Anyone have experience with the e-Paper displays from Pervasive? They are the only company I have found making e-Paper displays that are rated for temps below freezing. But they are very cagey with the info on driving them. They resell a controller module from a third party who makes the controller chip which is *not* rated for the full temperature range of the display oddly enough. If it were just for evaluation that would be one thing, but this controller chip or module is what they sell for *all* use of the display. I've been trying for over two weeks to either get info saying the controller is rated for the full temperature range of the display. Or if they don't have that, I'd like details on how to drive the display module directly. They won't say why, but so far they have refused to disclose any info on driving these displays. Even if I don't appreciate it, I would understand if they just weren't interested in a small volume user. But so far the contact has been willing to discuss this with me with several emails and a couple of phone calls. So it's not like they just want me to go away. What's up with this e-Ink display technology? It seems like no one is making any real effort to make it a mainstream product. I guess regardless of how much they are willing to talk to me, they really are only interested in the bigger players? -- Rick
Pervasive e-Paper Displays
Started by ●July 1, 2015
Reply by ●July 1, 20152015-07-01
On 02.7.2015 г. 04:00, rickman wrote:> Anyone have experience with the e-Paper displays from Pervasive? They > are the only company I have found making e-Paper displays that are rated > for temps below freezing. But they are very cagey with the info on > driving them. They resell a controller module from a third party who > makes the controller chip which is *not* rated for the full temperature > range of the display oddly enough. If it were just for evaluation that > would be one thing, but this controller chip or module is what they sell > for *all* use of the display. > > I've been trying for over two weeks to either get info saying the > controller is rated for the full temperature range of the display. Or > if they don't have that, I'd like details on how to drive the display > module directly. They won't say why, but so far they have refused to > disclose any info on driving these displays. > > Even if I don't appreciate it, I would understand if they just weren't > interested in a small volume user. But so far the contact has been > willing to discuss this with me with several emails and a couple of > phone calls. So it's not like they just want me to go away. > > What's up with this e-Ink display technology? It seems like no one is > making any real effort to make it a mainstream product. I guess > regardless of how much they are willing to talk to me, they really are > only interested in the bigger players? >If they were just not wanting small customers they would simply put the datasheet online. The industry is closing up, there are a few big players with access to everything - those making PC-s and phones - and the rest of us are supposed to die out. Which eventually will happen of course but they seem too hasty about it IMO, perhaps still not certain enough about their position - no matter how rock solid it may seem from outside. Dimiter ------------------------------------------------------ Dimiter Popoff Transgalactic Instruments http://www.tgi-sci.com ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/sets/72157600228621276/
Reply by ●July 1, 20152015-07-01
On 7/1/2015 9:11 PM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:> On 02.7.2015 г. 04:00, rickman wrote: >> Anyone have experience with the e-Paper displays from Pervasive? They >> are the only company I have found making e-Paper displays that are rated >> for temps below freezing. But they are very cagey with the info on >> driving them. They resell a controller module from a third party who >> makes the controller chip which is *not* rated for the full temperature >> range of the display oddly enough. If it were just for evaluation that >> would be one thing, but this controller chip or module is what they sell >> for *all* use of the display. >> >> I've been trying for over two weeks to either get info saying the >> controller is rated for the full temperature range of the display. Or >> if they don't have that, I'd like details on how to drive the display >> module directly. They won't say why, but so far they have refused to >> disclose any info on driving these displays. >> >> Even if I don't appreciate it, I would understand if they just weren't >> interested in a small volume user. But so far the contact has been >> willing to discuss this with me with several emails and a couple of >> phone calls. So it's not like they just want me to go away. >> >> What's up with this e-Ink display technology? It seems like no one is >> making any real effort to make it a mainstream product. I guess >> regardless of how much they are willing to talk to me, they really are >> only interested in the bigger players? >> > > If they were just not wanting small customers they would simply put > the datasheet online. > The industry is closing up, there are a few big players with access > to everything - those making PC-s and phones - and the rest of us > are supposed to die out. Which eventually will happen of course > but they seem too hasty about it IMO, perhaps still not certain > enough about their position - no matter how rock solid it may > seem from outside.There will always be the smaller buyers of any good. Cell phones and watches aren't the only place where displays will be used and 4.4 to 10 inch displays will never be in those products. Further, they are doing just fine with standard temperature displays. Heck, if that is the only market they were going for, they would require me to sign an agreement to buy a million dollars worth of goods like TI asked me to do once. So clearly they want to sell these displays. I just don't get their methods. One thing I didn't mention is that their new line coming out will include the display controller on the display. But that won't be the wide temperature. So that still doesn't explain their reluctance to fully support these displays for the masses. There are even two, count 'em *two* Kickstarter campaigns for their smaller displays which don't require the separate controller chip. I'm pretty sure these guys are getting support from Pervasive. -- Rick
Reply by ●July 1, 20152015-07-01
On 02.7.2015 г. 05:05, rickman wrote:> On 7/1/2015 9:11 PM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote: >> On 02.7.2015 г. 04:00, rickman wrote: >>> Anyone have experience with the e-Paper displays from Pervasive? They >>> are the only company I have found making e-Paper displays that are rated >>> for temps below freezing. But they are very cagey with the info on >>> driving them. They resell a controller module from a third party who >>> makes the controller chip which is *not* rated for the full temperature >>> range of the display oddly enough. If it were just for evaluation that >>> would be one thing, but this controller chip or module is what they sell >>> for *all* use of the display. >>> >>> I've been trying for over two weeks to either get info saying the >>> controller is rated for the full temperature range of the display. Or >>> if they don't have that, I'd like details on how to drive the display >>> module directly. They won't say why, but so far they have refused to >>> disclose any info on driving these displays. >>> >>> Even if I don't appreciate it, I would understand if they just weren't >>> interested in a small volume user. But so far the contact has been >>> willing to discuss this with me with several emails and a couple of >>> phone calls. So it's not like they just want me to go away. >>> >>> What's up with this e-Ink display technology? It seems like no one is >>> making any real effort to make it a mainstream product. I guess >>> regardless of how much they are willing to talk to me, they really are >>> only interested in the bigger players? >>> >> >> If they were just not wanting small customers they would simply put >> the datasheet online. >> The industry is closing up, there are a few big players with access >> to everything - those making PC-s and phones - and the rest of us >> are supposed to die out. Which eventually will happen of course >> but they seem too hasty about it IMO, perhaps still not certain >> enough about their position - no matter how rock solid it may >> seem from outside. > > There will always be the smaller buyers of any good. Cell phones and > watches aren't the only place where displays will be used and 4.4 to 10 > inch displays will never be in those products. Further, they are doing > just fine with standard temperature displays. Heck, if that is the only > market they were going for, they would require me to sign an agreement > to buy a million dollars worth of goods like TI asked me to do once. > > So clearly they want to sell these displays. I just don't get their > methods. > > One thing I didn't mention is that their new line coming out will > include the display controller on the display. But that won't be the > wide temperature. So that still doesn't explain their reluctance to > fully support these displays for the masses. There are even two, count > 'em *two* Kickstarter campaigns for their smaller displays which don't > require the separate controller chip. I'm pretty sure these guys are > getting support from Pervasive. >Who knows, we can only speculate of course. Perhaps they have to sell the display itself too cheap to be competitive and hope to make up by adding the price of the controller (not sure at all this is a possible scenario). But display controllers are extinct on the market so may be this is it. Or may be there are some technical details not speaking well about them and they do not want to show them... Anybody's guess. Dimiter ------------------------------------------------------ Dimiter Popoff Transgalactic Instruments http://www.tgi-sci.com ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.flickr.com/photos/
Reply by ●July 1, 20152015-07-01
