Tone Deafness

On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 08:30:20 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
<tomd_u1@verizon.net.invalid> wrote:

>
>Tim Wescott wrote:
>> Like a good percentage of human males, I'm partially color blind to
>> green and red.  In my case, it's enough that I can't tell the
>> difference between a green or a red LED -- so a piece of equipment
>> that depends on the operator being able to see the color of a
>> bi-color LED is totally useless to me.
>>
>> Needless to say, this is irritating.
>>
>> Does anyone on the group know how many people are really, truly tone
>> deaf?  I don't just mean unable to hear when they're playing out of
>> tune, but people who are unable to tell the difference between a
>> "beep" and a "boop" when it's coming out of a piece of electronic
>> equipment?
>>
>> I'm thinking of communicating status via a beeper, and for obvious
>> reasons I don't want to do the same "bicolor LED" crap to someone,
>> only with sound.
>
>Everyone can tell beep-beep from beep.
>
>My car is programmed to wait until it is going pretty fast, and then sound 
>GONG-GONG-GONG (yeah, 3 times and loud) to make the driver jump.  "Oh, no. 
>Something serious."  The info display gives details.  "Washer fluid low."

Even better is my car.  When it hits around an eighth of a tank, it
'stutters', i.e. it reduces the throttle for a few moments, so that
you are aware that you are getting low on gas, but are not on reserve
yet. It is fun enough when you are just cruising down the road to
suddenly start slowing down for no apparent reason, but if you happen
to be accellerating, say from a stop at a red light, it will actually
kill the engine!  Real fun to find your self stopping dead in the
middle of a busy intersection trying to get your car to start again
(What?  Did you remember you need to be in Park to start the car?)
while cars going the other way are zipping around you...

On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 15:48:03 -0700, the renowned Charlie E.
<edmondson@ieee.org> wrote:

>On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 08:30:20 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
><tomd_u1@verizon.net.invalid> wrote:
>
>>
>>Tim Wescott wrote:
>>> Like a good percentage of human males, I'm partially color blind to
>>> green and red.  In my case, it's enough that I can't tell the
>>> difference between a green or a red LED -- so a piece of equipment
>>> that depends on the operator being able to see the color of a
>>> bi-color LED is totally useless to me.
>>>
>>> Needless to say, this is irritating.
>>>
>>> Does anyone on the group know how many people are really, truly tone
>>> deaf?  I don't just mean unable to hear when they're playing out of
>>> tune, but people who are unable to tell the difference between a
>>> "beep" and a "boop" when it's coming out of a piece of electronic
>>> equipment?
>>>
>>> I'm thinking of communicating status via a beeper, and for obvious
>>> reasons I don't want to do the same "bicolor LED" crap to someone,
>>> only with sound.
>>
>>Everyone can tell beep-beep from beep.
>>
>>My car is programmed to wait until it is going pretty fast, and then sound 
>>GONG-GONG-GONG (yeah, 3 times and loud) to make the driver jump.  "Oh, no. 
>>Something serious."  The info display gives details.  "Washer fluid low."
>
>Even better is my car.  When it hits around an eighth of a tank, it
>'stutters', i.e. it reduces the throttle for a few moments, so that
>you are aware that you are getting low on gas, but are not on reserve
>yet. It is fun enough when you are just cruising down the road to
>suddenly start slowing down for no apparent reason, but if you happen
>to be accellerating, say from a stop at a red light, it will actually
>kill the engine!  Real fun to find your self stopping dead in the
>middle of a busy intersection trying to get your car to start again
>(What?  Did you remember you need to be in Park to start the car?)
>while cars going the other way are zipping around you...

What make has this lovely bit of firmware? 

Many seem to just quit, no warning, presumably to protect the
injectors from clogging due to crud at the bottom of the tank. 


Best regards, 
Spehro Pefhany
-- 
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

"Tim Williams"  wrote in message news:kuhk4i$etj$1@dont-email.me...

