Pervasive e-Paper Displays

On 7/2/2015 1:16 AM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
>> One of the things I have given thought to for these displays is to do
>> a daughter board for the BBB or rPi.  A small FPGA would be ideal and
>> there are a few that would be very low power too.  The BBB has several
>> size displays available up to 7 inches, but not e-paper.
>
> Not sure what you mean here but there are several FPGA boards for both
> the Rpi and the BBB, and several e-paper boards too (search on
> adafruit.com for example).  The biggest is 2.8" or something like that.
> I'd sure like having a bigger one, like a Kindle.

2.7 inches I believe and that is pretty durn small.  The one I wish to 
use in a product is 4.4 inches but none are very high resolution.  The 
4.4 inch display is only 400x300, but good enough for my product idea.

If you want an epaper display, there is a 6 inch display from  Good 
Display that is 800x600 I believe.  I see it on Alibaba a lot.  Not sure 
if it needs anything special to drive it.  It even has optional touch 
screen and front light, but is standard temp range, 0 to 50 &#4294967295;C, so no 
good to me.  I can get you a part number if you want.

Pervasive has their new 4 inch display coming out with the integrated 
controller.  I think it is 400 by a bit under 300.  Can be directly 
controlled via SPI and maybe a couple of GPIOs for the misc stuff like 
power down.

I haven't seen anything else that is commonly available with info on 
using it.  Alibaba and some other middleman sites have displays for 
various eReaders, but no info on using them.

ePaper is definitely available for use, but not a lot of options and not 
very good support.  I guess they still wish to cater to the big 
customers who they will hand hold.

BTW, I just want to remind you that epaper is only low power when you 
don't update the display.  An update uses a fair bit of power.  Nothing 
insane, but far from microamps.

-- 

Rick

rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
> 2.7 inches I believe and that is pretty durn small.  The one I wish to
> use in a product is 4.4 inches but none are very high resolution.  The
> 4.4 inch display is only 400x300, but good enough for my product idea.

4.4 inches is phone sized, I guess.  I assume you've got some
application for your customer but I've been sort of wondering what to do
with such a thing (I was actually thinking of the 2 inch ones) as a
generic product.  Outdoor box with BBB inside and display on the front.
I keep thinking a regular small reflective LCD would work about as well.
Most stuff to display either would be just a little bit of data
(temperature and stuff, works fine on a 2 line display) or would be
completely static (could be printed on a card).  Higher volume info
could be presented to a phone, since the person might want to save it
anyway.  You've probably thought of uses I haven't though.

> If you want an epaper display, there is a 6 inch display from Good
> Display that is 800x600 I believe....  I can get you a part number if
> you want.

Hmm, that's good to know.  I know that some old versions of the Barnes &
Noble Nook (Kindle competitor) ran Android under the covers, and were
jail-breakable, so if I just wanted to mess with an epaper reader it
might be easiest to get one of those.

Quick web search found this and similar: 
http://smart-prototyping.com/E-ink-E-paper-display-IPS-6-inch-GDE06-800x600.html

They also have some smaller and bigger (8 inch) ones.

Hmm, how about this:

http://www.eink.com/press_releases/e_ink_introduces_aurora_052113.html

    May 21, 2013 ... E Ink Holdings... today announced the upcoming
    release of E Ink Aurora, a first-of-its-kind electronic paper
    display (EPD) able to withstand freezer's temperatures....
    Providing low power usage and cost optimization through a 5-volt
    driving capability, Aurora supports applications in conditions as
    cold as -25 C.

And here's some control chips:

    http://global.epson.com/newsroom/2012/news_20120116.html

> BTW, I just want to remind you that epaper is only low power when you
> don't update the display.  An update uses a fair bit of power.
> Nothing insane, but far from microamps.

Yeah I know about that.  The very slow update rate is also not so nice.

There used to be laptops with reflective monochrome lcd's, some of which
were pretty good--highly readable indoors and out.  But they don't seem
to make them any more.

The Pixel Qi display (color, reflective, backlit) might be of interest.

Why epaper if you don't mind my asking?  Just cause it's cool?

On 7/2/2015 3:12 AM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
>> 2.7 inches I believe and that is pretty durn small.  The one I wish to
>> use in a product is 4.4 inches but none are very high resolution.  The
>> 4.4 inch display is only 400x300, but good enough for my product idea.
>
> 4.4 inches is phone sized, I guess.  I assume you've got some
> application for your customer but I've been sort of wondering what to do
> with such a thing (I was actually thinking of the 2 inch ones) as a
> generic product.  Outdoor box with BBB inside and display on the front.
> I keep thinking a regular small reflective LCD would work about as well.

Reflective doesn't work very well in dim lighting.  ePaper works over a 
much wider illumination range.  LCD also is only rated to freezing 
without heating.


> Most stuff to display either would be just a little bit of data
> (temperature and stuff, works fine on a 2 line display) or would be
> completely static (could be printed on a card).  Higher volume info
> could be presented to a phone, since the person might want to save it
> anyway.  You've probably thought of uses I haven't though.