On 7/1/2015 10:13 PM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:> > Who knows, we can only speculate of course. Perhaps they have to sell > the display itself too cheap to be competitive and hope to make up > by adding the price of the controller (not sure at all this is a > possible scenario). > But display controllers are extinct on the market so may be this is > it. Or may be there are some technical details not speaking well > about them and they do not want to show them... Anybody's guess.How do you mean display controllers are extinct? Or do you mean separate display controllers? Or maybe you are saying the controller is typically built into the CPU? One of the things I have given thought to for these displays is to do a daughter board for the BBB or rPi. A small FPGA would be ideal and there are a few that would be very low power too. The BBB has several size displays available up to 7 inches, but not e-paper. -- Rick
Reply by ●July 1, 20152015-07-01
On 02.7.2015 г. 05:20, rickman wrote:> On 7/1/2015 10:13 PM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote: >> >> Who knows, we can only speculate of course. Perhaps they have to sell >> the display itself too cheap to be competitive and hope to make up >> by adding the price of the controller (not sure at all this is a >> possible scenario). >> But display controllers are extinct on the market so may be this is >> it. Or may be there are some technical details not speaking well >> about them and they do not want to show them... Anybody's guess. > > How do you mean display controllers are extinct? Or do you mean > separate display controllers? Or maybe you are saying the controller is > typically built into the CPU? >I mean both, it is impossible to get a PCI/PCIe display controller nowadays to just use. You have to build it yourself - FPGA or whatever. I am considering certain choices (vaguely, have not started real work on it but I guess I'll have to design yet another display controller, last time the b69030 just did the job for me and saved me the effort. But I have lost count of the display controllers I have designed over the past 30 years so one more won't make much of a difference).> One of the things I have given thought to for these displays is to do a > daughter board for the BBB or rPi. A small FPGA would be ideal and > there are a few that would be very low power too. The BBB has several > size displays available up to 7 inches, but not e-paper. >Well yes, nowadays things with a display are much easier to find. My current flagship product uses exactly that, has all it takes on board except for a display - and a PC or tablet etc. is used to access it via VNC over the net (pixels moved over Ethernet rather than over the VGA cable :-) ). But apparently your e-paper requirement does not make it easy, if it is so hard to get data on how to drive a display module (I have never used one, just "normal" TFT etc.). Perhaps you can look around for similar sorts of displays and get a feeling how it is done, may still be doable with some (or some more...) guesswork. Dimiter ------------------------------------------------------ Dimiter Popoff Transgalactic Instruments http://www.tgi-sci.com ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/
Reply by ●July 2, 20152015-07-02
On 7/1/2015 10:41 PM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:> On 02.7.2015 г. 05:20, rickman wrote: >> On 7/1/2015 10:13 PM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote: >>> >>> Who knows, we can only speculate of course. Perhaps they have to sell >>> the display itself too cheap to be competitive and hope to make up >>> by adding the price of the controller (not sure at all this is a >>> possible scenario). >>> But display controllers are extinct on the market so may be this is >>> it. Or may be there are some technical details not speaking well >>> about them and they do not want to show them... Anybody's guess. >> >> How do you mean display controllers are extinct? Or do you mean >> separate display controllers? Or maybe you are saying the controller is >> typically built into the CPU? >> > > I mean both, it is impossible to get a PCI/PCIe display controller > nowadays to just use. You have to build it yourself - FPGA or whatever. > I am considering certain choices (vaguely, have not started real work > on it but I guess I'll have to design yet another display controller, > last time the b69030 just did the job for me and saved me the effort. > But I have lost count of the display controllers I have designed over > the past 30 years so one more won't make much of a difference). > >> One of the things I have given thought to for these displays is to do a >> daughter board for the BBB or rPi. A small FPGA would be ideal and >> there are a few that would be very low power too. The BBB has several >> size displays available up to 7 inches, but not e-paper. >> > > Well yes, nowadays things with a display are much easier to find. > My current flagship product uses exactly that, has all it takes > on board except for a display - and a PC or tablet etc. is used > to access it via VNC over the net (pixels moved over Ethernet > rather than over the VGA cable :-) ). > But apparently your e-paper requirement does not make it easy, > if it is so hard to get data on how to drive a display module > (I have never used one, just "normal" TFT etc.). > Perhaps you can look around for similar sorts of displays > and get a feeling how it is done, may still be doable with > some (or some more...) guesswork.Yeah, others have suggested the reverse engineering approach. I could just buy their unit and copy it's functionality. If I am going to