> I probably have the exact times wrong, but the grouped pattern is
> clear and pretty handy.  Unary gets tiresome after a while, so if
> you need status faster than it blinks, you'll need a different method.

Morse code...

Paul

On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 11:16:30 -0700, Don Y wrote:

> Hi Martin,
> 
> On 8/15/2013 9:29 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
> 
>> Also be careful how annoying you make the sound - aircraft cockpit
>> sounders have it about right to grab attention but not paralyse the
>> crew into inaction or worse still forcing them to look up how to
>> disable the wretched alarm so that they can hear themselves think.
> 
> The character of the sound can be changed to suit its intent. E.g., "you
> have a phone call" can be far less insistent than "the house is on
> fire".  "System operational" more subtle than "Oh, Crap!  Something's
> fried!".
> 
> I've designed products that played a gentle, unobtrusive little tune
> after POST as an indication that they were ready to operate and all
> diagnostics had passed successfully.  Yet, would "blow raspberries" if
> something had failed in the test.  People (users) can become accustomed
> to a pleasant little annunciator (and learn to *miss* it if they fail to
> hear it as expected).  And, similarly, *alarmed* when confronted with
> some discordant mess!
> 
> [Trick is making it *subtle* so it doesn't become annoying -- like *all*
> of the Windows sign-on "melodies"!]
> 
>> The latter was apparently the fate of the unfortunate Three Mile Island
>> operators who were faced with multiple failure alarms and klaxons going
>> off left right and centre. They were well aware they had big trouble
>> and didn't need to spend all that extra time consulting manuals and
>> fighting the instrumentation to get the alarm sounders cancelled.
> 
> Experimenting with "audio displays" (i.e., where you *want* to use audio
> as the primary communication medium), I've pretty much concluded that a
> "normal person" can handle three audio channels concurrently -- provided
> they have different types of content.
> 
> We're all used to dealing with "background noise".  Whether it is
> chatter of colleagues, guests at a party or background music, etc.
> 
> On top of this, we can *focus* (consciously!) on a specific audio
> interchange:  a conversation with another party, the sound from a TV
> program, etc.
> 
> Finally, we can tolerate *terse* (!) interruptions/annunciators that are
> *intended* to distract us (even if we would prefer NOT to be
> distracted).   A ringing doorbell/phone, a kid wanting to "go to Tommy's
> house", an item crashing to the floor, etc.
> 
> The "interruption" channel tries to "steal our focus" (i.e., become the
> "foreground channel" that we are actively engaged with).  If we accept
> this altered focus, we relegate the previous foreground/focus channel to
> another level of "background" where it may disappear in the noise, etc.
> 
> The problem seems to be when our attention is *tugged* in different
> directions simultaneously -- or nearly simultaneously.  E.g., the phone
> ringing coincident with a dish falling onto the floor.  At these times,
> background and foreground seem to fall from consideration as we try to
> sort out everything that is happening "at once".
> 
> Managing this "interruptions" channel is then the primary design issue. 
> I.e., if you've already signaled a *fire*, it's probably not wise to try
> to bother the listener with a notification that "the phone is ringing"! 
> (that will just be a distraction and lead to "overload")
> 
> Unfortunately, there don't seem to be many (any?) hard and fast rules
> regarding how frequent "events" can enter this channel. And, the ability
> of a user/listener to actively manage that event space seems to vary
> over time, activity, age, etc.
> 
> [I have a friend who can't pick black marbles out of a bag of mixed
> black and white marbles if you talk to him while he is performing this
> (mindless?) task!  Other folks can't tell you which relative direction
> an alarm was sounded while doing any sort of task that requires more
> than the slightest concentration.]
> 
> <shrug>

Actually there is more than one document.  I recommned starting with mil-
std-1472.  There are also nice IBM documents on Commom User Interface 
standrds that are quite useful.

Standards is just one of the things i do usefully well.