My initial target is commercial, weatherproof box, hamfist buttons, no 
touch screen.


>> If you want an epaper display, there is a 6 inch display from Good
>> Display that is 800x600 I believe....  I can get you a part number if
>> you want.
>
> Hmm, that's good to know.  I know that some old versions of the Barnes &
> Noble Nook (Kindle competitor) ran Android under the covers, and were
> jail-breakable, so if I just wanted to mess with an epaper reader it
> might be easiest to get one of those.
>
> Quick web search found this and similar:
> http://smart-prototyping.com/E-ink-E-paper-display-IPS-6-inch-GDE06-800x600.html

I expect that is the same one I am referring to.  Other than the ones 
literally made for eReaders, these two are the only makers I found.


> They also have some smaller and bigger (8 inch) ones.
>
> Hmm, how about this:
>
> http://www.eink.com/press_releases/e_ink_introduces_aurora_052113.html
>
>      May 21, 2013 ... E Ink Holdings... today announced the upcoming
>      release of E Ink Aurora, a first-of-its-kind electronic paper
>      display (EPD) able to withstand freezer's temperatures....
>      Providing low power usage and cost optimization through a 5-volt
>      driving capability, Aurora supports applications in conditions as
>      cold as -25 C.

Aurora is the display technology and Pervasive is the only company 
selling them to the general public.  Digikey has them.


> And here's some control chips:
>
>      http://global.epson.com/newsroom/2012/news_20120116.html

Does Epson say they work with the Pervasive Aurora displays?  Pervasive 
doesn't.  The three larger Aurora displays are different from the 
smaller ones.  The small ones have an SPI port and a few discrete 
controls.  It appears that the entire controller is inside.  The larger 
displays have the same interfaces, but it seems that is not enough as 
they also require a separate controller.  The 7 and 10 inch displays 
have two connectors which makes me think they have two sections, 
separately controlled.  Mpicosys makes the external controller.  Maybe 
Epson makes the internal controller.


>> BTW, I just want to remind you that epaper is only low power when you
>> don't update the display.  An update uses a fair bit of power.
>> Nothing insane, but far from microamps.
>
> Yeah I know about that.  The very slow update rate is also not so nice.
>
> There used to be laptops with reflective monochrome lcd's, some of which
> were pretty good--highly readable indoors and out.  But they don't seem
> to make them any more.

I've read some reports of new reflective displays, but I haven't seen 
anything I can buy.


> The Pixel Qi display (color, reflective, backlit) might be of interest.

Anyone actually selling them?  Most of the new technologies are talked 
about and may appear in an eReader or tablet, but you and I can't get them.


> Why epaper if you don't mind my asking?  Just cause it's cool?

High visibility and wide temperature range.  Otherwise I need to go with 
OLED or possibly EL (at a very high power consumption).  I don't think I 
have found a graphic OLED display, just alphanumeric.  I'd like 
something around 5 inches but has to work in the outdoor temp range.

-- 

Rick

On 7/1/2015 9:00 PM, rickman wrote:
> Anyone have experience with the e-Paper displays from Pervasive? They
> are the only company I have found making e-Paper displays that are rated
> for temps below freezing.  But they are very cagey with the info on
> driving them.  They resell a controller module from a third party who
> makes the controller chip which is *not* rated for the full temperature
> range of the display oddly enough.  If it were just for evaluation that
> would be one thing, but this controller chip or module is what they sell
> for *all* use of the display.
>
> I've been trying for over two weeks to either get info saying the
> controller is rated for the full temperature range of the display.  Or
> if they don't have that, I'd like details on how to drive the display
> module directly.  They won't say why, but so far they have refused to
> disclose any info on driving these displays.
>
> Even if I don't appreciate it, I would understand if they just weren't
> interested in a small volume user.  But so far the contact has been
> willing to discuss this with me with several emails and a couple of
> phone calls.  So it's not like they just want me to go away.
>
> What's up with this e-Ink display technology?  It seems like no one is
> making any real effort to make it a mainstream product.  I guess
> regardless of how much they are willing to talk to me, they really are
> only interested in the bigger players?

I think I have cracked the code with Pervasive Displays.  Seems they 
have gone to a fair amount of trouble to develop and promote an e-paper 
display that works down to -25 �C, but then hamstrung it by pairing it 
with a controller that is only rated for 0 �C.  The controller even 
limits the high end to 40 �C rather than the 50 �C of the display. 
Heck, this controller even limits the temperature range of the 
*standard* display which is rated up to 50 �C.

I suppose if your use case is to update price labels in a 
refrigerator/freezer periodically and the display controller is in the 
updating unit which does not spend much time in the cooler, this will 
work.  For any outdoor usage this is pointless.  It was only now that I 
realized why this pairing was made.