offer a product I want to be able to say that it meets design criteria. If I am operating the display contrary to the maker's instructions (not using their controller) I won't feel comfortable with that. I'm still in dialog with the Pervasive contact. I'm willing to use their controller board if it can do the temperatures. If it can't, they need to explain what gives. The only controller solution they support doesn't meet the same temperature spec as the display? Heck, it doesn't even meet the temp spec of the standard temp range display, 40 °C rather than 50 °C at the high end. If I have to, I can heat the display when cold, but I'm not going to build in a refrigeration unit. BTW, why is it *re*frigeration rather than just frigeration? Is the idea that this is getting cold again? lol -- Rick
Reply by ●July 2, 20152015-07-02
On 02.7.2015 г. 06:17, rickman wrote:> On 7/1/2015 10:41 PM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote: >> On 02.7.2015 г. 05:20, rickman wrote: >>> On 7/1/2015 10:13 PM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote: >>>> >>>> Who knows, we can only speculate of course. Perhaps they have to sell >>>> the display itself too cheap to be competitive and hope to make up >>>> by adding the price of the controller (not sure at all this is a >>>> possible scenario). >>>> But display controllers are extinct on the market so may be this is >>>> it. Or may be there are some technical details not speaking well >>>> about them and they do not want to show them... Anybody's guess. >>> >>> How do you mean display controllers are extinct? Or do you mean >>> separate display controllers? Or maybe you are saying the controller is >>> typically built into the CPU? >>> >> >> I mean both, it is impossible to get a PCI/PCIe display controller >> nowadays to just use. You have to build it yourself - FPGA or whatever. >> I am considering certain choices (vaguely, have not started real work >> on it but I guess I'll have to design yet another display controller, >> last time the b69030 just did the job for me and saved me the effort. >> But I have lost count of the display controllers I have designed over >> the past 30 years so one more won't make much of a difference). >> >>> One of the things I have given thought to for these displays is to do a >>> daughter board for the BBB or rPi. A small FPGA would be ideal and >>> there are a few that would be very low power too. The BBB has several >>> size displays available up to 7 inches, but not e-paper. >>> >> >> Well yes, nowadays things with a display are much easier to find. >> My current flagship product uses exactly that, has all it takes >> on board except for a display - and a PC or tablet etc. is used >> to access it via VNC over the net (pixels moved over Ethernet >> rather than over the VGA cable :-) ). >> But apparently your e-paper requirement does not make it easy, >> if it is so hard to get data on how to drive a display module >> (I have never used one, just "normal" TFT etc.). >> Perhaps you can look around for similar sorts of displays >> and get a feeling how it is done, may still be doable with >> some (or some more...) guesswork. > > Yeah, others have suggested the reverse engineering approach. I could > just buy their unit and copy it's functionality. If I am going to offer > a product I want to be able to say that it meets design criteria. If I > am operating the display contrary to the maker's instructions (not using > their controller) I won't feel comfortable with that. > > I'm still in dialog with the Pervasive contact. I'm willing to use > their controller board if it can do the temperatures. If it can't, they > need to explain what gives. The only controller solution they support > doesn't meet the same temperature spec as the display? Heck, it doesn't > even meet the temp spec of the standard temp range display, 40 °C rather > than 50 °C at the high end. If I have to, I can heat the display when > cold, but I'm not going to build in a refrigeration unit.May be they are still trying things out - or rather have the guy who designed the controller try things out and make it work over temp. Beats me how they can make a display module and not a controller to match its not that wide temp range but there you go... Much of it might boil down to the "click and expect" generation taking over, what do we know. There was no option for this temp range on the drop down menu... :D.> > BTW, why is it *re*frigeration rather than just frigeration? Is the > idea that this is getting cold again? lol >And then we still say "fridge" - go figure. Perhaps the "re" comes from the market introduction days, people have bought frozen things and could then re-frigerate them, lol, my chances to guess that are worse than these of a native English speaker. Dimiter
Reply by ●July 2, 20152015-07-02