?-)

Hi Joseph,

On 8/15/2013 7:56 PM, josephkk wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 11:16:30 -0700, Don Y wrote:

[audio displays]

>> Managing this "interruptions" channel is then the primary design issue.
>> I.e., if you've already signaled a *fire*, it's probably not wise to try
>> to bother the listener with a notification that "the phone is ringing"!
>> (that will just be a distraction and lead to "overload")
>>
>> Unfortunately, there don't seem to be many (any?) hard and fast rules
>> regarding how frequent "events" can enter this channel. And, the ability
>> of a user/listener to actively manage that event space seems to vary
>> over time, activity, age, etc.
>>
>> [I have a friend who can't pick black marbles out of a bag of mixed
>> black and white marbles if you talk to him while he is performing this
>> (mindless?) task!  Other folks can't tell you which relative direction
>> an alarm was sounded while doing any sort of task that requires more
>> than the slightest concentration.]
>>
>> <shrug>
>
> Actually there is more than one document.  I recommned starting with mil-
> std-1472.  There are also nice IBM documents on Commom User Interface
> standrds that are quite useful.

The problem is these aren't designed with the entire population
in mind.  E.g., a fighter pilot in combat is far more focused (and
motivated!  :> ) than a 70 year old retiree with failing hearing,
vision, attention, etc.  Or, someone with a hearing impairment...

I've canvassed lots of research papers trying to sort out how
these sorts of things affect "real people".  And, coerced different
people to be guinea pigs as I tested out various approaches.  Not
very scientific and no "hard and fast rules".  E.g., how often
can a person be "interrupted"?  How far apart in space can those
cues be sited?  How do you manage the inevitable "overload"?

But, it brought me to the "three layer" model which also seems
intuitive (and, very easy for most people to relate to -- as they
ultimately will have to configure it!)

> Standards is just one of the things i do usefully well.

I'll chase it down.  Thanks!

In article <mdmq091q09adj9jvhguto1kapt3fmfvn94@4ax.com>, 
edmondson@ieee.org says...
> 
> On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 08:30:20 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
> <tomd_u1@verizon.net.invalid> wrote:
> 
> >
> >Tim Wescott wrote:
> >> Like a good percentage of human males, I'm partially color blind to
> >> green and red.  In my case, it's enough that I can't tell the
> >> difference between a green or a red LED -- so a piece of equipment
> >> that depends on the operator being able to see the color of a
> >> bi-color LED is totally useless to me.
> >>
> >> Needless to say, this is irritating.
> >>
> >> Does anyone on the group know how many people are really, truly tone
> >> deaf?  I don't just mean unable to hear when they're playing out of
> >> tune, but people who are unable to tell the difference between a
> >> "beep" and a "boop" when it's coming out of a piece of electronic
> >> equipment?
> >>
> >> I'm thinking of communicating status via a beeper, and for obvious
> >> reasons I don't want to do the same "bicolor LED" crap to someone,
> >> only with sound.
> >
> >Everyone can tell beep-beep from beep.
> >
> >My car is programmed to wait until it is going pretty fast, and then sound 
> >GONG-GONG-GONG (yeah, 3 times and loud) to make the driver jump.  "Oh, no. 
> >Something serious."  The info display gives details.  "Washer fluid low."
> 
> Even better is my car.  When it hits around an eighth of a tank, it
> 'stutters', i.e. it reduces the throttle for a few moments, so that
> you are aware that you are getting low on gas, but are not on reserve
> yet. It is fun enough when you are just cruising down the road to
> suddenly start slowing down for no apparent reason, but if you happen
> to be accellerating, say from a stop at a red light, it will actually
> kill the engine!  Real fun to find your self stopping dead in the
> middle of a busy intersection trying to get your car to start again
> (What?  Did you remember you need to be in Park to start the car?)
> while cars going the other way are zipping around you...

