiler too for it. I like the chip for all the timers that it has and all the PWM channels you can get going for motion control etc. "Chris Carlen" <crobc@BOGUS_FIELD.earthlink.net> wrote in message news:c3tmh902tn1@enews2.newsguy.com...> Hi: > > I'm looking for DSP-like microcontrollers and microcontroller-like DSPs. > > So far I am interested in TMS320F2812, but it is a bit heavy handed for > some applications I would be considering. > > I had decided to move away from Microchip a few years ago and instead > standardize on AVR for my 8-bit MCU of choice, mainly because of avr-gcc > and the AVR architecture is much more pleasant to work with. My > applications are ease of use and tool cost conscious more than anything, > so I don't mind the slightly higher price of AVRs. > > But I will be needing some DSP capabilities. I would like to find a CPU > that gives reasonable performance of 30-150MIPS with lots of MCU > peripherals. The dsPIC and the TI are the ones I am aware of so far. > > I spent some time lately looking at the dsPIC again, and despite my > wanting to avoid Microchip and their klunky architectures, I have to > admit this chip seems dsPICable, er, I mean pretty nice. But the darned > thing appears to be vaporware! > > Anyway, I will be attending a 1-day workshop with TI on the TMS320F2812, > and getting a development kit. > > As for Microchip, I guess we'll just have to wait. > > Any other recommendations for MCU-like DSPs and DSP-like MCUs? I don't > really like the idea of going to Motorola, since I have heard their > tools are a headache (needing to but a different tool for each chip) and > I never know if their chips are going to be discontinued tomorrow. > Other than those objections, I do know they have some niceDSP/controllers.> > Another idea I suppose for the 30-150 MIPS range might be ARM, since I > know it has some MACs and stuff like that. Haven't really researched > ARM much yet. > > I sure hope the market drives the production of more of these hybrid > DSP/MCU type chips in the future. > > Thanks for comments. > > > Good day! > > > > -- > _____________________ > Christopher R. Carlen > crobc@earthlink.net > Suse 8.1 Linux 2.4.19 >
Reply by ●March 25, 20042004-03-25
On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:17:44 -0800, Chris Carlen <crobc@BOGUS_FIELD.earthlink.net> wrote in comp.arch.embedded:> Hi: > > I'm looking for DSP-like microcontrollers and microcontroller-like DSPs. > > So far I am interested in TMS320F2812, but it is a bit heavy handed for > some applications I would be considering. > > I had decided to move away from Microchip a few years ago and instead > standardize on AVR for my 8-bit MCU of choice, mainly because of avr-gcc > and the AVR architecture is much more pleasant to work with. My > applications are ease of use and tool cost conscious more than anything, > so I don't mind the slightly higher price of AVRs. > > But I will be needing some DSP capabilities. I would like to find a CPU > that gives reasonable performance of 30-150MIPS with lots of MCU > peripherals. The dsPIC and the TI are the ones I am aware of so far. > > I spent some time lately looking at the dsPIC again, and despite my > wanting to avoid Microchip and their klunky architectures, I have to > admit this chip seems dsPICable, er, I mean pretty nice. But the darned > thing appears to be vaporware! > > Anyway, I will be attending a 1-day workshop with TI on the TMS320F2812, > and getting a development kit. > > As for Microchip, I guess we'll just have to wait. > > Any other recommendations for MCU-like DSPs and DSP-like MCUs? I don't > really like the idea of going to Motorola, since I have heard their > tools are a headache (needing to but a different tool for each chip) and > I never know if their chips are going to be discontinued tomorrow. > Other than those objections, I do know they have some nice DSP/controllers. > > Another idea I suppose for the 30-150 MIPS range might be ARM, since I > know it has some MACs and stuff like that. Haven't really researched > ARM much yet. > > I sure hope the market drives the production of more of these hybrid > DSP/MCU type chips in the future. > > Thanks for comments. > > > Good day!I can't speak for many of the others, but we are developing a few boards with the TI 2812 right now. TI did a really good job taking the very traditional DSP instruction set of their 24xx series and not just extending it, but turning it into pretty