The last response from Pervasive on this matter seems to be saying they 
are contractually obligated to only sell and support the Mpicosys 
controller for their 4.41, 7 and 10 inch displays in both standard and 
wide temperature ranges.  It's a durn shame.  I guess the marketeers 
felt this was a workable approach.  They clearly don't see usage other 
than retail price signs to be much of a market.  Maybe they need to 
watch Warehouse 13.  It gets pretty cold in the Dakotas doesn't it?

-- 

Rick

On 7/2/2015 2:18 PM, rickman wrote:
> On 7/1/2015 9:00 PM, rickman wrote:
>> Anyone have experience with the e-Paper displays from Pervasive? They
>> are the only company I have found making e-Paper displays that are rated
>> for temps below freezing.  But they are very cagey with the info on
>> driving them.  They resell a controller module from a third party who
>> makes the controller chip which is *not* rated for the full temperature
>> range of the display oddly enough.  If it were just for evaluation that
>> would be one thing, but this controller chip or module is what they sell
>> for *all* use of the display.
>>
>> I've been trying for over two weeks to either get info saying the
>> controller is rated for the full temperature range of the display.  Or
>> if they don't have that, I'd like details on how to drive the display
>> module directly.  They won't say why, but so far they have refused to
>> disclose any info on driving these displays.
>>
>> Even if I don't appreciate it, I would understand if they just weren't
>> interested in a small volume user.  But so far the contact has been
>> willing to discuss this with me with several emails and a couple of
>> phone calls.  So it's not like they just want me to go away.
>>
>> What's up with this e-Ink display technology?  It seems like no one is
>> making any real effort to make it a mainstream product.  I guess
>> regardless of how much they are willing to talk to me, they really are
>> only interested in the bigger players?
>
> I think I have cracked the code with Pervasive Displays.  Seems they
> have gone to a fair amount of trouble to develop and promote an e-paper
> display that works down to -25 �C, but then hamstrung it by pairing it
> with a controller that is only rated for 0 �C.  The controller even
> limits the high end to 40 �C rather than the 50 �C of the display. Heck,
> this controller even limits the temperature range of the *standard*
> display which is rated up to 50 �C.
>
> I suppose if your use case is to update price labels in a
> refrigerator/freezer periodically and the display controller is in the
> updating unit which does not spend much time in the cooler, this will
> work.  For any outdoor usage this is pointless.  It was only now that I
> realized why this pairing was made.
>
> The last response from Pervasive on this matter seems to be saying they
> are contractually obligated to only sell and support the Mpicosys
> controller for their 4.41, 7 and 10 inch displays in both standard and
> wide temperature ranges.  It's a durn shame.  I guess the marketeers
> felt this was a workable approach.  They clearly don't see usage other
> than retail price signs to be much of a market.  Maybe they need to
> watch Warehouse 13.  It gets pretty cold in the Dakotas doesn't it?

For anyone interested I've obtained another data point.  I heard back 
from Mpicosys, the maker of the controller.  They say the PDI spec on 
the display "changed" after they produced their controller and so they 
have never updated the data sheet.  I guess that means they designed 
their controller for the standard temp display and now PDI is using it 
for the extended temperature range.  Oddly enough they say there is a 
problem between  40 and 50 �C that makes one pixel wide features fuzzy. 
  Not sure why this would happen.  They say the contrast will drop 
between  0 �C and -25 �C.  I assume this is because they stop 
lengthening the update time at the original design target of 0 �C.

I have to assume the extended temperature range of the Aurora e-Ink 
displays was an afterthought where they realized it could be done by 
slightly modifying the spec or a very minor mod to the production 
process.  Mpicosys had already completed their controller design and has 
not made any updates to accommodate this wider temperature range.  The 
market is not especially large so neither party is putting much effort 
into it.

Maybe OLEDs are looking good.  lol

-- 

Rick

I've been working on a project recently with Pervasive Displays EInk displays. Their smaller screens are easy to use as there are many libraries out there to help interface with them. However, our team needed to use 4.41" screens and were unable to find adequate drivers for it.

I have just released a very early driver for it open sourced here:
https://github.com/dbrody/PDEInkDriver

I would love to get additional members contributing to it and making it better.

Let me know what you think!

On 1/7/2016 9:02 PM, dbrody@ideo.com wrote:
> I've been working on a project recently with Pervasive Displays EInk displays. Their smaller screens are easy to use as there are many libraries out there to help interface with them. However, our team needed to use 4.41" screens and were unable to find adequate drivers for it.
>
> I have just released a very early driver for it open sourced here:
> https://github.com/dbrody/PDEInkDriver
>
> I would love to get additional members contributing to it and making it better.
>
> Let me know what you think!

Hi, it's great that you released a driver.  Exactly what hardware does 
this work with?  The 4.41" Pervasive display I found requires a hardware 
timing controller.  I wanted to use the display in extended temperatures 
(outdoors) and the timing controller is not really rated for this.

What is your app?

-- 

Rick