My favorite is a feature on Ford vehicles. You can speed limit the car. 
I found this out when I rented a Ford Focus from ZipCar. I'm a left 
lane, heavy footed driver and so I punched the accelerator. It limits at 
80MPH and it warns you as it gets toward that limit. 

In comp.arch.embedded,
Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 15:48:03 -0700, the renowned Charlie E.
><edmondson@ieee.org> wrote:
>>
>>Even better is my car.  When it hits around an eighth of a tank, it
>>'stutters', i.e. it reduces the throttle for a few moments, so that
>>you are aware that you are getting low on gas, but are not on reserve
>>yet. It is fun enough when you are just cruising down the road to
>>suddenly start slowing down for no apparent reason, but if you happen
>>to be accellerating, say from a stop at a red light, it will actually
>>kill the engine!  Real fun to find your self stopping dead in the
>>middle of a busy intersection trying to get your car to start again
>>(What?  Did you remember you need to be in Park to start the car?)
>>while cars going the other way are zipping around you...
>
> What make has this lovely bit of firmware? 
>
> Many seem to just quit, no warning, presumably to protect the
> injectors from clogging due to crud at the bottom of the tank. 

Many just quit from a lack of fuel. ;-)

But if they quit before the tank is completely empty, that would at best
protect from sucking op crud that floats on top of the fuel. The intake
pipe is always at the bottom of the tank, so crud from the bottom will
also get sucked in with a full tank. Luckily, most have an intake filter.


-- 
Stef    (remove caps, dashes and .invalid from e-mail address to reply by mail)

Reading is to the mind what exercise is to the body.

On 15/08/2013 23:48, Charlie E. wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 08:30:20 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
> <tomd_u1@verizon.net.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Everyone can tell beep-beep from beep.

Only if they catch the first beep.
Single tone vs modulated tone is better and for long enough to be clear.
>>
>> My car is programmed to wait until it is going pretty fast, and then sound
>> GONG-GONG-GONG (yeah, 3 times and loud) to make the driver jump.  "Oh, no.
>> Something serious."  The info display gives details.  "Washer fluid low."

Mine will do that for frost alert which seems quite reasonable to me.
Not sure what it does for low oil warning yet - this is the first car I 
have had with electronic only indication and no physical dip stick.

> Even better is my car.  When it hits around an eighth of a tank, it
> 'stutters', i.e. it reduces the throttle for a few moments, so that
> you are aware that you are getting low on gas, but are not on reserve
> yet. It is fun enough when you are just cruising down the road to
> suddenly start slowing down for no apparent reason, but if you happen

That is scary. What model of car has such an insane behaviour?

Mine has a warning light that goes beep with 100 mile range remaining 
and will beep every time the car is started when range is below 100.

> to be accellerating, say from a stop at a red light, it will actually
> kill the engine!  Real fun to find your self stopping dead in the

How does that work? Engine management should never allow a modern car 
engine to stall on an automatic. My (manual clutch) car has smarts to 
switch the engine off when it is stationary at traffic lights.

> middle of a busy intersection trying to get your car to start again
> (What?  Did you remember you need to be in Park to start the car?)
> while cars going the other way are zipping around you...
>
I once had a weird immobiliser fault that did that to us in a busy 
intersection - nothing to do apart from get out and wait for a tow 
truck. The fault never recurred but failed unit was referred to the 
maker as the local repair guy couldn't do a satisfactory reset on it.

With no electrics you can't even put the hazard flashers on!

