Graphics controller for PowerPC

Hello.

I am looking at some possible processor architectures for future products.

Intel offers some Pentium III and Pentium M derivatives plus chipsets 
that include peripherals and graphics controllers with 2D acceleration.

I have browsed through Freescale page looking at their several PPC 
families. There are some very interesting SOCs based on medium to high 
end CPUs (which I guess must be equivalent if not superior to the above 
x86 concerning processing power) with all sort of peripherals, floating 
point, even ethernet MACs but no graphics controller. I would appreciate 
insights on parts to perform such a function should I design products 
based on PPC.

TIA.

Elder.

> I have browsed through Freescale page looking at their several PPC
> families. There are some very interesting SOCs based on medium to
high
> end CPUs (which I guess must be equivalent if not superior to the
above

It seems that PPC does not directly target that market. The approach
I'm looking at is to use a PCI variant and an off-the-shelf PCI
graphics chip (or rather, a PCI slot), not that I like this idea much.

Elder Costa <elder.costa@terra.com.br> wrote :

> I have browsed through Freescale page looking at their several PPC
> families. There are some very interesting SOCs based on medium to
> high end CPUs (which I guess must be equivalent if not superior to
> the above x86 concerning processing power) with all sort of
> peripherals, floating point, even ethernet MACs but no graphics
> controller. I would appreciate insights on parts to perform such a
> function should I design products based on PPC.

almost all PPC SBCs have PCI, just look for some PCI graphic core with 
open specs (ATI comes to mind)



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larwe@larwe.com wrote:
>>I have browsed through Freescale page looking at their several PPC
>>families. There are some very interesting SOCs based on medium to
> 
> high
> 
>>end CPUs (which I guess must be equivalent if not superior to the
> 
> above
> 
> It seems that PPC does not directly target that market. The approach
> I'm looking at is to use a PCI variant and an off-the-shelf PCI
> graphics chip (or rather, a PCI slot), not that I like this idea much.
> 
Lewin and Rush. Good idea. The question is are there graphics 
controllers suited to embedded applications (that is, long term 
availability)? The last time I checked out (some years ago) the only 
chip that could fit this description was the C&T69000 which is (was?) a 
pretty decent component (at least for this kind of application). Any 
suggestions. Or we must be stuck to Intel as far as 
graphics+stability+medium to high end CPUs are concerned?

Regards.

Elder.

>The last time I checked out (some years ago) the only
>chip that could fit this description was the C&T69000 which is (was?)
a
>pretty decent component (at least for this kind of application). Any

Now Asiliant :) It's the oldest chip around, and it's quite popular, I
think it will probably be around for a few years more. But it's
horribly ancient technology. I don't think there's a good long-term
answer which is why I said I would put a PCI slot on it. Or MiniPCI, if
you're short of space.

> must be stuck to Intel as far as
> graphics+stability+medium to high end CPUs

I assume you're talking about XScale here. Be very wary of the
performance issue. If you use graphics on XScale, you rapidly chew up
the memory bandwidth.

There are other parts - MIPS based, for instance - which have graphics
and a high-end micro all in one. But overall if you need high
performance, you have to go with dedicated video RAM, which means an
external video device anyway. Look also at Epson and Seiko for VGA
controllers aimed at embedded applications. I'm not very familiar with
Seiko's parts but I know Epson's have been around for donkey's years
(although they're horrible to work with). Since both are targeted
specifically at embedded apps, I'd expect them to have reasonably good
longevity.

larwe@larwe.com wrote:
> think it will probably be around for a few years more. But it's
I checked it out just after posting. Asilients (WHT is this? :-) ) web 
site informs last buy was in april 2004.

> I assume you're talking about XScale here.
Not really. We are using PXA255 in some new low end/low cost designs 
(it's a pitty Cirrus' EP9307 wasn't around when we made the decision) 
and besides the memory bandwidth you pointed, it lacks floating point 
and so limits too much its usage for medium to high end deployment.

Intel does have some low power (for Intel's standards :-) ) processors 
plus associated chipsets (with graphics engine and other good stuff) 
labeled embedded and AFAIK Intel so far has honored its long term 
availability for these (so called) embedded components. There is some 
Celerons and Pentium M and they just added some new processors based on 
90nm. But x86 architecture is somewhat braindead (to my limited 
knowledge) due to its inheritance (16 bit legacy code compatibility and 
so). AMD Geode line is also a candidate but, in addition to the 
braindead issue, AMD has a negative record regarding embedded stuff 
(which is a pitty as their Alchemy processors are good stuff). I wonder 
how trustworthy is Via on this aspect. I am talking about 5 years+ 
availability.

Power PCs seem to be the best alternative as I am also considering the 
OS side.