good 16/32 bit RISC implementation. Unlike most DSPs, the instruction set is very friendly to general purpose coding, and the Code Composer Studio version for the 28xx generates excellent code for it. Just as an example, the 24xx parts had a bank of 16-bit auxiliary register file, AR0 through AR7. They were very awkward to use in that family, as you needed to set the ARP (Auxiliary Register Pointer register) to specify the register you wanted to access, then you could access it. In the 28xx family, they not only extended the auxiliary registers to 32 bits (or they can still be used as 16 bits), but they made them directly addressable. When you run the chip in its native 28xx mode, the ARP is a useless and unneeded appendix, only there if you want to run code from the older processors in 24xx execution mode. The only "gotcha" that any reasonably experienced programmer would need to be aware of when writing C or C++ code for these parts is the lack of an 8-bit data type. The character types all have 16 bits. -- Jack Klein Home: http://JK-Technology.Com FAQs for comp.lang.c http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html comp.lang.c++ http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/ alt.comp.lang.learn.c-c++ http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~ajo/docs/FAQ-acllc.html
Reply by ●March 25, 20042004-03-25
Chris Carlen wrote: [stuff] Thanks for the feedback folks. -- _____________________ Christopher R. Carlen crobc@earthlink.net Suse 8.1 Linux 2.4.19
Reply by ●March 26, 20042004-03-26
I'm still waiting for my first dsPIC samples :) I know that TI has a good uC/DSP with quadrature decoders en CAN interface. Don't find the partnummer right away.> Thanks for the feedback folks.
Reply by ●March 26, 20042004-03-26
Jim Granville wrote: <snip>>> But I will be needing some DSP capabilities. I would like to find a >> CPU that gives reasonable performance of 30-150MIPS with lots of MCU >> peripherals. The dsPIC and the TI are the ones I am aware of so far. > > > Look also at the Philips ARM families, 60MHz speeds > http://www.philipssemiconductors.com/markets/mms/products/microcontrollers/key_solutions/32bit/index.html > > > The TI DSPs and Philips ARMs are both 32 bit, so the dsPIC is looking > like it has missed the gate - when they first talked about it 2+ years > ago now, it was a reasonable step forward, but their delays means the > leading edge has rather moved on.... > Certainly, many users are now going to simply skip 16 bit devices....<snip>> > The DSP vendors seem a little uncertain how to pitch to the general > microcontroller markets. Motorola and TI and Philips all have fast > FLASH solutions, whilst ADI seem to have chosen RAM based devices > and de-emphasised their flash lineups.A little more on these comments - I see ADI are about to unveil a ADuC7xxx (ARM7/TAG Debug) Microconverter family, in 6mm x 6mm packages. That could explain their FLASH DSP withdrawal, and focus on the SRAM DSP devices in the hundreds of MHz region. Seems they have ARM to cover the MCU / Sub 100MHz region, where it is going to be an easier sell. Their present Microconverters are 16/24 Bit ADC, and with > 10MIPS reduced clock 80C51 FLASH cores. -jg
Reply by ●March 26, 20042004-03-26
Jim Granville wrote:> Jim Granville wrote: >> The DSP vendors seem a little uncertain how to pitch to the general >> microcontroller markets. Motorola and TI and Philips all have fast >> FLASH solutions, whilst ADI seem to have chosen RAM based devices >> and de-emphasised their flash lineups.This lack of flash DSP microcontroller lineup for ADI is pushing me strongly toward TI.> A little more on these comments - I see ADI are about to unveil a > ADuC7xxx (ARM7/TAG Debug) Microconverter family, in 6mm x 6mm packages.This could be real interesting.> That could explain their FLASH DSP withdrawal, and focus on the SRAM > DSP devices in the hundreds of MHz region. > Seems they have ARM to cover the MCU / Sub 100MHz region, where it > is going to be an easier sell. Their present Microconverters are > 16/24 Bit ADC, and with > 10MIPS reduced clock 80C51 FLASH cores.8051, blech. I mean, I know 8051 is all over, but as a developer of low volume (usually one-off) scientific instruments, I'd rather stick with modern cores. Thanks for the input. Good day! -- ____________________________________ Christopher R. Carlen Principal Laser/Optical Technologist Sandia National Laboratories CA USA crcarle@sandia.gov