-- 
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 01:50:15 -0400, T <kd1s.nospam@cox.nospam.net>
wrote:

>In article <mdmq091q09adj9jvhguto1kapt3fmfvn94@4ax.com>, 
>edmondson@ieee.org says...
>> 
>> On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 08:30:20 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
>> <tomd_u1@verizon.net.invalid> wrote:
>> 
>> >
>> >Tim Wescott wrote:
>> >> Like a good percentage of human males, I'm partially color blind to
>> >> green and red.  In my case, it's enough that I can't tell the
>> >> difference between a green or a red LED -- so a piece of equipment
>> >> that depends on the operator being able to see the color of a
>> >> bi-color LED is totally useless to me.
>> >>
>> >> Needless to say, this is irritating.
>> >>
>> >> Does anyone on the group know how many people are really, truly tone
>> >> deaf?  I don't just mean unable to hear when they're playing out of
>> >> tune, but people who are unable to tell the difference between a
>> >> "beep" and a "boop" when it's coming out of a piece of electronic
>> >> equipment?
>> >>
>> >> I'm thinking of communicating status via a beeper, and for obvious
>> >> reasons I don't want to do the same "bicolor LED" crap to someone,
>> >> only with sound.
>> >
>> >Everyone can tell beep-beep from beep.
>> >
>> >My car is programmed to wait until it is going pretty fast, and then sound 
>> >GONG-GONG-GONG (yeah, 3 times and loud) to make the driver jump.  "Oh, no. 
>> >Something serious."  The info display gives details.  "Washer fluid low."
>> 
>> Even better is my car.  When it hits around an eighth of a tank, it
>> 'stutters', i.e. it reduces the throttle for a few moments, so that
>> you are aware that you are getting low on gas, but are not on reserve
>> yet. It is fun enough when you are just cruising down the road to
>> suddenly start slowing down for no apparent reason, but if you happen
>> to be accellerating, say from a stop at a red light, it will actually
>> kill the engine!  Real fun to find your self stopping dead in the
>> middle of a busy intersection trying to get your car to start again
>> (What?  Did you remember you need to be in Park to start the car?)
>> while cars going the other way are zipping around you...
>
>My favorite is a feature on Ford vehicles. You can speed limit the car. 
>I found this out when I rented a Ford Focus from ZipCar. I'm a left 
>lane, heavy footed driver and so I punched the accelerator. It limits at 
>80MPH and it warns you as it gets toward that limit. 


It's not on all Ford vehicles, and is also available on vehicles from
a variety of other manufacturers.  There are also innumerable
aftermarket kits you can install to do the same thing.  Primary market
is parents, rental agencies, and fleet users.  In some locations such
things are required by law for larger vehicles (for example all larger
trucks and busses in the UK all have a speed governor limiting them to
90 km/h*), although those tend not to be (end-user) programmable like
the typical ones for cars.

There have even been examples where different keys had different
limits.  Some Corvettes limited the speed and engine power when
started with the valet key, for example.

Some other cars have taken a monitoring approach instead - at least
one model of BMW allowed you to set a limit, and if it was exceeded,
an indicator on the dash would light and stay lit until it was reset
(which needed a password).  So it wouldn't prevent your kid from going
fast, but you'd know about it the next time you drove the car.


*FSVO "all": The limit has changed over time, and I don't know what
the grandfathering rules are, so it's possible some older vehicles
with slightly higher limits are still on the road, plus there are
vehicles that have a lower limit.

Tim Wescott wrote:
> Like a good percentage of human males, I'm partially color blind to green
> and red.  In my case, it's enough that I can't tell the difference
> between a green or a red LED -- so a piece of equipment that depends on
> the operator being able to see the color of a bi-color LED is totally
> useless to me.
>
> Needless to say, this is irritating.
>
> Does anyone on the group know how many people are really, truly tone
> deaf?  I don't just mean unable to hear when they're playing out of tune,
> but people who are unable to tell the difference between a "beep" and a
> "boop" when it's coming out of a piece of electronic equipment?
>
> I'm thinking of communicating status via a beeper, and for obvious
> reasons I don't want to do the same "bicolor LED" crap to someone, only
> with sound.
>
Too lazy to read all the posts, but a 1 second long solid tone is very 
different from 3 short tones.

Or as they use in the movies, blink (beep) once for yes, twice for no.

Scott