On 7/1/2015 11:31 PM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:> On 02.7.2015 г. 06:17, rickman wrote: >> On 7/1/2015 10:41 PM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote: >>> On 02.7.2015 г. 05:20, rickman wrote: >>>> On 7/1/2015 10:13 PM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Who knows, we can only speculate of course. Perhaps they have to sell >>>>> the display itself too cheap to be competitive and hope to make up >>>>> by adding the price of the controller (not sure at all this is a >>>>> possible scenario). >>>>> But display controllers are extinct on the market so may be this is >>>>> it. Or may be there are some technical details not speaking well >>>>> about them and they do not want to show them... Anybody's guess. >>>> >>>> How do you mean display controllers are extinct? Or do you mean >>>> separate display controllers? Or maybe you are saying the >>>> controller is >>>> typically built into the CPU? >>>> >>> >>> I mean both, it is impossible to get a PCI/PCIe display controller >>> nowadays to just use. You have to build it yourself - FPGA or whatever. >>> I am considering certain choices (vaguely, have not started real work >>> on it but I guess I'll have to design yet another display controller, >>> last time the b69030 just did the job for me and saved me the effort. >>> But I have lost count of the display controllers I have designed over >>> the past 30 years so one more won't make much of a difference).We are talking about two different types of displays. e-paper is virtually static display only. Even at room temperature the updates take on the order of a second rather than frames per second. In colder temps it ranges up to nearly 5 seconds. So PCIe is not even in the picture. SPI is the appropriate interface. When I talk about controllers I am referring to something like the Hitachi chips that are so popular with the two or four line alphanumeric displays. I don't know if there is a graphic equivalent, but this is just a way to get the data to the display without much complication. I did find a similar technology called electrowetting (EWD) which can update fast enough for video and can be either front lit or back lit. Front lit includes room lighting like other e-paper displays. It is also a color technology. I can't find if it is bi-stable or not. Then there is one that uses MEMS which is similar and is bi-stable... I think. Hard to keep it all in my head. Neither one is quite ready for prime time. Not sure what is holding back Liquavista's EWD displays, but I think I read they aren't going to make displays anymore, but are planning to license the technology. The MEMS technology currently uses multiple elements to get color and they are working on a new version that yields different colors from each element, so one element per pixel. I think the MEMS was the one that I read was designed into some product but they couldn't get the yield high enough to actually produce them. Maybe in another year or two.>> Yeah, others have suggested the reverse engineering approach. I could >> just buy their unit and copy it's functionality. If I am going to offer >> a product I want to be able to say that it meets design criteria. If I >> am operating the display contrary to the maker's instructions (not using >> their controller) I won't feel comfortable with that. >> >> I'm still in dialog with the Pervasive contact. I'm willing to use >> their controller board if it can do the temperatures. If it can't, they >> need to explain what gives. The only controller solution they support >> doesn't meet the same temperature spec as the display? Heck, it doesn't >> even meet the temp spec of the standard temp range display, 40 °C rather >> than 50 °C at the high end. If I have to, I can heat the display when >> cold, but I'm not going to build in a refrigeration unit. > > May be they are still trying things out - or rather have the guy > who designed the controller try things out and make it work over > temp. Beats me how they can make a display module and not a > controller to match its not that wide temp range but there you > go... Much of it might boil down to the "click and expect" > generation taking over, what do we know. There was no option > for this temp range on the drop down menu... :D.I don't really have a clue. As you say it's a more narrow temp range than even commercial which nearly *all* ICs will meet. They list three different chips for the three larger display sizes. One is 0 to 50 °C while the other two are 0 to 40 °C. The 50 °C one isn't for the smallest display either, so I don't get it at all.>> BTW, why is it *re*frigeration rather than just frigeration? Is the >> idea that this is getting cold again? lol >> > > And then we still say "fridge" - go figure. Perhaps the "re" comes from > the market introduction days, people have bought frozen things and could > then re-frigerate them, lol, my chances to guess that are worse than > these of a native English speaker.I know where "fridge" comes from, short for the brand name Frigidaire. You know, frigid - air. Besides, Refrigidaire sounds pretty goofy. lol -- Rick
Reply by ●July 2, 20152015-07-02
rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:> One of the things I have given thought to for these displays is to do > a daughter board for the BBB or rPi. A small FPGA would be ideal and > there are a few that would be very low power too. The BBB has several > size displays available up to 7 inches, but not e-paper.Not sure what you mean here but there are several FPGA boards for both the Rpi and the BBB, and several e-paper boards too (search on adafruit.com for example). The biggest is 2.8" or something like that. I'd sure like having a bigger one, like a Kindle.