> There are other parts - MIPS based, for instance - which have graphics
> and a high-end micro all in one. But overall if you need high
> performance, you have to go with dedicated video RAM, which means an
> external video device anyway. Look also at Epson and Seiko for VGA
> controllers aimed at embedded applications. I'm not very familiar with
> Seiko's parts but I know Epson's have been around for donkey's years
> (although they're horrible to work with). Since both are targeted
> specifically at embedded apps, I'd expect them to have reasonably good
> longevity.
> 
Epson does have graphics controllers that could fit (I need 1024x768 
resolution though 1268x1024 could be necessary in the future) but 
they've been around for a while so I wonder their long term availability.

On 8 Jan 2005 05:12:13 -0800, larwe@larwe.com wrote:

(snip)
>
>There are other parts - MIPS based, for instance - which have graphics
>and a high-end micro all in one. But overall if you need high
>performance, you have to go with dedicated video RAM, which means an
>external video device anyway. Look also at Epson and Seiko for VGA
>controllers aimed at embedded applications. I'm not very familiar with
>Seiko's parts but I know Epson's have been around for donkey's years
>(although they're horrible to work with). Since both are targeted
>specifically at embedded apps, I'd expect them to have reasonably good
>longevity.

Well, we needed a full industrial (-40�C to +85�C) video controller to
use with an MPC8250.  We selected the Eposn S1D13806.  We ran
production for just over a year, and then Epson discontinued it
without notice.  I hate it when that happens.   It's a shame, because
it had integrated SDRAM.  It was the perfect single-chip solution for
our application.

Now we are in the same boat of looking for a suitable replacement,
with full industrial specs.  And by the way, we don't want a PCI
interface.  We are thinking that we will have to use an
FPGA+SDRAM+video DAC, but this is going to use more real estate.  Any
ideas?

================================

Greg Neff
VP Engineering
*Microsym* Computers Inc.
greg@guesswhichwordgoeshere.com

Darn, this thread is like going to a school reunion and finding that
everyone you went to high school with died in a tragic hippopotamus
stampede.

>>Seiko's parts but I know Epson's have been around for donkey's years
>>(although they're horrible to work with). Since both are targeted
> 
> Well, we needed a full industrial (-40�C to +85�C) video controller to
> use with an MPC8250.  We selected the Eposn S1D13806.  We ran

Hmm. This chip is _really_ old. It was already a mature product when I
looked at it in 2000 or maybe even 1999 (it was called the SED1386 then).
But they described it as one of their best-selling products.

I guess I should be glad I unloaded the EVB on eBay some time ago ;)

> interface.  We are thinking that we will have to use an
> FPGA+SDRAM+video DAC, but this is going to use more real estate.  Any

I commiserate, but there aren't any GREAT solutions. The problem is that
the high-volume graphics solutions are driven by the PC market and have
consequently short lifespans - plus they're difficult to interface to
unless you have PCI/AGP. The embedded solutions are expensive and very
proprietary and it's hard to believe a vendor who says "we'll be there for
you in the future".

In my case, I didn't need enormous performance (I worked for the
now-defunct Digi-Frame Inc, doing digital multimedia appliances). So I
focused pretty much exclusively on micros with on-chip graphics
controllers. When we needed higher performance, we migrated to a SBC based
on Geode (this was, by the way, something of a mistake - see the various
horror stories I've posted on this). We started migrating to a Via-based
SBC but Digi-Frame folded before that ever became a reality.

This topic comes up in c.a.e periodically (I know I have started threads
on it at least four or five times :).

-- 
Here, in a large house, formerly a house of state, lives Mr. Tulkinghorn. It
is let off in sets of chambers now, and in those shrunken fragments of its
greatness, lawyers lie like maggots in nuts.

Lewin A.R.W. Edwards wrote:
> controllers. When we needed higher performance, we migrated to a SBC based
> on Geode (this was, by the way, something of a mistake - see the various
> horror stories I've posted on this). We started migrating to a Via-based

Would you mind to sumarize these horror stories? We've been using Geode 
for a while. We are having some problems with Linux+RTAI hanging every 
two weeks. Perhaps some of our problems are similar to yours.

Thanks.

Elder.

Greg Neff <greg@guesswhichwordgoeshere.com> writes:

>Well, we needed a full industrial (-40&#4294967295;C to +85&#4294967295;C) video controller to
>use with an MPC8250.  We selected the Eposn S1D13806.  We ran
>production for just over a year, and then Epson discontinued it
>without notice.  I hate it when that happens.   It's a shame, because
>it had integrated SDRAM.  It was the perfect single-chip solution for
>our application.

>Now we are in the same boat of looking for a suitable replacement,
>with full industrial specs.  And by the way, we don't want a PCI
>interface.  We are thinking that we will have to use an
>FPGA+SDRAM+video DAC, but this is going to use more real estate.  Any
>ideas?

Coral-P, Coral-Q ?

Best regards,

Wolfgang Denk

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